Chada1

I'll note I'd be open to the bolt delay vs removal IF WE WHITELISTED THE ROLE but it would still be a problem for 'borgs who wouldn't be whitelisted, just much more reduced. And i'll remind, whitelisting was shot down, it's not likely to happen. this is option #2.

I like this sentiment a whole lot but it can't ever be done if we don't whitelist the role, no whitelist = no this. This is p. much damage control that might prevent this from happening. It may be a solution that disincentivises hunting antags to the point that it doesn't actually happen.

You can't deal with that as a player issue because if Command/Security request you to bolt you can't refuse them except in extremely unique situations. It is literally out of the players control at that point. AIs could be refused control to the bolts for whatever various lore reason, including the extreme large presence of Crew who don't trust Synthetics, like the Skrell or Dominians, this isn't really a lore question tho, so much as a gameplay one.

If there's a direct threat to crew in the room, there is no reason you should be trying to be subtle, tho. You should be completely fine with it blaring in the face of crew in that situation. Bolting is negative to the game because it enables you to be subtle (And v. aggressive) about it instead of direct (And not v. aggressive), that's not a good thing. Hence why it's used nearly ONLY to hunt antags. And constantly requested by Security/Command, that's what makes it so terrible. And remember again -- If it's being requested by Command/Security, it doesn't matter how responsible the AI player is, if they're following their laws. They have to bolt.

Yes I voiced this as well and requested the role be put behind a whitelist -- Specifically Command, which places a lot of responsibility on the whitelistee -- But it was v. much shut down, this is option #2, and I also believe this feature doesn't add any value to the role that pulling fire alarms doesn't also, tho. I don't think 'borg/AI need this feature to serve/protect the crew, I seriously think it is ONLY used to hunt antags. There are few other reasons you can't use other things for. I think the only one brought up to me thus far is opening an airlock to let air in. That's it. And so long as this feature exists, Security/Command will request it to be used, and the AI can't refuse.

No it isn't and I explained why if it had actually been read. No security role has the ability to do the things the AI does, you plan against the entire Security Department (No role within it in particular), meanwhile you plan against the singular AI (Not even the 'borgs! You can treat the 'borgs just like Security in this sense, and no other role on the Station in the same way.). That's ridiculous. The AI literally derails your entire round, if you don't plan for it exclusively you CAN AND WILL be shut down in the majority of rounds.

I'll go by your paragraph 1 by 1, and I can see why you don't understand the methodology around doing this. Paragraph 1: It's not that anything that stifles the Antag is negative for the round, it's specifically that the AI/'borgs (The 'borgs less so) stifling the Antag in the ways they have available at the moment (Bolting particularly) are wholly negative for the round. It isn't fun for anyone, barely even the Security responding to it, to have the Antag bolted into a room by the AI/'borgs, it's basically just. 'Ok, the antag for this round is dealt with, time to roleplay as if it were extended.' This isn't a good thing and does nothing p. much aside from inhibit the Antag from driving a narrative in the round (Which is to everyones benefit, including Security, they want an interesting round, not a 'I have the Antag dealt with before I even get to fight them' round.) Paragraph 2-3: Read paragraph 1, IT IS something boring to happen. And the logic behind the Antag having to build their entire round around dealing with the AI is nuts, we don't have that expectation with any other role. Imagine if we just said 'To have a full, engaging round, where you drive a narrative for the entire servers' playerbase, you have to deal with the Warden immediately, or he'll bolt you in from the brig and alert Security instantly where you are so they can kill you.', there is no other role like that in the entire game, there is just the AI. The Traitor has to deal with Security as a whole, no specific role in Security, and yet it has to drop everything it's doing to deal with the AI or have their round completely derailed. Plus, SS13 isn't a game where Antags have fun, Antags not getting instantly shut down by a specific role is exactly why everyone else will have fun. (And this only applies to the AI, literally nothing else, the AI is the only thing in the game that can do this.) Paragraph 4-5: When the cost-benefit analysis is this extreme and bolting is being actively abused to hunt Antags rather than protect/serve crew (Hell, Security literally will just hound the AI to get them to follow and bolt Antags/suspects in everywhere, it's horrible) then yes, it is better to remove a thing and then add stuff to make the role more engaged at a later time. This is one of the cases where you should remove a thing ASAP and then replace it at a later time because it's just that negative for the game. Closure: It's just true that bolting negatively impacts rounds. The idea that the Antag should have to build its entire round around countering a single role is absurd, imagine if we applied that standard to any other role in the game? It's actively detrimental to how they can approach the Station/crew. And the AI still gets plenty of abilities to serve/protect, they just can't bolt Antags in anymore. And that's for the better, in literally every single way. Unless bolting Antags is literally what you want to do. Also! Other servers doing a thing doesn't mean it's positive for the game.

