Kaed

I'm not even talking about you jb

The heads of staff are intended to be a command role that oversees their department and works with the other heads to facilitate the functioning of the station. They have authority over their department, and the captain has authority over them. But for a long time I've been also seeing people who slot themselves into head positions just so they can act like a normal member of their department except with extra toys and authority. This takes the role away from people who actually wish to participate in being a command character, and want to have a direct hand in their whole department rather than just being a more snowflakey regular employee. Examples of this include: -Heads of Security who roam around on patrols, acting like an officer. -CMOs who spend the whole round in chemistry or virology, playing around with machinery and chemicals. -HoPs who decide to be a bartender/cook/miner. -RDs who just sit in the R&D or xenobiology department all round, similarly playing with the things there. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean not performing vital functions for the round due to understaffing, like making medicines for medical when there is no one else to do it. I'm talking about heads that do this the whole round, rather than actually acting like a leader, checking on other parts of their department, etc. Didn't we have a discussion once about job hopping? Is it okay to swap your normal staff characters to a head position and have them do exactly the same things they normally do? Why not leave the slot for people who actually want to be a head?

Dude, it's a warning for you to improve your behavior, not a ban. Why don't you just take it under consideration for your future actions? You are being told what you did wasn't acceptable so just.. work on it. Try to play a character that wouldn't disregard the rest of the command structure and station to Go It Alone. The whole disregarding the entire rest of the station for a private agenda is an antagonist thing. Doing things that create conflict To Make The Round More Interesting is an antagonist thing, barring very minor things. This was not a minor thing.

Hi there! Detective in question here, to straighten out some of the facts you've misrepresented here. I did in fact strangle that wizard - the reasons for which are irrelevant to this thread -but I certainly was not strangling them when I arrived on with the head of security to deliver the to Gonzales, nor did I ever once mention their eyes being removed. Literally the sum of my actions towards them in medical were to stand around glaring at him while they whined, making sure they didn't attack you or something with their laser eyes. As mind boggling as it is for me that someone can try to play a to femboy peace wizard with laser eyes named MELOIDO, THE FLAMBOYANT, who removes peoples appendixes and expects people to sympathize with them irregardless of the harm they cause, what's more interesting to me is that you skated over several other incidents that came up in your medbay prior to this incident I ahelped you over. Two people, including the head of security, had their hands burned off in the process of doing their job with this person, and one officer was so horribly burned that he got husked for the rest of the round. These are fairly standard things that happen when handling wizard gear, but the fact that wizard gear destroys parts of your body for touching them does not make it the fault of the person picking it up by any logical standard IC. You can't bring antimatter armor that disintegrates people's hands on contact (even if you're just dragging it!) or books that set you on fire and give you third degree burns all over your body, onto a ship you invaded and claim that it was the security team's fault for removing it in the normal process of performing their duties. That is purely using OOC information to justify IC events. The wizard claimed in LOOC that they warned security not to touch their stuff, but they also ICly spent about 5 minutes doing nothing but repeatedly screaming "OFF!!" while they were handcuffed (It literally became spamming until we taped their mouth shut), so the wizard will have to forgive us for not treating them like a sane individual who warrants listening to. Now, perhaps your medbay doesn't communicate with each other enough that you are aware that this person was a menace in between being sad and giving you doe eyes in medical, but the fact remains that you chose, as a head of staff with limited information at your disposal, not to seek further information on this matter, but rather to decide the entire command staff was corrupt and big meanieheads to this poor little boy (who I remind you, was acknowledged to have laser eyes, which was why they were ordered to be removed, not because 'it was convenient'). As a head of staff, you should be communicating with your fellow heads, not deciding that they are all wrong and untrustworthy on the word of a sociopathic intruder. You should have reported the accusations the wizard made against me and allowed the security team to investigate. As a head of staff, you are held to higher standards and can't just decide to side with an antagonist you just met minutes ago on a whim, because your actions have far greater impact on the round than a regular crew member. Instead, at this point you allowed a murder to happen in front of you, actively assisting it. Even if you claim that ICly you thought the detective was dead before you sawed them in half because they were blocking the door, you still handed over their ID to the wizard and proceeded to lie to the entire command staff about releasing the de-eyed wizard to security custody of the detective. Does the apparent prisoner abuse that horrified you so now warrant murder which you are obligated to conceal? How inconsistent does your logic have to be to follow this train of thought? No, you did this because you knew what you were doing was wrong and you were trying to cover your own ass. You are not expected to be a perfect head of staff, but you are expected to be responsible. And then you cryoed, before security could actually address what you had done upon finding that the wizard was running around, back in his armor again. That's the real clincher here for me, that you chose to do all this and lie to to command staff and then run away to hide OOC. You certainly showed up the next round at start, so I don't think you had to go or anything. You chose to avoid the consequences of your own IC actions, and now you want the OOC consequences removed too? The difference between this and antagonists who ghost instantly upon being captured by security is fairly trivial.

