Carver

Yet both can be met by maintaining a grounded atmosphere even whilst being attacked, no?

This can spawn and be played during extended. Lore should also be prioritized wholesale, it’s the primary selling point of Aurora (as shown by canon events being the highest player counts we get). As for a step in the right direction for overmap, I’m waiting on Odyssey for that. Then we can have grounded and potentially dangerous third parties with varying levels of canonicity that can’t get too wacky without an admin or storyteller’s input. Everything about this base currently screams ‘mission briefing material’ to me rather than something that should be on it’s own without a round focus.

Addressing #7 specifically, the scope of the thread was not to remove but limit it's availability to where it'd be reasonable - that is why the thread is a policy suggestion, as such a policy would affect future away site/third-party additions going forward. Supernaturals only within Supernatural modes, and conversion antagonists only within their precisely matching mode. The first to maintain server atmosphere and the second to maintain the round flow of the present mode, to prevent any lower population rounds and lower intensity modes from being overwhelmed by what could be effectively equated to an ERT-tier threat (without the oversight and necessary judgement of requiring administrators to spawn it). To the other points, (1) I'm not in staff and I cannot read staff discussions, it would not have affected my making this thread. (2) The policy suggestion was a policy suggestion, to which only head staff/maintainers are capable of enacting - this thread's existence is instead multi-factor as you chose to directly attack my character by claiming said policy suggestion is a 'kneejerk' or 'salt' suggestion. (3) I do not closely examine most older github PRs, and I generally look to the forums for project discussion over the discord (as discord is rather poor for any serious discussion due to it's design). (4) My policy suggestion was made after reading the experiences of players who had several rounds, often lower pop and extended where Cult could not exist naturally to begin with, up-ended and turned into a murderfest by an extremely disruptive third party. (5) For balance, I'll clarify my position - I do not mind antagonist third parties, even them being dangerous, but I mind the nature of their danger (in this case, supernatural) and whether they are capable of essentially up-ending the flow of a round and undermining roundstart antagonists (as conversion third parties, particularly with some of the strongest powers in the game, are trivially capable of). If these were merely insane madmen making sacrifices without mechanically supported blood magic (cult powers), I would see zero issue. (6) How commonly that it was generated was not really a contributing factor to my making the policy suggestion, and I actually valued that error for allowing me to see more feedback and the effects this away site had on rounds. Thank you for responding.

I don’t have any major opinion, but I’d just like to clarify as a regular lowpop player that when a vote comes up if I vote to transfer it’s because I feel compelled to play every round to the end if possible. It simply feels like proper etiquette not to leave a round early once you’ve committed to it, unless I truly have something else I absolutely need to do or if the direction of a round is horrible (Greimorians without medical and with only a Secoff being a more common example). Don’t point the fingers at lobby sitters as the ones fueling the vote to transfer, some of us in the round just don’t feel right leaving early if we can avoid it.

BYOND Key: GMR25 Staff BYOND Key: dreamixpl Game ID: N/A Reason for complaint: Adding a deeply unbalanced away site (cult base) that entirely circumvents the basic requirements of the antagonist mode that it mimicks (players toggling the role, crew population and even the basic admin intervention required to add disruptive antagonist roles to an existing round), highly interrupts the flow of any round in which it activates if it's not likely to outright hijack said rounds, all whilst further damaging the general atmosphere of the server due to it's own atmosphere and mechanical nature (powered blood magic cultists, rather than just 'flavour cultists' which could be believable for the setting in 'non-magical rounds'). Additionally, and what pushed me to write this, directly attacking me by claiming that my suggestion to bar explicitly supernatural third-parties from appearing outside of supernatural modes (and conversion third-parties from appearing outside of modes matching their role) is a 'salt' or 'kneejerk' suggestion whilst attempting to bar further feedback by proceeding to immediately (vote to) dismiss the suggestion. I will plainly state that my arguments would have been rather similar before it was added if I had in any way been made aware of the PR, but unfortunately I was first made aware of it by other players who had partaken in several extended rounds that were entirely hijacked by this addition - which further necessitated that I make that suggestion. Evidence/logs/etc: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/18578 https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/20258-prevent-supernatural-and-conversion-based-antag-third-parties-from-spawning-outside-of-appropriate-modes/#comment-174440 Screenshot in case the above is deleted, for posterity. Additional remarks: It says 'don't apologize' but I feel that I should make it plainly clear regardless, I have no personal issue with dreamix and it would be unfortunate if that sentiment is not mutual. At the core of it all that I care about is the integrity of the server's serious, grounded atmosphere and existing gameplay flow.

Perhaps it’s never rolled with reason. If a mode isn’t liked, why should it be forced upon the crew (and why should it even be possible in extended)? Furthermore why should it bypass the minimum crew population requirements of the very mode itself? I’d consider this ‘the missing feedback thread’ rather than a ‘salt suggestion’, but I appreciate the insult.

