Should IPC's be heads?

[Tablespoon]

Inspired by talks I've had with people on the dreaded ss13 sub-reddit. Here's a vote. If there's a clear majority, I'll side with them. Easy-peasy.

And imma lock the thread the second comments get out of control. Actually this isn't even the place for comments. I'm just trying to gauge community wide opinion, raw numbers.

MOVED TO: http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=1243&p=11091#p11091

[Guest Menown]

Not a comment, more of a suggestion.

Bringing up what Skull said, the IPC Head positions, if allowed, should be heavily dependent on the position. HoS, CE, and Cap would be out of the question due to what those positions entitle. While the others aren't as much of a liability, barring the HoP's ability to assume an actual Captaincy.

[Skull132]

Oh, a note. I urge people against voting "Don't care."

This is a subject presented to the community, for the community. If you, for some reason or another, have not yet formed an opinion on the matter, then I advise you to do so now.

Regardless of which option wins, a parallel victory would have no votes with "Don't care," and everyone aware and armed with a personal opinion on the matter.

[ZipZero]

This is an IC issue, yet you're allowing this to be decided by someone's OOC opinions, which are unsupported by lore? A reminder that synthetic lore is incomplete.

[Tablespoon]

This is an IC issue, yet you're allowing this to be decided by someone's OOC opinions, which are unsupported by lore? A reminder that synthetic lore is incomplete.

 

Yes, IPC lore is still being written. And because it is being written this is the PERFECT time to get some feedback on the issue. The way it's being written may change depending on the opinion of our server at large. This very much stoped being an IC issue when people started throwing around accusations and insults in the last thread.

The only purpose of this thread is the gauge the opinions of the community at large, so the lore team can determine whether or not this is actually a major issue or if it was blown out of proportion.

This isn't a part of a personal vendetta against anyone, and I feel like every action I take is seen as some sort of personal attack or just a desire to validate my own opinions on the matter (which I swear to you I am absolutely not doing).

[ZipZero]

Yes, IPC lore is still being written. And because it is being written this is the PERFECT time to get some feedback on the issue. The way it's being written may change depending on the opinion of our server at large.

But there's nothing for people to base their opinions off of. That's like people voting for a law that hasn't been written yet.

[Skull132]

Consider this a poll for public opinion, Zip. Previously, the complaint was that the OOC actions of the staff were not inline with the community's desires. Now we're getting the community's feedback in a manner, so that we may evaluate and plan future actions in line with that.

Do know though, that no decision here has ever been final.

[Tablespoon]

Yes, IPC lore is still being written. And because it is being written this is the PERFECT time to get some feedback on the issue. The way it's being written may change depending on the opinion of our server at large.

But there's nothing for people to base their opinions off of. That's like people voting for a law that hasn't been written yet.

 

It's more like people debating a law in the process of being written. There's two clear options: for or against ipc's being heads of staff.

I think I see your point, so let me clarify some things that are set in stone:

IPCs are AIs that are free from any lawset and are inserted into a positronic chassis

IPCs for all intents and purposes are sentient and sapient (although people don't always view them as such)

IPC tech is fairly recent; IPC's are fairly new

Posibrain tech is fairly new

Everything else is up in the air. Covvy can probably weigh in more.

[Chaznoodles]

In my opinion, there really shouldn't be a huge restriction here. Roleplay is meant to be fun, and imposing huge restrictions on people because they want to try playing a different race may take away from the fun of it all.

[Susan]

What, is 'this is just a game' or 'we're here to have fun' some sort of be-all end-all sweeping statement to justify stupid or illogical changes? I thought we're supposed to be held to a higher standard as a heavy roleplay server. If people want fun without restrictions that aren't asinine and are based in logic (the law, species restrictions) then there are servers to go blow off steam on. Here, our server carries the tag of 'heavy roleplay' and just because something is 'fun' doesn't mean it's something that clicks with our server. Cutting people's asses off and making buttbots is fun, I admit. Do we want to start porting that to Aurora?