So most of the wizard items have horrible effects of a non-wizard tries to use them. The key point here is Trying To Use Them. You can pick them up, look at them, put them away somewhere, so on. As long as you don't try to activate them, it's fine. Except the gem-studded voidsuit. Not only can you not pick it up, and you get a 'your hand passes through the suit!' message, but it also instantly burns off your hand for trying to touch it. It will even do this if you try and drag it without picking it up. It is basically not possible to safely move this object in any way without burning your hand off. So, please change this effect to only harm you if you try to put the suit ON, or something sensible that is in line with the rest of the wizard's gear.

Eeeh. This just feels like you're managing to both water down dominate and managing to make it even more potentially whine inducing than it was before. Dominate is actually an ability I really enjoy using, and being used on me, and I didn't super care for it being gated behind a higher tier, but I can live with it. It's fun to have your character forced to do something unusual and weird, barring something tedious and unoriginal like (murder everyone do it huehuehue). As far as I'm concerned the ability isn't unbalanced so much as people often resort to trite nonsense like inducing murder sprees. Also, this thing about making them self-harm is pretty much out, the admins are super against people being dominated into self-harming themselves for any reason, and specifically built in no-suicide exemptions from Dominate. And to be frank, the Presence power is already supposed to roughly work like you've written out suggestion, it's just kind of not well implemented? People rarely react to it in a meaningful way, so I guess reworking it to have a bit more impact than spamming people with Vampy McBludsuk looks like a friendly guy... would be interesting.

I wonder if it would be possible to make being caught in the vicinity of an explosion/flashbang also play that sort of inner ear 'ringing sound' they usually do in movies and stuff to indicate someone has been deafened by an a sound alongside the blind...

You're right, I only started working with DM this year, and had not touched it before then. Most of what I gather from code is trying to determined their purpose based on the actual text of the code, having people explain what their code does, and asking Lohikar for clarification (who also helped me set github up, I certainly didn't figure it out myself and still go to him for help). What you are doing here is presenting information to me under the assumption that I know as much about what you did as I do, and then calling me an idiot for not clearly understanding what is so self evident to you. Most of the current code I've written just involves changing text in game to something else, because I don't know enough about it to implement deeper content yet. You specifically underlined the ANTAG_IMPLANT_IMMUNE in the images you gave, which to me made it seem like you were indicating that it was, in fact, the reason why it would not affect antagonist powers. So I looked into it, and pointed out that the tag has very little relation to any specific antagonist type or their powers. So, rather than being a condescending jackass about someone being new to DM, can you explain why we need a drug to 'clear antag status' if it has no actual impact in any way on the antagonist other than implying that they need to roleplay differently now? What does this add to the game? What is stopping someone from just saying 'yes' to the prompt and they carrying on as usual so it stops popping up? It doesn't sound like you are putting in any actual consequences to 'submitting to Nanotrasen's authority'. Usually, selecting an option from a prompt causes something to happen that actually affects your round, like you are now holding an item, or you are now a cultist. What is this adding, Burger? How does this actually affect the antagonists round, in a concrete fashion? You'll have to forgive me if I'm missing something that seems very obvious to you, because it sounds like what you're trying to tell me is this is an entirely cosmetic effect. At least with loyalty implants there is a physical object that can be tracked, and you can't just say 'oh I never said yes to the prompt' even if that is a lie.