Yeah if they weren’t actual, mechanical cultists I’d never have made this thread. I don’t mind seeing a group of crazies, armed with blades and rifles and whatever (who could, in Cult, potentially be useful converts). I do mind them being blood wizards right off the bat. Take away their magic and my complaint is solved as they’re neither supernatural nor conversion antags anymore. This thread isn’t just about them though so much as futureproofing against other supernaturals and conversion roles being easily introduced into rounds/modes they don’t belong in, without any admin intervention.

Per the title. Don't let conversion third parties spawn outside of modes featuring their very same antag role in the crew (Cult for Cultists, and for futureproofing Borer for Borers and Rev for Revs), don't let supernatural third parties spawn outside of supernatural modes (Cult, Vamp). We have recently had a third party base added (trivially activated by miners or other third parties) that allows for ghost role Cultists, amongst the most powerful and focus-shifting antag types. Once activated, they will have zero issue with overwhelming whoever 'accidentally' visited them and converting them - then going to the Horizon and quickly overwhelming the crew if everything isn't immediately shifted to answer this problem. There are two main issues that make this a problem compared to other third parties: Firstly, this is an entirely supernatural antagonist type that employs magic and will more or less dumpster any and all grounding that the round might have otherwise held. Secondly, as a conversion mode it is more than capable of quickly getting out of hand to where any other antagonist will be immediately sidelined as the crew HAS to deal with the cult. Had a compelling story going as a traitor or something else? Too bad, the blood wizards are here to brainwash half the crew and gib the other half. I'd rather see these sorts of absurd third parties not exist at all. Doubly so for conversion-capable roles. But in the context of a cult base spawning during cult (or a vampire coven during vamp or cult, a borer-riddled station during borer, etc.), it would be tolerable.

Aurora is more than just a station, as it were. I don't think we'd lose anything cutting the 'station' part from the server title if that helps mitigate confusion, but overall I have never seen anyone refer to the setting or server as anything but Aurora, and never 'Aurora Station'. At this point the word 'station' is probably just kept for the sake of the forums. We called it the Aurora back then, not the Exodus. I still agree with your point tho.

Of course it creates a hook, it ties it to the server name in a recognizable fashion. When I talk about Aurora lore, I simply call it Aurora lore. I don't call it Spur lore or Phoron lore. The most uniquely Aurora title is Aurora.

Aurora. Why make it complex?

My one, core issue with them in Science and probably one of the biggest reasons this thread isn’t suggesting them back there, is the corporation choice. NT/Zavod/ZH just doesn’t fit as nicely as Heph/Zavod (and potentially NT in the future given the sprites for that exist, lol). Heph is core to Machinists, while Zavod fits decidedly better than Orion (yet by itself not nearly as well as Heph). If you could be a Heph machinist in Science I’d have little issue with them going back there, as both Eng and Sci rather equally need a pop boost (Tho Eng could also benefit from variety in roles).

An addition to the current auto-generators wouldn't be bad, especially as they're presently entirely optional. But like the current auto-gens, I'd want any kind of 'easy use template' to be entirely optional.

I'm going to be rather blunt, if it's changed to be insistently written in one manner I will simply leave my exploitables blank, and I say this as someone who does try to write in potential hooks into exploitables. Are those hooks presently usable by all, not really, but not every character can be readily manipulated by just about anyone.

I would deeply prefer no expectations, the status quo. If people misuse it, then they are the type who will find themselves banned for other reasons as it were. It doesn't need to be restrictive beyond what existing rules we have.

I would be deeply annoyed with a wipe and as it were I quite like the open variety allowed. Even if people do not always put something useful, I appreciate that they put something at all to begin with.

For perhaps the sixth time; Scientists produce bespoke equipment like protoguns, circuitry and similar. As do Machinists with hardsuits and exosuits. Machinists do fix, improve and maintain ship systems: As synthetics (especially the AI) are ship systems and equipment, and exosuits as well. Every role they currently have in Ops came when they were in another department. Ops hasn’t introduced anything new to them, nor are they near ops, nor do they ever need to speak with the OM outside of bounties (which everyone gets faxed anyways). When the AI is having issues they’ll speak with the RD or CE.

I’d be fine with them in science, but as I’ve explained somewhere in the realm of four times now if you care enough to scroll up, no they don’t really fit operations at all compared to engineering. Exosuits are not unique to Operations, and production and delivery of those devices was added an era when the role was in Engineering funnily enough. Oh and I believe the clamp can pick up canisters. I haven’t tested if it can pick up pumps and scrubbers, depending on their age the answer is ‘maybe’ but clamps generally haven’t been touched in a very very long time.