I don't think IPCs should be heads at all based on the fact that they're experimental machines with no lawsets and I don't believe it would be easy for humans to so readily overcome the prejudice against machines which has been going strong since manufacturing lines were staffed with robotic arms welding car doors. They are highly experimental and their design might not be entirely finished; you cannot expect an artificial person to be able to perform the same as a human in any given scenario. Downloading data is not the same as experience, and leaders must command the respect of their underlings. I don't see many people anywhere in space respecting IPCs as heads. They don't have the experience, they can't make snap emotional judgement calls like humans can, they don't have 'gut feelings', they can't break regs to do something even if it will save someone. They aren't head material.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

See people arguing against them for being new are relatively incorrect, For example how long have we known the Unathi and Tajarra? 50 years? How long have we had interactions with Robots, Artificial and Virtual intelligence? Far-longer I assume, Just because they have bodies and act even more like Humans due to the lack of debilitating laws.

[Cassie]

What, is 'this is just a game' or 'we're here to have fun' some sort of be-all end-all sweeping statement to justify stupid or illogical changes? I thought we're supposed to be held to a higher standard as a heavy roleplay server. If people want fun without restrictions that aren't asinine and are based in logic (the law, species restrictions) then there are servers to go blow off steam on. Here, our server carries the tag of 'heavy roleplay' and just because something is 'fun' doesn't mean it's something that clicks with our server.

 

If you want to go to that deep end, then do it. As a lore master I think you should consider the following:

1. A vast majority of security officers (yes, they're not police) break Conflict Management protocols which would actually be obligatory for a sec member on a high-profile space station, and this is never mentioned, ever. Go on everyone, put your security character on that test, see if they pass.

I understand people break the rules sometimes, but I've never seen anyone actually follow this. If I roleplay this when I play sec, everyone can.

2. I know this originates to bay13, but considering the above. How many Unathi officers would be fired?

3. Due to being covered in copious amounts of fur that can not be tied back, can Tajaran work in the kitchen? Their fur presents a physical hazard under most health and safety laws. Could this apply to adult Diona as well?

4. NT (as an establishment that has facilities that serves food) has a lot of mice. Under health and safety laws, an establishment shouldn't have that much mice if they have a kitchen and bar. They'd be shut down.

5. I break this rule and get away with it because it is fun. You see, bartenders shouldn't be able to choose what concentration of alcohol should be in the drinks unless it's a cocktail - it's actually illegal and you may be fined. It should be set, amirite? Tedious, who cares? Realism wins! (I've studied Hospitality, and it is showing.)

6. So Tajaran have only being discovered for 24 years? Unathi have only been discover for 23 years? Is that really enough time for humans to get used to them? Let alone start marrying and bonking them? (Or even the newly discovered races to each other?) They're an entire different species, think this through - would they honestly be leadership roles?

It's taken hundreds of years for humans to accept those of different sexuality, races, genders, and disabilities so from a sociological perspective this seems rather fast, actually too fast. Forget about Vit, you'd have a lot more bigots on station.

7. Surgeons, don't get me started on surgeons. What surgeon is happy to not do surgery without anesthesia? OH GEEBUS WHAT SURGEON REMOVES BODY PARTS WITHOUT THEIR PATIENT'S PERMISSION? Who wears contaminated clothing they've been wearing all day to operate? What surgeon lets their patient get off the operating table right after surgery? Why is no one using the post-surgery room? I've seen all happen on Aurora.

8. The term, 'baldie'. You'd have to excuse-lore this somehow. What is the 'baldie', why do people discriminate? Why are their incarceration rates higher?

Yes this is a heavy RP server, but with most heavy RP servers you've had an 'elephant in the room' on certain things. Since you already have cut corners on "Heavy RP", people are genuinely wondering why you're beating so hard down on IPCs when you actually don't need to. HRP should be realistic, but reaching hyper-realism ruins all the fun. You know this.

[Tablespoon]

Cassie brings up some good points, and it raises further questions about the roleplay vs fun debate that, believe me, myself and others have be having amongst ourselves for awhile.

I might make a thread on that topic where we can move the discussion.

Anyways...

I really want one question answered: what does te player lose by not being able to play an IPC head of staff? I'm talking the ooc player not the ic character. I'm not trying to come off as mean, I'm really look for an answer. I've asked the question before and have not gotten a direct answer. The option to make a human head of staff is always available.

