[1 Dismissal] Expanding on Phoron Research and Cutting out the Mystical Hoodoo

[Kaed]

I had an idea that I thought up during a rant in another thread, and I thought I'd expand on it more here. There's currently a lot of contention about secret recipes, so I'll make it clear my viewpoint on them is this: Secret recipes are interesting. They provide a medium to put chemicals and substances in the game that can break or bend some of the normal balance rules, because they aren't generally accessible to the public. If everyone who ran chemistry could create a bottle of instant wormhole, then they would show up every shift, and it would just become the status quo. Walls would become pointless when everyone can jump in a wormhole and get a free trip to a secure location (albeit unpredictably)

But it's cool to have a wormhole in a bottle, and I don't think it should necessarily be taken out of the game, just kept as a secret recipe. What I don't really care for is the flavor and tone of the secret recipes that are being used right now. There are secret chemicals like liquid fire and light, 'azoth', 'elixir of life', and so on. Things with mystical names based on old alchemical concepts that frankly kind of clash with the status quo of the setting we're trying to run. Yes, wizards and cults might exist, and we have antagonists based on them, but people aren't supposed to understand and acknowledge the existence of the supernatural in a high tech research station just because we have some secret recipes. We have characters who are literally being geared up to be IC alchemists in search of the fabled philosophers stone and elixir of life. They do things like label their jars of chemical compounds after planets in the Sol system while dressing up in chaplains robes. Basically things that would cause them to be a laughingstock in any serious science community, but because the game supports their behavior on account of the blatantly mystical theme of the recipes they are making, what are you supposed to do about it?

So why don't we just keep all the secret recipes, but move them under a more setting friendly flavor. Phoron is our own personal unobtanium, it can be used to explain all sorts of unusual effects instead of declaring them to be magical alchemy. We could expand on the Toxins lab, renaming it to Phoron Research, and make it about discovering the mysteries of phoron instead just making bombs. I'd be willing to code some of this myself including certain phoron compounds that will act as building blocks for things in Phoron Research, and might do some neat but largely not unbalanced things, along rechristening some of the more mystical compounds to something less obviously magical, and removing some of the pointless recipes that are literally alchemy, like making gold and diamonds through transmutation (which serves very little actual game purpose other than being cool when we have mining that can acquire them much, much more efficiently)

(The point where the ingredients for the secret recipes are decided, is a higher end staff decision and is handled serverside, not by me).

This WILL probably mean all the recipes change, but after that, they should remain static. You can still pretend to be an alchemist if you want, but you'll be the crazy guy, rather than legitimately supported by the game code itself.

[Snakebittenn]

I don't see any point to this besides personal taste. Myself, ResearchMate and others calling ourselves alchemists is literally just us having fun. You can easily do it as a phoron researcher with a more serious bent.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

On one hand I enjoy the initiative, cooperation, and dialogue being held between players as they explore the mysteries of alchemy. This is a fictional setting and we are the writers, and the limits, boundaries, and genre of sciences are completely up to us to decide.

Being that we live in the present, it's hard for us to break out of our contemporary ideas about 'realistic'. If we were creating a roleplaying game in the late 1700's, we would build our medical department around the medical science of miasma theory. Germ theory would be an incredibly unrealistic quack science - how can tiny little things you can't even see make you sick, stupid?

On the other hand, we do have an overall aesthec and atmosphere and outside the rounds where we are leaning heavily on an underrated aspect of our setting (wizards) we should try to stick to the vague grounded reality of things. Having more technical terms for the chemicals might be a good way to retain the scifi while allowing scifant characters.

As irritated as it makes you, there are factions within our setting that take alchemy at face value if it is shown to create results.

[Kaed]

I don't see any point to this besides personal taste. Myself, ResearchMate and others calling ourselves alchemists is literally just us having fun. You can easily do it as a phoron researcher with a more serious bent.