As of now, this is merged. Tips for this change: Remember to pull the fire alarms in emergencies, and if you're not in range to do so, the fire shutters can be used to blockade individual airlocks effectively but at more effort. If you need an airlock to remain open so you can spread air out as an engineering 'borgo, you can create multiple objects (I find using metal sheets to make a canister is good) capable of barricading a airlock open. If Crew require an airlock open forever for them, just disable the access requirement which makes it the same access as the public garden. Don't forget to leave feedback.

This is a v. valid concern, but I'm not sure we'll go that route and I think I can show a p. good example of why -- There are actually buffs being planned for the AI in other areas that are less detrimental to the game, the same dev who is doing this PR has also coded the ability for the AI to uplink into mechs that are within its network and remotely control them, which is p. darn cool. See here. I hope that at least relieves some of the worry, and I doubt anyone will want to add new feature like this mech change in for the AI without reducing how overbearing the AI is like this.

I think the best solution is to proceed as we are -- The core doesn't need to be changed, so much as the AI needs to be made less overbearing. This does that. The survivability of the AI isn't the issue, it's what it can do to people. And this isn't just the AI, this is a problem with my favorite role, 'borgs, too, they shouldn't have access to bolting, it's an objectively negative influence on rounds. It doesn't really matter if it's as simple as just walking in and hitting the AI twice and destroying it, if the AI is so powerful that you have to actually redirect your entire roleplay, gimmick and everything JUST TO DO THAT, there is a horrible problem. Sure you can make the statement that you should have to play around the AI, but this isn't playing around the AI, THIS IS DESTROYING/DISABLING THE AI. as a necessary step in your round as an Antagonist. Think about that. To make it easier to kill the AI just hides the problem that they can completely and utterly derail rounds if they aren't dealt with p. much imediately, and that's the problem. So, the solution? Remove their ability to derail rounds. This does that, hopefully with much fewer AI players immediately getting ganked. The debate I've had here has done nothing to weaken my belief in this, it's just making me realize it ever harsher as a stationbound player.

We could likely make a subtype of the Schlorrgo (A new animal) that isn't a schlorrgo to replace rats, and merge the features of the two together, which would be much better and make a better player mob. I think that'd be v. cool. Lowkey I'd love to join as a rat-like mob (IDK what) and experience being kicked around as a football.

I mean specifically the anti-queer part, and many of the racial parts. Those don't happen for sure. I can't speak for your experiences but I can speak for those.

I would like to point out that I've been called a lot of things (including the term 'faggot') and had the person who called me it permanentally banned in a timeframe of like, 3 minutes from the Discord (Without pinging a mod or admin, I'll note). I can say for sure that part (And I'm sure afew others) are invalid here.

I think mostly it should be targeted to the AI only, mostly because 'borgos need to protect the AI (and thus need to see potential intruders to the core) and this is only really meant to stop the AI from catching antags doing antag things since that's where the AI is the worst. ?

This is v. good and will give antags a large push in being able to avoid the AI.

Nearly any situation at all that you would bolt for (With the sole exception of Antags), you can also use the fire alarm for and then warn the crewmember. You don't need bolting to protect crew, and if crew don't heed your warnings, that isn't your fault -- That's a fault of their own character.