Aw yeah, finally. Well, you already know this, I"m sure, but this has my approval. Also, does this mean the blind effect of bombs will last 7 seconds or so too? Did you change the flash animation or make new one?

Probably a bay merge thing.

None of anything that you just said follows the structure of a logical argument. You've agreed with most of my point and then declared that I'm also wrong and what is given to other people for self defense is insufficient for detectives because 'you don't think they're good enough'. I don't know what all this snide stuff is at the end of your post is about regarding me making myself look bad by misrepresenting facts, but here's a non-misrepresentable fact for you to consider: You are the only person in this entire 70+ post thread that thinks this way, or at least in a fashion that stands out this much due to being stubborn and unrelenting in trying to argue it, no matter how many different people disagree with you. Schev said it adds consequence early on, and a few people agreed with it, but I haven't seen much else about that since then, and a lot more about 'adds consequences doesn't actually mean much in gameplay'. I have not seen such case of 'I'll die on a hill for my Internet opinion' for a long time, and it's getting old. It's clear no matter how many reasoned arguments people give you, how many times they ask you to analyze the situation and consider why you need this, the only answer you will ever give is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. From some of your other comments, I gather that a large part of the reason that you don't want detectives downgraded is because you actually feel that the weapons given to security at round start are not sufficiently deadly. There is a point in this thread where you advocate for giving security lethals at round start. This thread is not about reworking the lethality of security to make them more dangerous. This is about refactoring the detective to match everyone else in the round. It doesn't matter in the least how insufficient you feel the basic security tools and heads self defense weapons are. It's what everyone gets, except right now for literally no reason, the detective. That's what we're fixing. If you want to make a suggestion thread about pumping up security's game to have more oomph, make it, and see how well that goes. What I am going to do is take a stab at coding this myself later today. The general consensus I'm getting is that giving detectives a laser pistol is fine. Does anyone have a differing opinion of what should be given to detectives, for which they can give an actual argument?

It's not really that contentious, it's mostly the same person digging their heels in and being really stubborn about what they want while everyone else goes ??? Your primary argument is based around rubbers not being universally useful is kind of moot, because your equipment is not based on 'what you would prefer', it's based on 'what your job duties entail'. I'm sure most people who are eager to win would prefer to have a lethal weapon at round start, but that's not how things work here, friendo. Everything you've been saying here is indirectly pushing a specific notion on everyone, and this is basically what it is: Detectives are special, they need to be extra protected because they are in more danger than anyone else in their department, and get special snowflake equipment because of it. No, they don't. I'd rate regular officers and CSI as the highest priority targets, because officers are the ones that actually take you down, and CSI have forensics access. What do detectives do, exactly..? They question people? I know you don't do forensics, and you sure don't perform arrests, Your role is entirely support and roleplay based, like the psychiatrist used to be before trauma nonsense. I can't imagine any reason why you would be an especially vital target, except... I don't know... maybe because you start with a lethal weapon that they want to steal and/or make sure you can't shoot them with it? You complain that flashes are unreliable because sunglasses block them. Yep, that's true. Welcome to the game, we have checks and balances. You don't get a lethal weapon because WHAT IF THEY HAVE SUNGLASSES???? The chances are they do not, 90% of the time, because they aren't common access items. "Sometimes spawns in maint' is not 'freely available'. Sometimes, if you get yourself caught in a corner, you just lost. That's it, you let yourself be trapped by an antagonist, and now you can't run away, and you have to deal with the consequences. That's the nature of the game, plan ahead, instead of demanding a safety net. You don't get to have a lethal revolver JUST IN CASE none of the normal methods of avoiding death that aren't 'murder the threat' don't work. That being said, I don't see a compelling reason why Detectives can't have a laser pistol. Just, a laser pistol, Like the heads get. Not some kind of special snowflake detective laser pistol that is better than any of the others. Again, stop trying to demand extra favors because detectives are special. They're not.