 

And you can continue to call yourselves alchemists if you want, but understand that this would a personal choice for your characters to follow a certain aesthetic, not you following the lead of the game that arbitrarily contains chemicals called 'liquid fire' and 'azoth' and 'philosophers stone'. People may not take you very seriously and may think your quaint unathi pseudoscience is cute, or that someone pretty kooky must have designed ResearchMate.

Conflict of belief instead of being forced to shrug our shoulders and nod at what is presented to us makes for much more interesting dynamics, anyway.

[Snakebittenn]

Renaming the recipes is cool I guess, but I dunno why you would remove anything or change the recipes.

Considering it's possible to transmute elements into different ones by rearranging the protons, the Philosopher's Stone could easily just be a high-energy phoron based catalyst to power these reactions.

[Kaed]

Renaming the recipes is cool I guess, but I dunno why you would remove anything or change the recipes.

Considering it's possible to transmute elements into different ones by rearranging the protons, the Philosopher's Stone could easily just be a high-energy phoron based catalyst to power these reactions.

 

It could, but that would require a different format of transmutation which would involve combining a specific mass of matter to hypothetically fusion into gold, or taking a more massive element (i.e. uranium) and using the phoron catalyst to shave protons off of it to make gold. It would be slightly predictable because there are only so many actual 'elements' in the game, and most of the other chemicals are just compounds, there would be a certain logic and math to it.

Also, causing fusion/fission in your beaker would probably kill you, because of the energy release?

[Alberyk]

The philosopher's stone and the elixir of life's nature lies with the paranormal and the magic, there is no reason to rename them.

[Kaed]

The philosopher's stone and the elixir of life's nature lies with the paranormal and the magic, there is no reason to rename them.

 

As long as their ingredients somehow involve something you can only acquire from supernatural sources, I would be okay with that.

[Ornias]

This is a really good solution to a really obvious problem.

I don't see any point to this besides personal taste. Myself, ResearchMate and others calling ourselves alchemists is literally just us having fun. You can easily do it as a phoron researcher with a more serious bent.

Issue with this is that reasoning doesn't fly on a co-operative role-playing game. Calling yourself an alchemist legitimately on-station is grounds enough for most captains, heads of personnel, and research directors to fire you and send you to have your head checked, because magic is not known about in our setting and regarded in the same way it is now. What it means by playing a character that claims to be an alchemist and spends the entire shift looking into alchemical recipes is that people have to deal with you in one way or another, because your psuedo-science is not backed up by any legitimate scientific documentation made by man.

This is a really good solution, though. I'd advise making the effects more specialized, so not a 'cure all wounds' thing, but more like the wormhole stuff, a chemical that quickly infects limbs it splashes on, a chemical that kills virus', etc. etc. etc. Make it dangerous, because that's the forefront of research right there.

[Snakebittenn]

This is a really good solution to a really obvious problem.

I don't see any point to this besides personal taste. Myself, ResearchMate and others calling ourselves alchemists is literally just us having fun. You can easily do it as a phoron researcher with a more serious bent.

Issue with this is that reasoning doesn't fly on a co-operative role-playing game. Calling yourself an alchemist legitimately on-station is grounds enough for most captains, heads of personnel, and research directors to fire you and send you to have your head checked, because magic is not known about in our setting and regarded in the same way it is now. What it means by playing a character that claims to be an alchemist and spends the entire shift looking into alchemical recipes is that people have to deal with you in one way or another, because your psuedo-science is not backed up by any legitimate scientific documentation made by man.

This is a really good solution, though. I'd advise making the effects more specialized, so not a 'cure all wounds' thing, but more like the wormhole stuff, a chemical that quickly infects limbs it splashes on, a chemical that kills virus', etc. etc. etc. Make it dangerous, because that's the forefront of research right there.

 

..excepting the parts where I regularly display the chemicals i'm talking about but

ok

[LanceLynxx]

It might be just me, but this sounds like an IC issue that you just don’t like someone calling themselves alchemists.

While I also do find it silly, it’s not something I’d warrant making drama about.

If it legitimately worried you, consider filing complaint paperwork to command in-round, or character complaints/IRs instead.