I mean, like, it's considered the origin myth as in, a place it could have originated in concept, in a scientific non-Dienabi sense. The Dienabi take would likely be entirely separate from how the Skrell Anthropologists approach it, you know? kinda like how historians who aren't aligned with a belief system will often parallel religious tales to old legends, and the like, IRL. It could be implemented however you/Paradox think it'd be best

I'm glad ?

If it didn't have power then it wouldn't be able to shut down antagonists, tho, or literally anything else. There are two different kinds of power in this situation, soft power which is the ability to get others to do a thing, (Which isn't always authority) and hard power which is the ability to directly do a thing. It does have power -- Just not authority. Anytime a crewmember listens to the AI, it's soft power. The tendencies of Crewmembers to ignore the AI is partially related to a lot of factors like it being capable of doing this thing and bolting everything. Having to listen =/= listening. Crew don't always listen to Command either. And if they think the AI has a good reason to do a thing, they will listen to the AI too. I can't fix the playerbase, this thread is only to fix the AI, and maybe fixing the AI will gradually change how the playerbase treats AIs too.

I don't agree with this either, tho, I think the AI will still be able to seal areas if they just inform the Crew not to enter them and give a v. good reason ?, it'll be them having to utilize soft power tho and less hard power (which is what bolting is). Especially in cases like with carp and/or minor gas leaks. If a Crewmember ignores the AI's express warning and enters an area, that is kinda their fault. The AIs ability to help Crew avoid harm should be directly related to how willing Crew are to heed its warnings, and how many resources ('Borgos and now the AI mech) it has to physically perform its will In the long term, this may even lead to Crew taking the AI (And 'borgs) more seriously in when it's trying to warn them away from harm, since the primary barrier in this situation from the danger and the crewmember, is the Crewmember actually listening to the AI and respecting that fire lock. So like, even in this case, I think it'll be more positive than negative in the long term.

Because this is what I play and so this is what I know how to fix. Those, I don't play, and those, I don't know how to fix. That simple, and yet I don't agree at all. Hecc I don't even think this is a true nerf to the AI since this opens the airlock for the AI to receive a ton of new cool features in the long run, features noone in their right mind would give them if they still had access to this. This feature as is makes noone want to add features to the AI, because it's 'already too powerful against Antagonists' and other phrasings. If we remove the negative features of the AI we can add more positive ones. If we keep these decisively negative features, noone will want to add more, positive or not. This is just another aspect of how awful this kind of feature is to the game.

The AI and 'borgs at their core shine at one primary thing which is providing utility to a round, there is positive and negative utility (utility that positvely impacts most players' enjoyment of a round and utility that negatively impacts most players enjoyment of a round), mech piloting is positive utility, unbolting airlocks is positive utility, unelectrifying airlocks is positive utility. Bolting Airlocks is negative utility, electrifying airlocks is negative utility. Why are they negative? because they're used almost exclusively to shut down the Antags and/or shut down Crew and lead to the AI being used by Security/Command against said actors to a level that makes Antags have to actively plan their entire round on how they should avoid you (the AI), if removing bad features is neutering, then so be it. But I don't think it's neutering because the AI is still very effective, it's just not going to be as crap.

I don't want to neuter the AI, I want to make the AI less agonizing to play with. After the change goes live, it can be buffed in other ways that are less detrimental to the game. A good example again is the new ability of AIs to interface with mechs and drive them. That's actually a v. good and fun feature for everyone. ? What can be classified as a 'neuter' goes as far and stops to its negative features that are actively detrimental to near everyone elses' enjoyment of a round, which includes bolting in Antags even on request of command/security.

Uhh.... no, it's not difficult to do shutters at all, you can do it in one click at the fire alarm and it covers the entire room instantly, it's actually easier than bolting, and it can't be used to lock in Antags. In this situation, it'll only prove to be a momentary nuisance to an Antag.

That can be said to be more their fault -- and you can always bring it to medicals attention right away in this figuritive implementation of it, and they can get to it for you. You still did your job v. good there ? But I dunno if I'm going to implement it like this, I might try to fix this problem in another way. O wait, I misunderstood. In this case it's just plainly not your fault -- but you'd see the blood/etc I'd assume.