[Resolved] Player Complaint | JKJudgeX + ParadoxSpace | Discord Conduct

[Scheveningen]

This is a two-in-one complaint because it's describing one particular situation that happened last night.

BYOND Key: Scheveningen

Game ID: N/A, happened on discord, #general_channel.

Player Byond Key: JKJudgeX + ParadoxSpace

Staff involved: 0 administrators were online throughout this time, and I was already playing a round. Since it was already too late to report something directly to an admin, I chose to head to bed and report it when I had time.

Reason for complaint: Rule 2: Don't be a dick.

https://pastebin.com/7FRmnZUF [Edit: Fixed, discord copy-paste + scrolling is a pain.]

tl;dr; a Baystation moderator/lore developer for Aurora and a head whitelisted community member decide the discord rules don't matter and choose to flame each other back-and-forth with close to no administrator intervention because nobody was online to deal with it.

Both their behavior was really gross. It really says a lot about the state of our community when a staff member and someone who's been whitelisted thinks it's alright to flame each other in the public discord just to embarass themselves and everyone else watching the chat flood in. I can't imagine how this is a good use of anyone's time.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? No. An admin was not available to directly look into what transpired on discord last night, nor was one available for the duration that a round was happening on-server when they were needed.

Approximate Date/Time: Approx. 6PM EST, 06-Sept-18.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Guest

[Snakebittenn]

You left out a couple minutes of logs at the start.

teal deer is i was doing my service as a government agent in calling the mining cloak shit (the sprite is legitimately awful) and joked at snoopy for wearing it

when jkjudge enters the room and says yay toxicity

chada proceeds to tell him he has a low bar for toxicity, I agree that judge literally can't handle banter, eventually results in something like tough talk for someone who called all my characters throwaways (he said this like weeks ago) and me expressing again my grievances at jkjudge for that one time he openly admitted he was logging everything everyone said or something like that which still makes me uncomfortable

generally I agree this got out of hand and I apologise to being harsh to jkjudge but his interjection into the conversation with calling everyone kids and such was unwarranted

[Scheveningen]

I fixed the pastebin.

Also I spoke to Paradox and apparently I entirely understand the context now.

Here's an example of other interactions pertaining to JKJudgeX and the kind of player he is.

 

 

 

 

JKJudge literally keeps every single player he's had interactions with in an excel document and counts the amount of negative interactions he's had, and also documents all of their characters. He's admitted to this in the past.

 

 

 

 

(Big mobile images above)

Literally nevermind -- I do not have a problem with how ParadoxSpace and others have treated Judge. The outrage is wholly justified, but my current question right now is to what to take from a community member that behaves in such a manner, keeps record on other players to drop information bombs and literally combs through the forums to find someone's characters if a player somehow inconveniences them.

Is this someone that belongs in the community?

[Scheveningen]

Still sounds ridiculous that they somehow keep personal logs like that? Here's more admission:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the double post but this is just ridiculous. Is there anyone else who keeps an in-depth audit log around for malicious reasons like these? This dude's not even staff and he keeps hardcore notes like these to fight supposed metagrudging with more metagrudging??

 

 

Is there any other doubt? Mine is completely dismissed at this point. This is creepy as shit.

[Resilynn]

I mean, who doesn’t track all of this mentally, at least? I remember who claims to have a meta grudge against my characters, I remember the people who I’ve interacted positively with. What is the shipping manifest if not a document for tracking dispositions to other characters?

In a community where you can get player complaints over keeping personal logs and notes to defend yourself from future player complaints, you kind of need to keep personal logs and notes to defend yourself from future player complaints. I do this too, as a note.

I won’t make excuses for the discord chat. The half of it that I read seemed perfectly innocuous and not that different from how people generally talk to each other on general (I’m all for changing that culture), but we definitely shouldn’t punish people for being careful with record keeping.