Furthermore, the only difference between alchemy and chemistry is the approach. Alchemy is more like guesswork and not using a scientific method and estsblished rules of physics and chemistry, is not scientific, while chemistry is.

Otherwise they’rr the same. Mix A with B to get C.

And also, remove chaplain for the same reasons you stated rrgarding it being nystical hoodoo, who needs a Shaman on station? Only people with imaginary friends, send them to the shrink instead.

[Ornias]

..excepting the parts where I regularly display the chemicals i'm talking about but

ok

then you're habitually forcing people on-station to accept that magic and alchemy exists, or to have you fired before you get the chance too, both of which pose even worse problems.

nanotrasen didn't hire anyone to be an alchemist. they hired top-of-the-line scientists. making it actual research rather than magical hubbub would resolve this glaring issue.

this is like the same issue with R&D where nobody knows what's canon and what's not, but instead of just being about research it's about the existence of magic

[Snakebittenn]

..excepting the parts where I regularly display the chemicals i'm talking about but

ok

then you're habitually forcing people on-station to accept that magic and alchemy exists, or to have you fired before you get the chance too, both of which pose even worse problems.

nanotrasen didn't hire anyone to be an alchemist. they hired top-of-the-line scientists. making it actual research rather than magical hubbub would resolve this glaring issue.

this is like the same issue with R&D where nobody knows what's canon and what's not, but instead of just being about research it's about the existence of magic

 

how am I forcing people to believe things that already exist??

such as the chaplain being able to magically transform water into holy water with faith alone

[LanceLynxx]

..excepting the parts where I regularly display the chemicals i'm talking about but

ok

then you're habitually forcing people on-station to accept that magic and alchemy exists, or to have you fired before you get the chance too, both of which pose even worse problems.

 

You're not forcing anyone to accept magic, only chemical reagents that have a fluff name to them. They are not magic. They are chemistry. And very real.

..unless you are also pro-removal of the chaplain's ability to turn normal water into holy water, use a null rod/athame/staff and other things as well, then?

[Alberyk]

Nowhere it says that most of said chemicals are magic, with some obvious exception that have a fair justification. Besides other reagents have silly/popular/incorrect/brand names, such as space lube and space cleaner.

[TishinaStalker]

following the lead of the game that arbitrarily contains chemicals called 'liquid fire'

 

I, uh, just wanna point out real quick. Liquid fire is the least arbitrary thing, by your standards. The idea of liquid fire is very realistic and there's things like napalm. Sure, it's more of a gel, but it's basically the idea of "liquid" fire.

[Kaed]

following the lead of the game that arbitrarily contains chemicals called 'liquid fire'

 

I, uh, just wanna point out real quick. Liquid fire is the least arbitrary thing, by your standards. The idea of liquid fire is very realistic and there's things like napalm. Sure, it's more of a gel, but it's basically the idea of "liquid" fire.

 

Napalm already exists in the code. Liquid fire is a substance that is supposed to be actual, liquid fire, not something that sets on fire on contact with air, also known as an impossible concept.

[TishinaStalker]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that liquid fire is the one most grounded in reality than any of the other secret chems.

[Ornias]

You're not forcing anyone to accept magic, only chemical reagents that have a fluff name to them. They are not magic. They are chemistry. And very real.

..unless you are also pro-removal of the chaplain's ability to turn normal water into holy water, use a null rod/athame/staff and other things as well, then?

 

how am I forcing people to believe things that already exist??

such as the chaplain being able to magically transform water into holy water with faith alone

 

The chaplains abilities are only effective against things that are already inherently supernatural, such as vampires, wizards, and cultists, all of which, while as such any applications of them on station are non-canon. If we want to have magical recipes that can only be made from magically obtainable components, and thus are non-canonical, such as that one druid plant, then that would be something else. I don't know to what effect that's already true, due to not knowing the secret recipes.