I was not aware they share the same code, however... Did you know that the ANTAG_IMPLANT_IMMUNE flag you are referencing only exists in two archaic, unused antagonists? The renegade and highlander antagonist types are the only ones who have it. Here, take a look at vampire. I found this out with about five minutes of code diving. Now, I haven't been able to test what exactly loyalty implants do to you as an antagonist, but 'clear_antagonist_roles' seems to be pretty self-explanatory. It's possible I've missed some spot of code that changes this outside of the actual antag config dms, because open source code is a mess of spaghetti, but I still question why exactly we need to add an alternative duplicate version of the loyalty implant code that is harder to use and gated behind overdose mechanics. You know... because loyalty implants are a thing already?

And yet, despite all the rarity and how hard you're making it to get this medicine and utilize it (which is weird, because you're taking it from 'why would anyone not use this' to 'why is this even ever going to be used if it's such a hassle'), there has been no explanation on how it can take away antagonist powers and abilities for characters such as changelings, wizards, and vampires, other than just 'it's a de-antag medicine'. What you're creating is a panacea chemical in regards to antagonists, painting everything with a broad brush as if every antagonist can be solved with the same solution. They currently can't, and frankly, they shouldn't. 'antagonist' status is something that is largely an OOC concept, and with a few small exceptions, you can't interact with it IC. The ones that can have a plausible reason for allowing them to be removed - a religious exorcism of Nar'sie influence on a crew member, for instance. Even loyalty implants don't actually de-antag you, unless that changed recently. They just make you loyal to NT, which means you can't rabblerouse anymore. A chemical is a cold, unfeeling substance, and it has no relationship to any concept or ideology. It doesn't think, talk, or have emotional attachments to any set of morals. Assuming that an antipsychotic chemical you made from platinum (or whatever) and truth serum can somehow impress upon every antagonist type in the game that 'what they are doing is wrong and they should stop (being an alien monster)' is lazy design from both a coding and lore perspective. There's really no way to describe such an effect other than 'it's magic, stfu'. As an aside about my PR, it's definitely still up for refining, but I want to point out that the 'flavors' of these two chemicals were 'paper' and 'freedom' before I tweaked them, both of which are random nouns related to the "NT are evil bureaucrats" meme rather than actual flavors, so I changed them to be actual flavors relating to the chemical effect. For instance, 'warm milk' is generally taste associated with relaxation, which seemed fitting for an aggression inhibitor.

The guns provided to all the heads of staff you mentioned are energy weapons, and aside from the captain's infinite ammo laser beam, all of them have a nonlethal setting. It's also worth noting they do not do a staggering amount of damage, and it's nearly impossible to kill someone with the energy pistols the HoS and HoP get, both because they don't do enough damage, and because they don't leave shrapnel in your body. which is far more deadly to an antagonist than some burn damage.

The major 'disconnect' here is that you aren't actually listening to the feedback we're giving you. I get it, you liked the idea and you've put work into it. This is one of the issues that can come up when you start work on a controversial project before actually checking if the medium you're making it for is receptive to it. So, here's the deal. I'm seeing a lot of you retreating into defensiveness, claiming we're unwilling to work with you, that we're unappeasable and just frankly not understanding how you're trying to compromise with us on this. You focus on specific parts of people's arguments that you can dissect and refute while ignoring the rest of the things they are saying, like throwing up a smokescreen. You skate over well-reasoned arguments by not even responding to them. These are all fairly standard tactics for trying to avoid directly addressing the actual problem. But we're being very clear about our message here, Burger. We do not want this content. We do not want de-antag drugs. We do not want anti-loyalty nanite soup. We've said "No.' In basically every way imaginable, ranging from long discourse about why it's a bad idea to 'I do not care for this' to just bluntly saying No in bold letters. Both here and on your PR. It doesn't matter how you revise the idea, it's the fundamental concept that is causing pushback, not the implementation. And yeah, there's been a couple people who did sort of like the idea, in one way or another. But that's not the main message I'm seeing here. So you have a choice at this point. You can either listen to us and work on other things, or you can decide that we're all wrong and continue your PR while ignoring all criticisms. Because frankly I haven't seen much in the way of you actually putting up a real arguement in defense of your idea other than 'I like it, I think it'd be cool, and I'm not removing the PR." while pretending to accept feedback, but actually only selectively listening to the parts that support your ideas.