[Scheveningen]

This is a little different from a shipping manifest, Resi. Judge keeps more on file than just what one characters thinks of another. He archives other people's complaints about you, he logs everything you've ever said to him. He keeps all of your characters on file and has a lot of ire against what he defines as "throwaway characters." He accuses people of metagrudging and waves around the idea that his audit log exists and shows off his supposed detective skills to anyone he dislikes. If you don't watch out, he'll put you on his list. Does that not sound disturbing to you whatsoever?

 

In a community where you can get player complaints over keeping personal logs and notes to defend yourself from future player complaints, you kind of need to keep personal logs and notes to defend yourself from future player complaints. I do this too, as a note.

 

If you have proof that someone's metagrudging you, why hold onto it and tell none of the staff about the encounter? The staff work on a principle of, "If it wasn't reported, it didn't happen" when it comes down to the rules being enforced. This community works because we have players willing to point out issues to staff so they can solve them and permit the rest of us to still have a more enjoyable experience.

Rubbing it in people's face that you have an audit log and special notes for specific community members while making veiled threats is a disgustingly toxic way to go about this.

This is not simple record-keeping. This is a community member that writes down every single detail to interactions with other players and their characters and proudly admits having it catalogued. Do you go around cataloging every single interaction with other people to an excel document? It's one thing to make a mental note of someone who insulted you and pulling up the screenshot to provide to an admin 2 minutes later. It's another to hold onto everything you've compiled to connect with some gigantic conspiracy theory being entertained to prove to everyone that there's a grand design to why people treat you a certain way.

 

 

Ever play Oblivion? Remember that Wood Elf in Skingrad, Glarthir, who believes that he is constantly being watched and conspired against?

Here's a little snippet of that character's habits:

 

"Glarthir will always detect and actively seek you out the first time you visit Skingrad, but his regular schedule is more peaceful, at least on the surface; he wakes up early every morning at 5am and immediately heads down to the Great Chapel of Julianos, hoping to catch a glimpse of Bernadette Peneles on her way to her morning prayer. At 8am, he crosses the eastern bridge of and wanders innocently around near the East Gate, secretly keeping an eye on Toutius Sextius when he leaves for the Castle. At 10am, he generally wanders around the southern part of town, keeping mostly to himself but also keeping an eye on Davide Surilie when he returns home for lunch at noon. From 2pm until 9pm, he stays inside his home, wandering around. He then eats a two-hour dinner until 11pm, before heading to bed. After talking to you, Glarthir will break off this routine and wait for you behind the Chapel every night between 10pm and 2am."

 

Maybe it is a stretch to make this comparison. The behavior is practically identical. It's better to be reassured that I am wrong and early in quashing this mentality Judge seems to display than to be right but too late to call attention to it.

[Faris]

I'm taking over this complaint with Coalf and Tailson.

[Chada1]

I think I count as involved in this? What I think is that JKJudge needs to just calm down and stop reacting violently to harmless jokes. That's really all I could ask. Everytime they do it, it causes drama. Both in the case of calling out Sun Sam for 'Metagrudging' for cracking a joke to taking me and Paradox's(On second thought, Paradox did go pretty far...) so just my goofing as an actual attack on Snoops character which I definitely didn't intend it as. (And if Snoop took it that way, at least in my case, I apologize)

You can't force people to be nice, but maybe this is a personal feeling but it ruins my mood everytime I see it happen and get accused of something I didn't do. That's basically all I can add. Effectively, he calls out 'Toxicity', while most of the toxicity as far as I can see is originating in him. You can see this in how he tried to bait me into insulting him while I was trying to drop it.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[JKJudgeX]

1) Resilynn pretty much nailed what I was going to say.

2) Re-read that discord. Did I say anything *really* all that bad by comparison to the standard, playful back and forth that goes on there? Really? ... really?

3) I keep a log because:

a) I have a bad memory.

b) I interact with a lot of characters, and I like to be able to play my characters as though they are mindful of the things that others have told them that are too numerous for me to understand.

c) My name/discord ID pops up a lot in the various discords/etc that I'm in. If I didn't keep a record of the stuff people say to me, I'd have to search for it every time to remember who is who... especially when people are switching their discord nicknames frequently because omg that's hilarious.

d) Believe it or not, I keep track of other things, too... nice things players have said about me, things to remember about other players like where they are from, which characters like tea as opposed to coffee so I can show up with the right drink to initiate conversation, etc, and up to date information about relations and relationships between characters (who is whose sister/brother, who is dating, etc). I just happen to extend it with OOC info when appropriate for my purposes.