[Valkrae]

The cold, calculating eyes of a robot can never fully be roleplayed out using a human being.

Humans, Tajarans, Skrell, and Unathi are by nature, flawed emotionally. They cannot come to work and separate themselves completely from their job.

An IPC, however, has none of these inhibitors. If, one would say, someone as an IPC was a HoS, They could RP them being completely black and white, and going completely by the regulations.

Here's a thought also; Why is it out of the picture that head IPCs be given a lawset, sort of like a loyalty implant, that keeps them from doing the things that people are afraid of?

[Susan]

I think Cassie's good points are so because of something else: More than half of her arguments consist of poor player characters and decisions (operating without anesthesia, players spawning a shit ton of mice and mappers choosing to include them because they're retarded, everyone on station being a leftist liberal pizza-identifying nongendered cube, players putting their characters in positions where they wouldn't be hired or tenuously retained) and are in no way a result of lore.

Literally everything except point six are a result of player decisions that aren't policed because I don't know why. I've been pining to get character policing for a very long time and I doubt it will ever happen. People using 'baldie' in game is a player fault. People not following the regulations of their job is a player fault. People being xenofucking sympathizers is a player fault. It has absolutely nothing to do with roleplay vs realism, it has more to do with people being allowed to be shitters with no consequences.

[Guest]

What, is 'this is just a game' or 'we're here to have fun' some sort of be-all end-all sweeping statement to justify stupid or illogical changes?

 

If you want to talk about stupid changes/additions, I could direct you to the creation of the LWAP and the Lawgiver.

But since this thread isn't about that, let's talk about what could possibly go wrong with IPCs being heads.

Go. Give me three reasons why it would be so terrible with mobile, free synthetics being in a command position. "Because they aren't trustworthy," hm, well, for some reason we have Tajara and Uneth in charge of security or some other fuck-all department. They've not even been acknowledged for over 50 years. The fact they're even considered sentient/sapient is a blessing for them.

"Because they're experimental machines", oh, well, the fact that the Tajara and the Unathi are in the Sol Union/Alliance is partly because um... why? How do they function in a workplace, how do they treat other races, are they even civil or what? An IPC's MMI would be programmed BY HUMANS, as defined to be the most trusted of all of the races available, to be a responsible-fucking-individual and not be shitters. There we have it, the IPC is now forced to be good command staff.

"Muh prejudice." Wait, what? Here we go again, with an issue that doesn't fucking apply to the other races because of some fuck-all reason that is the mess of the lore right now.

"They are highly experimental and their design might not be entirely finished; you cannot expect an artificial person to be able to perform the same as a human in any given scenario." The only fucking thing that makes IPCs different from the other synthetics is that they are not bound by any particular lawset to prevent them from establishing self-awareness, as a result, they become free-thinkers. They're almost human, it seems. They can even simulate emotion, if their modules are that complex. Bam, wham, boom, IPCs aren't fucking terrible.

In comparison to, say, the Tajara? They had a fucking revolution on their homeworld where the rebels MASSACRED their own government for some fuck-all reason. In this case, NT would have a conflict of interest and temporarily can every single cat that had a contract. Because they would not even take that minute risk of a rebel sympathizer. Fuck. That. For some special-snowflake reason, NT decided it was "oh, okay" to keep liable threats as employees onboard stations with sensitive and expensive equipment.

Then we have the Unathi. Bred like fucking warriors or warlords at birth, with near nonchalance for how they treat others. You can compare the fucking Somalian syndicate cells to these people. On their homeworld, even between clan members shit is constantly tense, nobody trusts anyone. With a culture like that, how can a supercorporation take that risk of potentially hiring someone who enslaved and killed people for a past living?

Now we come full-circle. Where do we all see the problem with IPCs having an issue in a head position? If anything, I see that the issue is SOMEWHERE ELSE.

