Chada1

Notice the 'Except when dealing with antagonists' which is exactly what this is supposed to prevent. This also means Security and Command won't be hounding an AI player to constantly bolt everything, so yup, I'd say it's much better. More likely they'll just call it to pull a fire alarm and then watch/etc.

Remember that in place of bolting, you can pull the fire alarm in most situations, so the functionality of bolting is p. much maintained in any situation except dealing with Antagonists. ? In that sense, it's far from being a hall monitor, you can still do most of what bolting enabled you to do. Also glad you like the new changes too.

TYVM

That could be neat, do you have any specific one I can search for?

Okay so, I agree with the latter half to a degree, but the former half is just completely and utterly wrong and I'll explain why. There is just nowhere in our canon (or even in a believable canon) where NanoTrasen would entrust an 'Unfeeling' (In the sense of not even having simulated emotions -- not real ones) to safeguard the Station Crew, customer service skills and some degree of weak empathetic reasoning are p. much must haves for effective Lawed synths, since they have to interpret the laws and how to best serve and protect the Crew within their abilities. It'd be okay for a 'borgo to lack this to a large degree, but for an AI, the thing in charge of guiding the 'borgos and informing Crew of systems and all of this other extremely important stuff? I don't think so. Then there's also that AI and 'borgs are operating off of some of the same brains as IPCs -- Any degree of humanlikeness that an IPC can have, a 'borg or AI can also have, so long as whatever personality it has is conducive to and actively assists in their applications of what they were programmed and hardcoded to do -- their laws. The issue with the AI doing these things is v. much related to people not playing personalized AIs, and reacting in the exact ways you're advocating for, and we can diminish the AIs ability to react in these ways to reasonable levels without literally crippling their ability to roleplay with Crew (A direction we should NOT BE GOING if AIs reacting in an objectively robotic way and locking down antagonists is the core problem.)

Antagonist AI/'borgs get the abilities, but no AI operating normally should have them, and no 'borg operating normally should have them. They're actively negative for the round progression and you should just make better use of your 'borgos for keeping people out of your core/etc. I may potentially add the airlock jamming tools that each dept gets to the 'borg modules to even enable them to more sanely and less invasively lock people out of airlocks. Also. This isn't making it more boring to play, it's making it less agonizing to play with. And it enables us to buff AI in other ways that are more positive to the game, such as this extremely awesome new feature by the same dev who is doing this PR that adds AI controlled mechs. See here: This is an attempt to fix the inherent problems of the AI and general stationbounds, not make them boring.

The main thing to be wary of with this and things like this, is something we can all see v. clearly in the Cult gamemode, where the Cult requires blood (and bloodletting) to cast their abilities, and it leads bruises all across their body. It makes it p. clear and obvious to all who see a crewmember OOCly that they are a member of the cult, and that's actually v. negative to the cult gamemode. So like, however this is implemented, it needs to be done in a way that avoids that.

I think I found the solution to my roleplay problem. Instead of fully making the AI unable to see mobs, tying mob visibility more closely together with medical sensors, the degree of mob visibility would directly relate to how high you set it. Full sensors = Full mob visibility, can see their name, their clothes, mostly the same as now. Half sensors = Silhouette, can see their name (except if they have no ID and are on the sensors as Unknown, you'd see them as unknown in that case.) And their health level but that's it. No sensors = Can't even see them, can just tell the surrounding station equipment is being used. This'd make the AI still able to roleplay with crew well while still drastically reworking their information flow.

Alright so you're definitely right on most of this, I'll go by it paragraph by paragraph and explain my intention and thoughts and stuff. Paragraph 1: Thank you v. much for the praise and stuff and yup it's true we've been friends p. much from day 1 ?. Paragraph 2-3: I'm glad I managed to fix the problem, I hope it stays fixed and I'm v. glad you like the new changes, it's true that it's more of ideology 1 vs Ideology 1 opposers instead of an actual revolution, and it's true that in a vacuum with no roleplay, normally, it'd be identical to spy vs spy (One team fighting another team using the same equipment), but it's not ideally meant to be that at all, it's supposed to go like, one team creates a gimmick, and the other team just acts in opposition to that gimmick and fans the flames (The fellows make the gimmick, the contenders oppose the fellows). So far the feedback on this has been p. good but it does make that new endgame problem more defined. Paragraph 4: This issue is one that has existed in old rev too, and in multiple other modes, and is a p. long-time stay of HRP Antagging in general I think, it's the difficulty in actually having a defined gimmick, or finding a good reason to revolt, or deciding why your character is even doing this antagonistic thing. I think this could work as a solution but has a roadblock to it, the hard part is figuring out how to implement objectives in a way that doesn't lead to the same ole' thing of constant reoccurring rev rounds which this is partially intended to solve. I'll look into how the objectives work and maybe hooking the Fellows to it, and then maybe giving the Contenders something neat similar to it like what they suspect of the Fellows or something. But unless I find a good way to do it it's a problem I can't really solve. If anyone else has any ideas or you have any new ones, please post. Also thank you V much for the feedback. ?

