Player Complaint: Adam Evans, K0NFL1QT, CMO.

[SomeoneOutTher3]

BYOND Key: ) SomeoneOutThere

Game ID: bSG0Wf

Player Byond Key: K0NFL1QT

Staff involved: Alberyk, TheMuncorn

Reason for complaint: Borderline- Ramboing a massive hostage situation and endangering the hostages.

During the round in question, I was a traitor. For two hours, I went about my normal non-antag business, since I didn't have ideas for what I should do as a traitor. Then, the detective, Connor Scott (Wesmas), told me that we should take the bar hostages, where a grand total of six people were located(!!!). We made some preparations for the situation, including getting tommyguns and their ammunition, making potassium chlorophoride smoke grenades in case we got roasted (Chlorophoride is highly lethal), and donning gas masks and goggles. We then stormed the bar and took everyone hostage, this went somewhat well. Then, security and the Captain arrived on the scene, and we demanded all the wealth in the vault, plus a mech. Due to some earlier shenanigans, a hostage was wounded by gunfire, so we let the CMO in to treat them. This is where it all went to hell. After treating the wounded hostage, the CMO, KONFLIQT, jabbed both of us with a hypospray containing chloral hydrate. This is the part in question I am making a complaint about, as this is something I believe constitutes ramboing a hostage situation. Realistically, we would see the CMO coming up behind us and jabbing us with a hypospray, not to mention that such a stunt instantly annihilated all roleplay that we were working towards. So here I am,making a player complaint against the CMO for pulling a stunt like that.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes,I adminhelped the issue. It was decided that the issue was IC, but a complaint would be valid.

Approximate Date/Time: 3:30 PM, American Central.

[veradox]

the situation was witnessed entirely from the point of the wounded hostage all the way to the completion of the situation

the CMO, being a head of staff granted with the necessity to overwatch and ensure the good health of the crew, was similarly granted time prior to and during the dealing with of the injured personnel within the bar. he was invited in, even rushed inside, without meeting the concerns and stipulations requested by the hostage takers of sending a 'nude doctor' inside. that was their first mistake.

their second mistake resulted in both turning their back entirely from the CMO to face security at an opposite window, and standing side-by-side with no body protection. this was poorly planned, and from the get-go seemed to be planned as a gunfight as you had crowd control lethal grenades and drum magazine tommyguns.

the CMO evaluated the situation, took an advantage he spotted, and saved six people in a matter of seconds. i recall the concept of 'rambo' as going in without a plan, and clearly the CMO had the supplies ready to constitute having a plan and acting on it.

[Superiorform]

It was a fun hostage situation definitely, but I disagree with your complaint. If you have the ability to quickly and easily end a hostage situation, you would take it, right? Now, imagine you are taking someone hostage in real life, an you was letting a doctor treat a hostage. You would have your gun pointed at the doctor, and you would order him to stay the fuck away from you. You didn't. You let him get close without shooting him, and you payed the price.

Edit: Oh, Veradox, exactly. The CMO had a plan to safely save the day. Even if he was a janitor, that's fine, he knew he could do it 100%, no hostages harmed.

[SomeoneOutTher3]

It was a fun hostage situation definitely, but I disagree with your complaint. If you have the ability to quickly and easily end a hostage situation, you would take it, right? Now, imagine you are taking someone hostage in real life, an you was letting a doctor treat a hostage. You would have your gun pointed at the doctor, and you would order him to stay the fuck away from you. You didn't. You let him get close without shooting him, and you payed the price.

Edit: Oh, Veradox, exactly. The CMO had a plan to safely save the day. Even if he was a janitor, that's fine, he knew he could do it 100%, no hostages harmed.

 

IRL, I would be more worried about the other present security personnel shooting me in the back if I turned away. I was also in a position where I would have had coverage of the hostages should one of them attempt to escape and robust me, while having clear sight of sec. Any other place for me to be, in my opinion, was unfitting. If I pointed my gun away from security, then sec would have had a clear shot at me with little consequences.

And Vera, body protection wouldn't have helped, the CMO would have targetted my limbs or head. I also didn't have access to a vest at the time.

I think the CMO's actions ruined whatever RP there would have been regarding the situation.

Now,let's assume I did point my gun at him, it still would have taken him a second to run up to me and hypospray.