The standard issue uniforms and armaments of the security team are not designed to cover every possible potentiality, and for the most part, humans are very human-centrist in their equipment planning (how many special xeno gloves or boots do you see in round without equipping them via loadout or ordering via cargo?). Flashes work on pretty much everyone, but that's not why they are there, it's because flashes work on humans, the primary player race in the server, and the extra stuff is just icing on the flash cake. Therefore, I want you to understand that 'well without lethals I can't stop a vaurca or IPC from trying to murder me' is not really a consistent argument with the tone of the setting. Officers do not start out with lethals or EMP pistols 'just in case of bugs or robots.' Detectives are not a special case scenario because 'muh universal self defense'. The concept of self defense equipment for crew members involves -disabling- your human opponent, not murdering them. The same brush applies to 'well some antags are immune to being rubber bulleted'. Nanotrasen does not equip you with antag./xeno-destroying items, they equip you with items to restrain or disable fellow humans crewmembers. So, if your detective is all alone, being attacked by bugs or robots, here is an alternative to feeling the game owes you a special favor for defending yourself with starting equipment: Run away and call for backup, instead of trying to be the hero the station needs. You can tell me that 'people don't care about in game consequences is lazy argument' all you like, but the reality of the situation is that rambo mentality runs deep in the player base, and the people that act like sane humans instead of trying to win an engagement in their disfavor and posthumously bitching about low rp antags or broken game mechanics is a very small percentage.

Probably for the same reason that Alchemy was added, and the trauma update included a couple drugs that made you loyal or disloyal to Nanotrasen. People think it's funny to put kooky pseudoscience into the game as extra content. I mean why put in stuff that has the potential of making hard science that works in the game setting, when you can put cheesey meme content that is hilariously soft like brie. Trololol.

All this talk about lethal bullets encouraging people to take the gun more seriously is complete bunkus. People are playing a video game where they can hunt down bad guys, and at the end of the day, they're going to take glee at being able to shoot the antag if they get the chance. It frankly doesn't matter what you put in their gun, they're going to fire it at someone any chance they get. That is the nature of guns in a video game. In real life, you can have inescapable life consequences for firing on someone and killing them, but here, the most you'll get is a slap on the wrist of your imaginary character or maybe a sec ban if you're completely awful. I'm not against taking away their gun and replacing it with something like pepper spray, or giving them rubber bullets. But for fucks sake stop letting them start with code blue ordinance on their person. The whole concept of giving detectives a revolver was to reinforce the hard boiled gumshoe meme from back before we started putting higher standards into roleplay, which detectives don't really do in the first place these days. So they don't need deadly bullets to facilitate it either.

I have literally seen people, in character, go around offering to inject (suspected) antagonists with this under the proposal than make them pro-Nanotrasen slaves. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean I haven't. Also, the fact that their existence is being used in certain threads to justify that corporate mind control is a recognized and easily accessed process outside of a proprietary Nanotrasen implant is a part of why I made this change. I think they're not okay, and they don't make any sense. Even if they are being rarely used, there's no reason why we need to have liquid loyalty implant/antag juice in the game. I'd tackle alchemy too and talk about writing it out of the code if I thought I had any chance of that, but I'll pick my battles where I can. Addendum: By the time this even makes it into the main game the month wait period will be over, so that argument is kind of moot. The month wait period also applies mostly to full rollbacks, not revisions due to issues with new code implementation.