I was onboard with this idea (The machine vision) until someone brought up a v. valid point on how it'd impact AI roleplay. Their point was: How would you address this? Because it completely turned me against the idea. This is why I'm now like, fully in support of just nerfing the AI's ability to deal with Antags above any visual changes/etc. If this could be addressed I'd be more open to it.

Oh also, this will lead to the AI actually needing to send its hands (The 'borgs) to areas in emergencies when Crew are being doofus's and trying to enter even tho it's said to be dangerous, and it'll also lead to Security/Engineering/Medical actually having to use their airlock jam tools that rarely if ever get touched, since now they can't just command the AI to bolt everything. So overall this is positive for roleplay.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8889 As of now, a PR is open to do all of this except in a slightly different way than expected, instead of having a 'reset' option, 'borgs and AI retain their ability to unbolt/unelectrify as normal and are just blocked out of bolting/electrifying. However, there's also a 5 second timer for unbolting/unelectrifying.

Only the AI and 'borgs would get access to it as it is, all it would do is give 'borgs the ability to unbolt/unelectrify airlocks without also giving them the ability to bolt/electrify them. Engineering could be given access to it in some forms, but it's not a thing that you'd just walk up and activate as an assistant or anything, if engineering did get access to it, it'd probably be through that debugger item that you use to reset bluescreened APCs. 'borgs/AI having access to this is barely at all any different than how it is now, they can just walk up and reset the entire airlock by hand, this isn't new, this just removes their ability to bolt/electrify and streamlines their ability to fix airlocks a bit. EDIT: Also in the implementation in my head, you wouldn't be able to reset anything that has the wire cut, so if the bolt wire is cut and the bolts are down/etc, you can't use the reset button to fix that, which solves the problem you just mentioned even with it being common I think (Which it wouldn't be common)

Type (e.g. Planet, Faction, System): A mythical, lost underwater region on the Skrell homeworld (Qerrbalak). Describe this proposal in a single sentence (12 word maximum): To tie together old concepts and add more depth to Skrell mythology. How will this be reflected on-station? It'll only really be reflected in the further depth and consistency with the new changes to the Skrell veneration of Dionae/etc (The reworked Dienabi religion) Does this faction/etc do anything not achieved by what already exists? Yes, this adds more mystery to the Skrells' history on Qerrbalak and makes their mythology a fair bit cooler. Why should this be given to lore developers rather than remain player created lore? It adds a whole lot more substance to the new religion and the pre-glorsh mythology of the Skrell, I think. Do you understand that if this is submitted, you are signing it away to the lore team, and that it's possible that it will change over time in ways that you may not forsee? Yup. Long Description: Perhaps one of the longest standing myths surrounding Skrell evolution is the legend of the Arqo-Wohai, a lost core region of the Skrell nestled deep below the sea of Qerrbalak, theorized to be found even deeper than the Mariana Trench on Earth, this legend often alludes to a diverse set of deep sea life capable of unusually advanced psionic power. Traditionally, and of great interest to ancient Skrell anthropology, this also tends to include deep sea floral life, the significance of which is as the earliest indication of floral life with psionic power, most other known psionic Floral life being extraordinarily rare with only rudimentary power. One of such psionic floral species known to exist on the surface of Qerrbalak is the Weuzshi Mycelium, also known as the Weuzshi Auto-net fungus, for how it telepathically communicates with other of its kind to instinctively grow together to form a moss-like net over surfaces exposed to heat. The legend usually likens Arqo-Wohai to a lost paradise of the Skrell species, with the floral life acting as beacons in the deep darkness of the sea, a likening believed to indicate a similar ability of the Flora to telepathically link to Skrell. For this reason, the floral life is often considered as the origin myth of the Oernabi legend, and the region is both revered and religiously sought by followers of Dienabi, with them referring to it as the last surviving bastion of Oernabi on Qerrbalak. Despite the cultural significance, the most compelling evidence is little more than deep sea carvings found in aquaducts near the ocean floor. (Inspired by the myths of the Lost City of Atlantis, El Dorado - the City of Gold, and Shangri-La.)