Let's take a look at some of the claims here:

1) Schev says: "This is not simple record-keeping. This is a community member that writes down every single detail to interactions with other players and their characters and proudly admits having it catalogued." "JKJudge literally keeps every single player he's had interactions with in an excel document and counts the amount of negative interactions he's had, and also documents all of their characters. He's admitted to this in the past."

Response: No. It's simple record keeping. I only jot down the things that are worthy of note, which is not even 1% of what is directed towards me. Also, "literally", "every single"... "admitted" - that's some emotional, weighted language, man. I'm not "admitting" to it. I'm "Describing" it. There's no confession or reluctance here. I keep a log. I've not been told I'm not allowed to, and, because I've been warned about telling people about it, I don't even bring it up, and have only brought it up organically on one occasion, which I'll discuss later.

Paradox, Schev, and Sam, are 3 people with less-than-stellar records of interacting with others in discord, in game, and in OOC, so, it isn't really surprising that they'd be upset by someone quietly jotting down their treatment of others.

2) Schev, again: "Rubbing it in people's face that you have an audit log and special notes for specific community members while making veiled threats is a disgustingly toxic way to go about this." - I brought up the audit log on one occasion a long time ago shortly after needing to reference it for something (which I think was the second "joke" that Paradox made about killing my character in a canon round even after I'd asked him not to joke about that because it made me feel like not playing - and is highly a part of the reason you won't see any of my characters in canon rounds, since). People asked questions about it, I answered them. They got more and more upset about this ... apparently unreasonable behavior... and blew it out of proportion from being a simple list of things I'm keeping an eye on into some kind of book of sin that encompasses all of the activities they've ever taken in real life and in game. If you read the ... LOG ... that was taken of discord you'll see that in my responses I'm pretty much avoiding talking about the audit log because I don't want to trigger anyone.

3) Chada this time: "What I think is that JKJudge needs to just calm down and stop reacting violently to harmless jokes. " - violently? I'm afraid I just don't see "violently" in there. I see jokes thrown back at jokes, and then feelings apparently inflamed enough to come sprinting to the forums with a relatively empty complaint bomb.

Why did this happen?

I came into discord to see Paradox telling someone to delete their character because he didn't like how they looked ... cape, colors, etc... (he was joking, I'm sure)... so, I jokingly chimed in with "Yay, toxicity"... which for some reason was taken super-seriously, as though I was on a cocaine fueled rampage, hammering my keys through the keyboard with unbridled rage, even though from my perspective I was only half-paying attention and sort of randomly joking around.

I was then accused of not being able to handle banter, and, well, to be 100% blunt, it looks like my subsequent banter struck some chords with some people, because I was just playin'.

It's probably no secret that Schev and I have had our differences. Even while he was a mod, which pretty much caused me to step away until that crashed and burned, we had difficulties. I'd kinda prefer if the guy just put me on ignore and left me alone, but, here we are again for some ridiculous, hard to understand, somewhat creepy and unsettling reason.

And I'll be 100% honest, I think Paradox is *actually* highly toxic in discord, but, I was joking when I said yay, toxicity above because I hadn't even realized it was paradox yet since his name had (yet again) changed since the last time I interacted with him (I had him on ignore for a while, too).

Anyway, sorry if I hurt your feelings, that wasn't my intention, but maybe my banter was a little rough? (I'd need convincing of that to be 100% honest, but, I offer the apology all the same). I will lessen my interactions in discord, especially with those noted here.

Let me know if you need further reply.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Guest

[JKJudgeX]

Sorry for the double-post, but, on a second read of all of this, it *does* seem a little like at least a couple of players here *do* kinda have a meta-grudge thing against me going.