You're really dead set on this idea about the drugs directly interacting with antagonism, huh? I still don't care for this, but we'll look at it on its own merits. So what I'm seeing here is not, in fact, that this item only works on traitors and revs as you seemed to originally indicate, but that it works on any antagonist, because it's based entirely on their antagonist state, with no refinement involved at all. This results in the nonsensical situation where you can drug antagonists whose resources are based on innate powers rather than equipment, like a vampire or changeling, to make them lose their powers. Because truly, loyalty to Nanotrasen is so powerful that it can change your very alien biology and purge the taint of the Veil from your heathen body. Nanotrasen is a divine being, right? No? What do you mean it's just the name of an entirely mundane company? Binary choice popup windows are also extremely awkward when you are not expecting them. It takes over your window and it is possible to accidentally select one of the options without having time to read them because you were typing something for roleplay. It's the nature of the client, and not really something that's fixable, but at least most of the time, you know it's coming when you are on a cult rune or someone walks up to you to give you something, or they have been talking to you about joining their secret revolution for a few minutes. I also see you plan to rework the other one from an almost on the nose syndicate drug to an entirely on the nose 'syndicate nanites' chemical. Every revision you make strains harder to push your idea of disabling loyalty implants. I can see what you're going for here, because we questioned how a chemical could do this, so you decided to make it a nanite soup instead. Except that this chemical is supposed to be here for two actual reasons: -To cure pacifism, a trauma -To act as an aggression booster and encourage betrayal of your coworkers So, by doing this, and planning to make 'Syndites' unobtainable outside of uplinks, you have removed the cure for pacifism from the game general in your quest to make this a loyalty implant disabler. Are you going to make a new drug now that cures pacifism? How far are you going to need to strain this just to get what you want? There is no need for a process that disables loyalty implants so easily. They can be removed via surgery, or by being a fresh clone because hardly anyone replaces a loyalty implant once you clone someone. These work just fine, and aren't hacky and conceptually unstable. Nor is there a need for constant popup windows to de-antag yourself in the way that normally only admins can do. Rather than keep trying to patch this idea and add further revisions and new chemicals to compensate, maybe you could just... stop? Go back to making cardox bombs and the other stuff you're working on? Those actually seemed like something I'd want in the game.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4652 I made a PR for it myself.

Like Delta says, no. Stop, cease and desist, don't make things worse than they already are. https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10966 how about this suggestion instead, though I guess you've already read it, considering you felt the need to link this PR in the thread.

Yeah... no. I don't think you should be doing that with those two either. Preventing antagonist roles and deactivating loyalty implants? You're just going to encourage people to dose up the crew during autotraitor rounds, or during rounds like cult, run up and force inject or drug the captain so you can convert him. These are terrible ideas that are going to circumvent normal gameplay. Maybe the route you should be going is making them into regular damn medications instead of reinforcing the silly nonsensical side effects that were put in for them.

And yet neither of those groups utilized supernatural means of coercion, which makes the reliable loyalty implant work just as well if not better against them than a 'mindshield' implant, for the simple reason that mindshield implants don't necessarily prevent you from choosing to betray the company of your own free will. A loyalty implant does, and is therefore more conceptually secure. The primary basis of these arguments are based on a fallacious understanding of the relationship between antagonists pretending to be NT and people with an implant, because people still maintain the assumption that they have to comply with people they think are NT, even if they are clearly not and the things they are being asked to do are senselessly immoral or incredibly illegal. They are not a mindslave implant that forces you to mindlessly comply with NT's totally legitimate announcement that employee executions are now mandatory every 10 minutes. If anything, they would reinforce your idea that NT would never order that, because you love them, and know they would never perform such a horrible action 'for a social experiment, lel'. You're expected to exercise logic and judgement, and you have many resources at hand to help you ranging from admins to the knowledge that emotional strain can overcome the implant. I understand you don't like it, but loyalty implants frankly just make more sense narrative than mindshield implants and there is no need to remove it and replace it with a weaker narrative device. Additionally, as a side note. Truth serums, along with a number of other chemicals with bizarre effects that were cited in this thread, were very recently added alongside traumas, and the whole system there is currently up for debate on whether it should be even kept or not. Using very recent, contentious changes to the game as basis for why further changes should be made is not a very sensible path to take.