I don't mean to thread hijack or anything, but I've made a new thread that is related and since the vote turnout is 2/3 in favor of keeping the AI, these nerfs could help scale it down to a much less overbearing level. Stationbound Nerfs

I'd be entirely okay with that, actually. But I dunno if a lot of other people will be onboard. If you go to alter the current NT default, please, please also rephrase the 'to the best of your ability' to 'to the best of your units' ability' because as it stands it's basically encouraging you to powergame.

This comes on the back of the AI removal vote that just resulted in us keeping it, if we're going to fix the long-standing problems with 'borgs and the AI, we need to make changes in some of their joined mechanics. I'll go indepth on why they should or should not exist and where the good of these and the bad of these starts. The largest offender, and the longest standing complaint with 'borgs and AI. BOLTING AIRLOCKS): I've tried to find a lasting redeemable use for bolting, but the reality is there just isn't any use outside of bolting in Antags. Literally most of the good uses of this feature (locking in an aggressive monster, preventing the spread of a fire, biohazard, etc) can be solved just by raising the emergency fire shutters and warning Crew to avoid the area. The AI and/or 'borgs only ever use this for one valuable purpose which is to unbolt airlocks and/or keep them open for people to enter. If given a way to unbolt airlocks, this can be entirely removed without losing anything valuable. This one is a much weaker offender but still has problems. ELECTRICIfYING AIRLOCKS): This one has no real value at all outside of when a 'borg/AI is subverted, otherwise it's used for the same negative reasons as bolting airlocks, to harm Antags and negatively effect the current rounds' narrative. This one doesn't even need to be replaced. It can just be outright removed. On the standard lawset you can hardly even use this without breaking your laws except when it involves non-Crew, which is NOT GOOD. The final change which would save the utility in both of these options is): A simple 'RESET' Airlock button to disable the bolting and the electrifying. It simply returns every option back to its default, (unbolted, unelectrified) un-everything, assuming the mechanism is working properly. These two changes should make a massive difference in gameplay if they're addressed and they shouldn't be too difficult to do actually. There is no real value to keeping either of these features, the only valuable utility to bolting airlocks is to unbolt, not to bolt. The fire alarm can do everything bolting does without locking Antags into a room. Another possible change is to make cameras have a blinking light overlay applied to them if the AI is currently in its radius, but that'd require some kind of code to monitor where the AI and cameras are and I don't know how hard that'd be.

I'm extremely extremely happy to hear you enjoy it, and I'm hoping it continues to hold up for other players. So far it's looking v. good ? But this means I need feedback from more people more than ever to confirm everything I attempted to do (Nearly everything you just typed) is working as intended ?

The thingo is if we remove the AI, 95% likely it will never EVER be reworked, it's p. much now or never. Once the culture adjusts and shifts to be used to the AI being gone -- no dev/player is likely going to be willing to even try to fix it. That's why I agree tho we should try to whitelist and fix it and then proceed to removing instead of just removing until fix. Another idea was brought to me recently, which is to remove the AIs ability to see names on the radio or on IDs. instead, it sees just the job name (This exists in telecomms code already and can be made a more permanent thing just for the AI) and when it sees a mob, it only sees a silhouette of whatever species it is, instead of equipment or clothing. This way the AI can't be biased in any way or form since it literally cannot tell crew apart from each other except for their rank and role (Job and whether they're command) which means one roboticist is as prioritized as the other roboticist in requests. This makes an Antag using a false ID or wiping the Crew manifest actually a potent way to disable the AIs ability to gain information, and would ensure mechanically that the AI would act more like a machine. This also means interactions would go more like. Captain says, "AI, Open X Airlock." instead of Bob Planter [Captain] says, "AI, open X AIrlock." which could be a way to solve a lot of the problems with AI right off the bat. The problem? I don't even think this is worth exploring by itself without whitelisting it too, but it's the best idea I've been given so far.