For the first issue - public smoking lounge, perhaps? No idea for the second but spare storage rooms are never a bad thing for both crew and antags.

Mild feedback, I like the rest of it but: Putting telesci somewhere visible makes it thoroughly worthless for research antagonists. Privacy allows for it to be used for gimmicks/theft, doubly if it's even the littlest bit further from central ring hearing range.

With such a change, it would be simple; the upgrading and repair of various machines that fall outside the Engineer's standard fare of the power network, the production of replacement circuit boards, maintaining the hardware portion of the AI. Engineering has two fields. If it should be within the realm of a singular department, then Machinist should go to Research or become an Eng-Sci role if we dare touch upon cross-department roles again. The primary reasons I suggest Engineering over Research involve the Corporations (Heph/Zavod are a better fit than any other department) in tandem with their role dealing with heavy machinery and maintenance. To address this, Operations remains one of the worst departments thematically for Machinist - contested only by Security and Service, of which the only thing it bears over them is the mild convenience of requesting materials in a brown text colour instead of a green one. If we go by what the Machinists produce, they would fit Science (limbs, hardsuits) or Engineering (machine upgrades, synthetics, exosuits) significantly better. Further, the CE would not need to delicately oversee this matter, just as the RD or XO doesn't need to micromanage over half of their respective subordinates (and just as the OM doesn't actually need to even speak to the Machinist once outside of bounties, which are mentioned to every department regardless). What does the CE gain? Further oversight over, precisely as you said, maintenance of the ship's infrastructure in the form of synthetics and exosuits. I can see a mild issue with a CE going 'I specialized in being a Machinist', but that issue would be relatively trivially resolved by making it necessary for CEs to have knowledge of at least one engine (just as the HoS has to be physically capable of making arrests/responding in an emergency, even if they were previously an Investigator or Warden; the CMO has to be capable of medical treatment even if they were previously a Psychiatrist; the XO has to be capable of bridge duties even if they previously worked in Service). What does it marvelously prevent, on the other hand? OMs claiming to have any influence over the AI despite it being wildly out of the boundaries of their department's oversight.

Notably, the circuit printer and protolathe are vestiges of the Machinist being a part of the science department. Machinist going to Engineering would logically put Engineering as 'the department you go to for your machines to be upgraded'. Operations having exosuits is by virtue of the RNG of the warehouse, does Operations having surgical equipment and weaponry in the warehouse also mean that they should have medical and security roles within the department - clearly not, it is merely more warehouse equipment to be delivered somewhere else. Nearly every department on the ship (barring service/civ for obvious reasons) employs hardsuits and can make use of them; Engineering most prominently, followed by Medical (sorry sec the FR hardsuits are more immediately useful), followed by Security and very distantly followed by Science and Mining (the latter of whom will usually be done working by the time they can get a hardsuit). Science has taken a backseat because nobody asks for things to begin with. Yet despite this, their bespoke weapons crafting is fairly reminiscent of the Machinist's bespoke exosuit creation that had it's origins in the Machinist's prior history within other departments. The history of Robotics in SS13 is roughly as follows: It began in medical, it solely built borgs and borged people. It was then in Engineering, and it became capable of building exosuits. It was then in Science (Med-Sci initially) where it began to produce more niche articles such as replacement organs and would help the RD and CE with the AI. Not longer after it was effectively fully moved to Science, it began to produce hardsuits. I'm going to be quite forthright, if someone asks me to perform a duty outside of my distinct role that is explicitly designed for another role (Engines for Engineering, Thrusters for Atmos) I will not do it. Common practice does not always mean good practice, it was once common practice to fully set up department voidsuits and bring them to said departments. It was once common practice for Detectives to perform arrests. It was once common practice for CMOs to do-it-all within Medical. I can go on with further examples if necessary. What would I expect Machinists in Engineering to do that rather suits the department? More than likely; the construction and upgrading of machines/consoles, supplying other Engineers with circuit boards when they need them, maintenance of synthetics and the AI, repairing the odd damaged hardsuit and exosuit. Effectively the things they currently or potentially could do that fall under the realm of power tools, ship equipment and specialist maintenance. Engineering is the department of maintaining ship equipment, and that's the ultimate role of the Machinist. It's production capabilities are holdovers from Science, never from Operations. As a Machinist, I have zero reason to communicate with Operations in any capacity further than what Scientists and Engineers already do: Asking for mats, fulfilling the odd bounty and getting an initial delivery from the warehouse.

Wonderful, then they’d be able to readily assist the CE in similar matters as they used to - instead of the weird current state where an OM can potentially justify being able to help with the AI.

Which they can’t do on code green. If it’s a higher alert, then keeping an eye on disabled crew during an emergency is a more than wise move given they’re highly vulnerable to begin with.

Who in medical, the non-existent Nurses?