[K0NFL1QT]

To clarify my position in this as the accused, the AI called medical to the bar and on arrival I witnessed the traitor detective unload tommygun rounds into the other detective. I also noticed that Gerald Grant was with him, and both I and my character know that Gerald is skilled at chemistry, and that he was previously preparing grenades. SO ICly I have a very good suspicion Gerald is packing explosives or more likely chem grenades in a crowded hostage situation. So, upon seeing a hostage shot, I returned to medbay to prepare chloral injectors in the event that I'd get a chance to diffuse the situation. 5units in an injector is not enough to cause harm, but it causes a near instant knockout.

Now, as I return, it's been negotiated that someone be allowed to go in and treat the injured. I was offered the chance and accepted. Conner Scott was making demands such as 'enter naked with only a medkit', which he failed to enforce when my CMO actually entered. I wasn't searched. I went ahead and started attending to the two injured crew, stopping their bleeding and dosing a little bicaridine. After about a minute of pretending to examine the other hostages, I noticed both Gerald and Conner were looking away from me. Neither of them had armor that would prevent an auto-injector. I drew two of the prepared injectors and approached them from behind, where they would not have seen me coming without spessman 360 awareness, then administered the sedatives.

My character was operating among hostages unsupervised and took an opportunity to press total advantage. There was no gun-play involved and no close combat of a sort that a doctor should not be engaging in. The sedative was precisely applied via injectors, rather than a gas grenade, to affect only the hostage takers. The dose was small enough as to cause no harm whatsoever to the injected and give them minimal time to violently respond. I don't imagine there is actually any issue with a doctor being comfortable with the use of sedatives, or applying them when called for. So, this leaves the only valid concern to be that I didn't purposely allow a dangerous situation to drag on and risk further harm to crew, which I find a weak premise for a formal complaint.

There is, after all, an entire department dedicated to stopping antag shenanigans. You were playing an antag force, and that breeds conflict among characters, but your plan was hasty and ill thought out, and you weren't thorough enough in its execution. Grant would have been entirely justified in suspecting the CMO of plotting foul play, considering CMO's are often also knowledgeable in chemistry. I asked him about beakers over comms, and he would have heard the bubbling of chemistry mixing from the bar before I returned to the scene. I was fully prepared to be shot going into that situation, or taken as a hostage myself. You allowed a clever character to cleanly terminate your half baked scheme through your own ineptitude.

You're not entitled to full player participation with whatever scheme or plot you try employ as an antag. Nobody has to let you get away with your evil deeds, and in fact, I prefer when station characters display a little competence now and then. You win some, you lose some. Get better.

[Coalf]

Yes thank you for typing out this massive response in order to say "git gud" on a HRP server where you sneaked behind two antags who were trying to spark an interesting hostage situation which you promptly ruined by using, not injections no, auto-injectors, which don't even produce a warning message when used.

Sec didn't get to roleplay shit, hostages didn't get to roleplay shit, antags didn't get to roleplay shit, all we got was *click* *click* and the entire situation was resolved, not a single /me.

That is on par with an traitor coming to medbay, and using a parapen+c4 to down you and massdriver the brain without a single word because

"He prefers when assassins display a little competence now and then"

Antags are here to create interesting situations and make crew have fun, shutting them down like this is /vg/ or even hippie tier bullshit.

I fully agree with Someone for once in the fact that you ruined an interesting situation just so you could feel robust.

[Wesmas]

Okay, time for me to weigh in on this. I was Conner Scott. I will admit some of my feelings come from how dull the ending was. Security very rarely gets to do the whole rushing hostages situation. You removed a chance for that RP, which is why someone and myself are unhappy. Ultimatly, I dont know if you did anything wrong, but it did make a lot of people unhappy. I kown at least 3 security people and 2 hostages were disapointed with how it ended. While I can see the IC justification, I dont think this makes up for the lack of RP.

As was also stated yesterday, it is this kinda of action that leads to antags just killing people, rather than people comming up with interesting situations.

[Ornias]

I wasn't directly involved in this, but can I just point out that:

i recall the concept of 'rambo' as going in without a plan, and clearly the CMO had the supplies ready to constitute having a plan and acting on it.