4; Nerfing does work, the issue you're citing in that paragraph isn't even against nerfing, it's against peoples willingness to accept nerfs, or to code them, and it could be v. easy to fix that problem by just making the nerfs v. simple, like the bolt timer, cameras being more visible when the AI is in an APC-area, etc. Scroll up to my earlier post. 5; Following this logic to its logical end, if it were true, Aurora should remove all of our whitelists, the command whitelist, including our species whitelists. If they don't ensure the mechanics of species are used responsibly and in a positive-for-RP way then why do we have them? The answer is that they DO WORK and people love to say that they don't but they don't seem to like testing it to see if they do or not. The Command whitelist matches almost every single OOC criteria for what we want in an AI player. Let me go down a list of things command players can get their whitelist stripped for: Choosing the role and ignoring its' responsibilities to gain authority over the other related roles and overreaching in their authority. Discouraging RP and taking actions that shuts it down for the rest of the crew. Unreasonably responding to situations Abusing their jobs power and mechanics to valid-hunt/other powergaming and shut down Antags. Ignoring the OOC expectations of their role. All of this is whitelist strippable for the Command whitelist, now tell me that all of that doesn't completely fit the exact bill of what a good AI player should avoid? 6: We already have rules for Stationbounds, the AI doesn't need unique rules, every rule that applies to 'borgs also applies to AI, the problem is that an AI is given situations a 'borg is never able to encounter due to it being a disembodied entity that can be anywhere at any time, and CM uses their whitelists differently than how we do. Their bishops (The equivalent of their IPCs) are setup to require powergaming to maintain the whitelist. We would never do that in a million years, every whitelist we have exists to PREVENT powergaming so using their way of handling whitelists and rules for what we'd become is a v. poor way of looking at it. We are not CM. We don't even have the same administrative policy and ethics. 7: This is partially because we leave the role open for absolutely anyone to play, if we had it behind a responsibility-driven whitelist (The Command whitelist) we could more seriously moderate it and the slot would more often remain open for the ones people consider good. We can actually enact a gradual player culture shift if we put it behind a whitelist and tweak some of the mechanics.

The way bolting is handled is p. much going to get changed remove or don't remove, it's one of the biggest complaints people have against 'borgos and I'm likely going to fix it given time @Naelynn, the thing I'm thinking of doing is making any (Outside of actual airlocks) airlock with an intact bolt wire automatically unbolt in about 10 seconds on any code level except code red. And then if 'borgs/AI need to keep crew out of an area, like in a phoron leak/fire/blob/carp they can just pull the fire alarm instead, and won't be able to trap antags anymore.

What I expect the most is a third slot going rescue, mining, service or construction, with the other two going engineering and medical, which seems like it'd be okay, if two went engineering or medical it'd be a problem. OH and I might try to code it in so you can only have 1 borg in each module if that helps.

The third stationbound shouldn't negatively impact balance much at all I don't think, they don't have many of the issues with the AI role and are a lot more positive for roleplay and interaction too. The main thing that I see that's wrong with the AI, is that it has the second highest round impact out of any role in the entire game, and once you recognize and accept this as a problem, the solutions to this that I see are: Actually recognize it's crazy that we don't expect an AI player to be as trustworthy and positive for roleplay as the Captain player who almost has less power and round impact than them, and throw the AI whitelist into the Command whitelist. This changes nothing in the actual AI hierarchy, it still has no authority over anything but the 'borgs, but the people who can now play it are also the ones we trust to play high power roles like the Captain responsibly without being a negative influence on rounds, with similar expectations. Synth-ban people the same if they aren't following their laws, if they try to play the AI as a command staff member, then command whitelist could be considered for strip. (We should expect Command whitelistees to know the AI isn't a Command member, it being in the whitelist, isn't an excuse. The Reps are also in the whitelist with no real authority), then tweak the AIs' mechanical means of reacting to situations, make cameras have an indicator so that it's clear they're in an area. Could be an APC area check + a small little flipping pixel overlay. Maybe make airlocks automatically unbolt with a timer on code green? and the AI/'borgs can't electrocute airlocks at all. And in their place the AI/'borgs can bring down the emergency shutters that require ID access. Remove the AI, and/or replace it with a new type of 'borg that the other 'borgs are automatically linked to, @kyres1 had a similar idea, which could be called the CIU (Central Intelligence Unit) and basically just be a regular 'borg kinda but maybe gets overclock by default or something to make its gameplay a little unique. That's p. much it, whitelist the AI and do some QOL to make it less agonizing or remove it. If it's not whitelisted, we can't change the culture surrounding it, so we're always going to have the complaints people have against it, and if we don't do the QOL changes to 'borgs and the AI, Antags will always have afew issues with them, but mostly AI.

As of now, this is merged. I guess this thread can be closed/give feedback on the change here.

Oof I think I want to rescind this app actually, If I change my mind at a later time I'll reapply.