IPCs have my vote. I don't see why a fucking human or all people would have an issue with a IPC as a CMO or Head of Security, because their modules are likely to be programmed to complete their prime directive and intended function. Meanwhile, in AMAZINGLY-WRITTEN-LORE-LAND, WOW, I see Tajaran HoSes lasering chucklefuck sec officers to death. Clearly, that HoS is not a liability at all and is sufficiently performing their duties to the letter with little to no conflict at all.

[Carver]

I'll make my point simple. I don't like filthy xeno heads, and I don't like robot heads. If it ain't human, it ain't fit to lead.

[canon35]

It's godamn 2457, robotics has gotten so advanced that there's an AI which controls the whole EXTRANET. Who's to say that a IPC can't be given a law set to make it loyal, download the needed infomation, and be programmed to be a good head? Hell, if I was working on the station, I'd trust a IPC to be a better leader than some wierd-as-hell 7 foot black lizard that likes to use pepperspray, brutally kills mice (Which, IMO, is a sign of a psychopath.). Or a constantly grumpy cat that insults everyone for a minor fuck-up and never tells anyone they do a good job.

[ZipZero]

I really want one question answered: what does te player lose by not being able to play an IPC head of staff? I'm talking the ooc player not the ic character. I'm not trying to come off as mean, I'm really look for an answer. I've asked the question before and have not gotten a direct answer. The option to make a human head of staff is always available.

Yes, there is the option to make a human head of staff (assuming you don't have all your character slots filled like I do). There is not, however, the option to make an IPC head of staff. You've said that a number of people, IC, would feel uncomfortable with a synthetic having power over them. I have two main things to say to this. One, many humans would be opposed to having aliens in similar positions, yet there is not a complete ban on those. Two, there isn't really any way for these opinions to be shown in-game. I want to see this discrimination, not just hear about it, but how often does the subject of IPC heads of staff come up IC? I'm sure it would actually be discussed if certain command positions were available to IPCs.

So, what does the player lose? They lose unique RP opportunities, that you can't get by playing a human.

[K0NFL1QT]

I voted yes, but I'm actually voting for a compromise. I'm voting for IPCs to be able to take CERTAIN head positions, but not all of them. The irony of an IPC Head of Personnel gives me chuckles. Furthermore, restricting HoP prevents IPCs from assuming Captain-ship in absence of a properly assigned crew member. I can see IPCs being very well adapted to the following roles though, due to the inherently logical foundation of their mind structure;-

- Chief Engineer: the memorisation of blueprints, pipe systems, the setup sequence for an engine and general construction methods would be akin to understanding basic biology for a human.

- Research Director: the memorisation of scientific principles, theories, historical biological studies, and the application of maths could all be handled simply by a synthetic intelligence with even the most rudimentary database/file storage system. And IPC brains are supposed to be bluespace integrated, plasma core gizmos in 2457.

- Head of Security: this position is a lot less about robusting Nuke Ops and more about strictly adhering to and enforcing Nanotrasen regulations and procedures on your own staff than most people probably realize. An IPC could chew through a book of regulations as big as its own head in short order, check for inconsistencies and form those guidelines into a temporary 'lawset' enforced by activating secondary Loyalty circuits.

Now what's holding IPCs back from Head status? Prevailing cultural notions of either inadequacy or superiority, in comparision to synthetics. Or to rephrase; the notion that, primarily humans, do not want to be taking orders from the very intelligences that they themselves created. It's Frankensteins monster, only Frankenstein has come home with degrees in several fields of Science and wants to talk to Dr Henry Frankenstein about bluespace physics as an equal. Holding IPCs back will, lorewise, either lead to synthetic rebellions or exile, be it externally forced or self imposed. Sooner or later humanity has to properly come to terms with the fact that it has created a new form of life, a new race, new species, that has become aware enough of itself to start asking the very same philosophical questions that humanity has pondered since ancient epochs.

Nanotrasen has to look at what IPCs have to offer their company and decide whether or not now is the time to start trialing IPCs for Command positions, perhaps with the caveat that no IPC can for any reason act as HoP or Captain under even the most dire circumstances or for any period of time. Even if trials prove successful, I doubt we'd see a properly appointed IPC Captain for decades after that.

[Frances]

Gameplay comes before lore. If lore takes away from the user experience, then I am a firm believer lore needs to be changed.