And yes, it is forcing people to accept magic. Components like estus, azoth and the philosophers stone, at the very least, have strong magical overtones. And even if they are not inherently magical, then the description of them as 'alchemy' and discussing them as such is attributing their abilities to the supernatural. Putting them into a position where they're quite clearly not magical and instead poorly understood compounds with interesting yet dangerous effects would remedy these problems, without having to remove secret chemicals (which I really do not want to happen: secret chemicals provide rewards for investigation, talent, and dedication, and allow for one of the few cases of mechanical progress between rounds).

[LanceLynxx]

Liquid fire is a substance that is supposed to be actual, liquid fire, not something that sets on fire on contact with air, also known as an impossible concept.

 

Uhhhhh liquid fire only ignites in contact with organic matter, it's not "fire in a bottle", it requires an additional material, organic compounds, to ignite. Otherwise we could just spill it on the floor and make a fireplace.

Not really an impossible concept.

[Alberyk]

And yes, it is forcing people to accept magic. Components like estus, azoth and the philosophers stone, at the very least, have strong magical overtones. And even if they are not inherently magical, then the description of them as 'alchemy' and discussing them as such is attributing their abilities to the supernatural. Putting them into a position where they're quite clearly not magical and instead poorly understood compounds with interesting yet dangerous effects would remedy these problems, without having to remove secret chemicals (which I really do not want to happen: secret chemicals provide rewards for investigation, talent, and dedication, and allow for one of the few cases of mechanical progress between rounds).

 

In the same sense than wounds being fixed in less two minutes by injecting someone with a chemical could also be considered magic by the standards we have today. As I said, estus is not really magic, neither it is liquid fire. I will repeat again, since people fail to understand this; The only real magical secret chems that do exist are linked to something already related to magic. The fact that some players claim to be alchemist do not really matter here, most of the chems can be created using things anyone can find, and are not really magic.

[Sytic]

I'll put my chips in by saying: The magical sounding chems are the chems that REQUIRE magic.

I don't like admins or people who have inputted secret chems knowing those recipes. I think it's a fucking copout, by someone who did none of the work bar maybe adding the recipe to the code to learn the recipe, unlike everybody else. I think it should be contained to the four people who have the server config. But at the same time, the chemicals' names are magical, because they actually require some pretty magical shit. I can't say more without spoiling it.

[Skull132]

I don't like admins or people who have inputted secret chems knowing those recipes. I think it's a fucking copout, by someone who did none of the work bar maybe adding the recipe to the code to learn the recipe, unlike everybody else.

 

Just for clarity. Admins do not know the recipes. The global list of recipes is too long for view-variables to display.

[Bauser]

While there is some feeling that this is an in-character issue, it is logically irrefutable that the employment of literal *alchemists* in the research department legitimizes (and even broadcasts) the existence of magic in-universe and, as a consequence, forces other players to respect it.

The proof is like this:

NanoTrasen would not hire someone onto their prestigious research facility if it was widely believed that the discipline they practiced was only a pseudoscience.

Therefore, if NanoTrasen hires alchemists, they must believe that alchemy is a legitimate field of scientific study.

The fact that the only magic-themed reagents require magical compounds does not fix that issue. Having alchemists in science or chemistry means that the whole crew has to acknowledge at the very least that their employer regards alchemy as science. And THAT means, whenever they create or seriously discuss the magic-themed reagents/compounds, then the whole crew knows magic is real.

Legitimizing the magical aspects of alchemy by elevating it to a science breaks the barrier between science and fantasy. This isn't necessarily a problem, but it does force us to clarify which side of the issue our lore/setting falls on. I prefer hard sci-fi, but science fantasy can be great fun too (see: Shadowrun). The only thing that's definitely not fun is having a disjointed canon where no one knows if magic is 1) so rare as to be thought completely fake, or 2) a serious and highly accredited field of research. Our setting is incoherent until it's decided one way or the other.

[Azande]

Alchemy is literally an ancient pseudo-science that predated chemistry with the ultimate goals of transmuting metals into gold and creating everlasting life.

There are no magical aspects, it was just undereducated chemistry. Thank.