Schev probably because I chimed in on what a terrible mod he was, and Paradox probably because I called some of his nearly 30 characters throwaway (which I admit was in bad form, they might actually all be of HRP quality for all I know - my only IC interactions with him that I know about have been poorish, though).

[Chada1]

Apology accepted, and if you'll try not to be so confrontational (Or at least make it *Clear* you are joking, because I did Not take what you said as joking) then I think that's it for me.

Edit: And no, violently is the correct term. Because the way you were phrasing things were seemingly meant to offend-- You were effectively acting like a certified troll. That is not banter, or I didn't think it was.

Edit 2: I would like to also point out that Paradox indeed was decently out of the banter zone near the start of the conversation and my frame for 'Your line for banter is ridiculous' had been based off of the Sun Sam situation I was present for ages ago.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Guest

[Scheveningen]

2) Re-read that discord. Did I say anything *really* all that bad by comparison to the standard, playful back and forth that goes on there? Really? ... really?

 

Considering your typical, purposefully baiting and intentionally inflammatory behavior, I can probably chance to take a risk to say you were being intentionally inflammatory and trying to rile up a response out of everyone involved. I, a third party, told you both to cut it out and you decided to attack me back for it and call me a "pussy" and a "snitch" and then go "haha just kidding" like it's so easy to take back such comments. Why do you consider this acceptable behavior?

 

3) I keep a log because:

a) I have a bad memory.

b) I interact with a lot of characters, and I like to be able to play my characters as though they are mindful of the things that others have told them that are too numerous for me to understand.

c) My name/discord ID pops up a lot in the various discords/etc that I'm in. If I didn't keep a record of the stuff people say to me, I'd have to search for it every time to remember who is who... especially when people are switching their discord nicknames frequently because omg that's hilarious.

d) Believe it or not, I keep track of other things, too... nice things players have said about me, things to remember about other players like where they are from, which characters like tea as opposed to coffee so I can show up with the right drink to initiate conversation, etc, and up to date information about relations and relationships between characters (who is whose sister/brother, who is dating, etc). I just happen to extend it with OOC info when appropriate for my purposes.

 

There's a really good reason as to why telling everyone that you keep a diary to write about how much you like/dislike other people is widely considered creepy and weird. It is information no one needs to know to start with, because the fact you apparently keep a manifest to catalogue all of the inconveniences and the good things people have done unto you is incredibly strange.

 

 

And then you try to threaten Sam with your very existence of a manifest and 'having a statement on record' when Sam makes a clearly not-to-be-taken-seriously statement, like, what?

 

Response: No. It's simple record keeping. I only jot down the things that are worthy of note, which is not even 1% of what is directed towards me. Also, "literally", "every single"... "admitted" - that's some emotional, weighted language, man. I'm not "admitting" to it. I'm "Describing" it. There's no confession or reluctance here. I keep a log. I've not been told I'm not allowed to, and, because I've been warned about telling people about it, I don't even bring it up, and have only brought it up organically on one occasion, which I'll discuss later.

 

Bullshit. You just contradicted yourself, as seen here:

 

d) Believe it or not, I keep track of other things, too... nice things players have said about me, things to remember about other players like where they are from, which characters like tea as opposed to coffee so I can show up with the right drink to initiate conversation, etc, and up to date information about relations and relationships between characters (who is whose sister/brother, who is dating, etc). I just happen to extend it with OOC info when appropriate for my purposes.

 

You don't just catalog 'worthy' or 'notable' things. You make note of very specific details.

The rest of Judge's comments are riddled with "tu quoque" fallacies and other delusions founded on the belief that I somehow hold a metagrudge against you because I'm the one that has to step up to report your awful behavior. The very notion that you can dismiss me, Chada, Paradox, SunSam and anyone else that has had negative experiences with you because you think we're all metagrudging you (which there is no proof of, find me a time where my character did something against yours in-game because of OOC motivations and we'll talk) is disingenuous and incredibly toxic. This complaint is about you. It is not about anyone else. You need justification for your own actions. Accusing other people of metagrudging you is not an excuse for your toxic discord behavior and waving around threats as if you matter more than other community members in this community.