This implies that, if successful, it doesn't matter what you do. Someone shouldn't be granted amnesty because they're good at the game, nor punished because they're bad at it. That's not why rules are there.

If I wanted, I could just build a Gygax at round start as a mechatronic engineer and just charge any antag who comes within 20 feet of the station, but I don't, because that shuts people down and will get me banned.

[K0NFL1QT]

For as many people you cite as being disappointed, there were several who were supportive of my actions in LOOC, so we can stop the ad populum arguments. I'm sure Security were disappointed because you did nothing antagonistic until long after the first shuttle call and I got to diffuse their one chance to rush in and go shooty shooty. Your plan was bad and poorly executed. But that's okay, neither Connor Scott or Gerald Grant are hardened hostage taking assholes. You didn't search the CMO, you didn't watch him closely as he went among the hostages. It's okay to admit you messed up.

As for Rambo, that wasn't the plan. As a doctor, I don't plan on going out and stopping antags when there's full Security present. But I had a chance and took it. I was there chiefly to attend the wounded, that was my key concern. Originally I was just there to stand ready and prep to clean up the bloody mess. I wasn't trying to get into the bolted hostage area, I was invited by an officer and then permitted by the hostage takers. If they had searched me or been vigilant and watched me, or kept a gun on me as I worked, I wouldn't have been able to make a move against them.

[DatBerry]

 

i believe this is the rule in question? it doesn't particularly mean to never beat up antags ever as non-sec, the CMO didn't go in rambo, but it did kill off the RP that was going on.

the CMO had a chance to save lives and diffuse a situation and took it, this mostly seems like the fault of a incomplete or poorly executed plan, though the only thing that is questionable is, does the CMO's character actually care enough about the hostages that he would take the risk? he could've been noticed while injecting the first hostage taker and the other would've triggered the gas bombs killing all the hostages inside, i doubt you switched to walk speed when you walked up behind them.

 

. As a doctor, I don't plan on going out and stopping antags when there's full Security present. But I had a chance and took it.

So, upon seeing a hostage shot, I returned to medbay to prepare chloral injectors in the event that I'd get a chance to diffuse the situation.

????????? that sounds like a plan to me.

personally i'm not too fond of going way too easy on antags that its basically a hugbox, nor validhunting them to hell, mechanics can be used to RP too, you can't expect to roleplay a highly trained spy agent with just text and no mechanics involved, nor can you use only mechanics.

ill discuss this with the other mods.

[Mofo1995]

Well, I was here as one of the hostages, and I have to say the entire thing was a wild rollercoaster from when the gunmen entered to when they got taken down. I loved every second of it, it was thrilling and daring, and I thought that the CMO coming in and executing his rescue plan was a wild twist that me scream "OOOOOOOHHHHH!!!" (OOCly, to my roommate's displeasure) Honestly, the round was long and boring, and this wild ride at the very tail end of the round to precede crew transfer made the entire round worth it.

tl;dr I don't think it killed roleplay, I think it was a fascinating, daring, and witty twist in the collaborative story being told. I was on the edge of my seat excited and enamored with the situation all the way from being taken hostage to being rescued, it was great.

About the only thing about all of this that I didn't like was when Jack Mitchell emoted trying to silently remove his cuffs while both your backs were turned taking an officer that entered hostage, you immediately emoted "notices" and whipped around and shut him down. I think it shut down what could've been an interesting escape attempt which probably would've ended with him getting gunned down. It was a perfect opportunity to spice up the scenario, and to at least give the hostages the slightest chance.

[DatBerry]

i.. i thought i replied, looks like my internet failed me yet again.

anyway, we discussed this incident in the secret mod clique chat, we came to the conclusion that this was valid.

the CMO did not rambo, nor did he plan to be the hero the station needed from the start, but knowing who the kidnappers are and how many patients he would have to clone, he made a simple but effective plan if he ever gets the chance.

you knew the risk of letting the CMO into the bar, you even had the demands of him being naked, but you did not follow through with that, you even stood next to each other, making taking both of you down easier.

while we do not encourage heroes, we also do not encourage the mindset that hostages = safe. hostage taking is one of the hardest things you can pull off, and needs more planning than just getting talked to by another traitor and setting up grenades, you need fail-safes, escape routes and what not.