In this case, the fact is allowing aliens you discovered two decades ago, who have a heavy propensity to violence (or uprisings for Tajarans) into important management positions of human industry and corporations is vastly optimistic. I'd compare it to letting a native american run your fur-trading company in early 1700s North America, when most natives are actually still living in their own world, have not really integrated with your culture, and most people think a vast majority of them are up to weird and/or shady shit and there's heavy tensions between them and you proud colonizing European race.

This doesn't mean we can't let Tajarans/Unathi be heads. Maybe humanity is overly optimistic and welcoming of alien races, or maybe NanoTrasen is simply incredibly confident in their ability to maintain control over their alien subordinates. Point is, it doesn't matter what the in-universe reason is, what matters is lore willed it that way.

Why was this a change? If I remember correctly, Sue let Tajarans become heads with the clear intent of creating interesting conflict and tension over IC debates of Tajarans' roles in society. We had events, revolutions on the Tajaran homeworld, on-station investigations, job suspensions, etc.

I understand the desire to make races unique and prevent them from being simple visual reskins. And restricting them from head roles is a way to enforce fantasy racism when we tend to have an overly welcoming community, in which every character save for a rare few is super accepting of all aliens. So this should be the main argument for people who don't want IPC heads, because having Tajaran and Unathi heads is already stretching common sense.

However. I hope you understand that Tajaran and Unathi players have already been given the opportunity to play their characters as head roles, under a stretching of the lore similar to the one requested here, because it was deemed by the lore team to be more fun and interesting. So at this point, you are arbitrarily restraining IPC players from benefiting from the same privilege, in an attempt to bring balance to race variety. And this feels unfair to me - the end result is that it basically fucks over players of one race so another can enjoy expanded RP options.

[Susan]

Stop making broad sweeping statements about the validity of Tajaran as heads. It is not something that is wide spread. The species is being given a trial run in head positions of minimal importance (CE, HoS, CMO) compared to the three head honchos of the station (RD #1, Captain #2, HoP #3). This isn't something that's common, and your average Joe probably still has a human boss or a Skrellian boss.

No, the Board of Director's isn't kissing furry ass. Tajaran head positions are actually being threatened by the outbursts on Adhomai and the damage caused to the Human embassy.

[Frances]

Stop making broad sweeping statements about the validity of Tajaran as heads. It is not something that is wide spread. The species is being given a trial run in head positions of minimal importance (CE, HoS, CMO) compared to the three head honchos of the station (RD #1, Captain #2, HoP #3). This isn't something that's common, and your average Joe probably still has a human boss or a Skrellian boss.

No, the Board of Director's isn't kissing furry ass. Tajaran head positions are actually being threatened by the outbursts on Adhomai and the damage caused to the Human embassy.

This does not detract from the point that lore should be (and has been) constructed to follow gameplay unless it becomes absolutely jarring. And we still had ridiculous Unathi heads running rampant last I checked. From a gameplay perspective, I don't understand why these people can play but machines can't.

[Guest]

Honestly, I don't see why people even WANT other species as Heads.

The entire point of having Heads of Staff whitelisted, and having Heads, is to be an example to new players on how to act, roleplay, and behave. We are here to provide an example of how players of a heavy roleplay server should be acting.

I daresay by being a Head, you kind of give up some expectations of having fun, we are literally there to stamp papers for other people to do things they enjoy, make sure people don't blow the station up, call the shuttle when they blow it up anyways, and provide insight on how to behave to new players.

Heads of Staff have more of an OOC purpose than an IC purpose. Adding aliens too it just makes it weird, a human player, as all new players are due to lack of whitelist, will look to their Head for guidance, but if their Head is an asshole Unathi who is generally abrasive, they are going to think that in turn, they must be abrasive, some of the mannerisms of the species are just not fit for being examples to new players. Species whitelisted players can happily give people insight on how to be furry or platey or leafy, leave the commanding and instruction of departments and new players to the humans and Skrell.

[ZipZero]

leave the commanding and instruction of departments and new players to the humans and Skrell.

So, you would want to ban tajara and unathi from all head positions as well?