You can't even come up with an original response without flinging the same accusations of being "creepy" and "metagrudging" straight back at me. Is it suddenly creepy to ask for action against someone who admits they document a ton of negative things about people without their explicit consent? What the fuck?

Legit, how is keeping this on record to yourself to sit on at all reassuring or helpful to resolve your own issues? And how does threatening people either high-key or low-key about how you have them on audit logging help you resolve your issues with other members of the community?

Why do you think it's okay in any context to threaten to have someone permabanned?

[JKJudgeX]

1) Fact: You do not know what I document.

2) Fact: You do not know the extent of what I document.

3) Fact: Documenting people's public behavior is not against any rule.

4) Fact: Informing people that you are keeping receipts for the shitty things they say to you just after they've said them is also not against any rule.

5) Fact: Most of what I have on record is ALSO on record in the discord, in round logs, and in other places, anyway.

6) Fact: I decide what is WORTHY OF NOTE for me to record in my own personal audit logs. Not you. If a character brings me a tea and has an interesting conversation with me, I might note it. If a player calls me a lying shithead and has an emotional outburst at me... I might note it. I might not. It's none of your business unless I tell you about it. Your assumptions are mostly wrong about what I even record, I promise, and that's not really your business either so, consider that a gift.

If someone threatens to murder your character in a canon round, and then they later follow through on that threat for anything other than the most amazing IC reasons, I would see that as grounds for requesting a permanent ban.

I'm sorry you disagree.

I'm sorry that you take my note-taking as some kind of threat or something entirely negative when I've clearly explained that it isn't. If you don't want to talk about what I keep in my own personal records, then you, and Paradox, should stop bringing it up, because I have no intention of "rubbing it in" anyone's "face" that I keep such records.

I think it's pretty lame that you came here with this little hit-piece over pretty much nothing, and spent all that time making screenshots, and posting them OUT OF CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER in order to paint the most negative picture of me, possible. Honestly, I think that kind of behavior is worth a permanent ban, but, it lines up with your previous vendetta-seeking behavior and grudge-holding/misrepresenting the facts to weaponize the administration in your favor, so, I highly doubt any serious note will be taken of it. It's at the very least an epic waste of all of our time.

And in closing, the information I choose to keep is my own business except for where I've explicitly let it be known otherwise (which has only been done in response to actions that warranted it, or questions regarding what I keep.)

[Coalf]

Hello. We've taken some time to review logs and discuss this along with Tailson and Aboshehab and came to this conclusion.

Record keeping of this detailed can be called into questions by other individuals, however it is not against the rules unless it's used to infringe on the anonymity of the player, revealing information they do not wish to be revealed or outright stalking them, none of this has been done by Judge.

It is perfectly okay to show off these logs if you feel like they would help an investigation. To the appropriate staff.

Showing off or talking about the fact you hold logs to the people you plan on eventually using them against is intimidation.

To define intimidation: "to compel or deter by or as if by threats".

Intimidation is included within the "Don't be a dick" rule.

Thus the resolution is as follows:

[mention]JKJudgeX[/mention], stop showing or talking about this document in public.

We aren't forbidding you from showing it to a staff member who is currently investigating an issue and you feel like your logs could help. PRIVATELY.

If people want to go and laugh at you, deconstruct your arguments or in general dangle this above your head in the aurora discord, contact staff since that is also included in the "Don't be a dick rule."

We however can't ban total discussion of previous issues, keep that in mind.

Most points in this thread have been exaggarated and we discourage that in the future when making a report in order to remain objective.

We don't believe [mention]ParadoxSpace[/mention] or anyone else in the chat stepped out of line with their agressivity, however it would be welcome if people stopped using "banter" as an excuse to be abrassive and disrespectful to each other. You don't win arguments by making fun of the other side.

If you want to have an argument, respect each other.

This complaint will be closed in 24 hours if no other issues arise.

[Coalf]

Closing and archiving.