Remove roundstart setup entirely

[kyres1]

Over the course of a pretty long time now we’ve grown accustomed to the same old same old of roundstart repetition. The entire game, for the first twenty to thirty minutes, is ultimately the same no matter what and antagonists disrupting this rarely brings anything good and is so discouraged it barely happens at all.

For engineering, the engine and shields, which can take around twenty minutes at times. While the engine itself gets credit in the sense that its setup can be tweaked and adjusted to player preference, this is ultimately over complication for no reason other than trying new things to break repetition. Just stick phoron in it and it’ll power the station no matter what is thrown at it. As for shields I haven’t seen a single person against a premade shield room already being set up at round start for player convenience.

For medical, most jobs barring chemist lack much setup. You grab your stuff and stare at sensors, which is a problem for another thread. For chemists, setup is pure agony. Refining this setup is fun at times but it takes as long as your CMO demands of it, which often times is over half an hour of just mixing and dispensing chemicals. Once you’ve gotten the setup refined, you ultimately become a robot that puts stuff in a fridge until you’re allowed to leave. Some people find even that fun though, so I don’t know.

For R&D, oh boy. Every single thing except toxins needs setup, often times taking up to the first half of the shift to complete if you aren’t already experienced in it or aren’t rushing it to get it over with. To start, R&D levels are incredibly simple to maximize and can be done in ten minutes. Beyond that, they are an absolute requirement as you will soon be necessary for many basic commodities the station will ask of R&D as the shift progresses, from super/hyper cells to integrated circuit printers and so on. Xenoarchaeology can go an entire shift without running into an artifact, depending on how lucky they are, how far away it is and how much of a level is in their way. Gear from R&D changes this, of course. After finding it, one misclick or mistake can destroy the entire artifact and reset all of your work or completely wipe any chance of getting anything done that shift. Telescience can be calibrated relatively quickly from what I’ve seen, though I don’t know how to use it myself, I’ve seen Lance set it up in just five minutes as Sukhoi. Robotics is entirely dependent on R&D for resources and upgrades. Without upgrades, robotics just consumes way too many resources to be of any use and everything takes way too long.

For supply, it’s pretty obvious. Sorting the warehouse is totally optional and, even if not, is typically done at the player’s pace and the items inside can provide interesting things for the round. When forced, it’s tedious as hell and usually is grounds to set your quartermaster on fire. Mining, on the other hand, is a rush. You are forced to get your first haul in as soon as possible with zero safety gear whatsoever for EVA, refine it and take it to research in the first 20 minutes every single shift without fail. One lag spike or visual stutter can mean the end of your round, so make sure to stay close to that airlock when you’re digging with that shovel. Once your first haul is in, you pray R&D has gotten sufficient levels for your tactical frame/experimental converter/uranium cell/AOE explosion chip or you’re going to be waiting ten to twenty minutes extra for it. After that, you go back out and utterly destroy the asteroid in ten minutes flat zooming around with your jetpack RIG and 20x20 AOE rock vaporizer, bring in a 20k point haul and go to the bar. After an hour you can finally roleplay.

For every job under the civilian department, it’s usually pretty easy. In recent time, chef has become a much easier and fun role and hydroponics remains as the only civilian job with any “set up.” This setup is quick, easy, and entirely up to the player to dictate in regards to speed and variety. One would almost say it’s not tedious.

For security, our most consistently populous department, there’s no setup. You put your gear on and walk out of your department. You are incentivized and almost required to involve yourself in every major event to occur on the station.

One of these things is not like the others.

The point here is pretty obvious. Roundstart set up contributes very little to the whole point of the server, which is roleplay. There are plenty of mechanic incentives to push roleplay in game. It’s an incredibly complex game, and there is so much more to do than what you do in the first ten to twenty minutes. Thus, remove it entirely. Here’s how I think that would work.

Starting with engineering, have the engine’s resources for startup readily available rather than split between departmental access. This resource being phoron canisters, but someone probably would want more than just that for their unique engine setups. For shields, COMPLETELY have them setup roundstart. Wired, secured and behind engineering access windoors or airlocks in a specially made chamber or room. Engineers should not be expected to repeat this every single round.

Moving onto medical, more specifically chemistry, having very basic chems or complex chems in small quantities done at round start and in the fridge would be excellent. Half a bottle of peridaxon in the fridge, and individual bottles of hyronalin, dylovene, bicaridine and dermaline, normal dexalin and that’s it. The specifics should definitely be argued as I’m not even certain of those numbers, but the presence of any of that would ensure medical is not handicapped despite being filled to the brim with doctors by just lacking a chemist. Furthermore, a chemist would still be necessary for the obviously complex treatments and very fun and engaging cloning mechanics ™.

For R&D, basic levels (5 under everything and 4 bluespace, barring illegal/antagonist levels) at round start would address plenty of issues. Setup would be cut down to just a few minutes if even that and R&D would still be functional with a lab assistant or to a roboticist who doesn’t know how to acquire levels. Xenoarchaeology would be very hard to tweak. Giving them an accelerator of any kind, however, or even a drill would make their jobs thousands of times easier. Telescience does not need to be calibrated at round start and could easily be excused ICly as it’s “turned off” before the shift or something, but that would certainly help considering about 90% of people don’t know how that works whatsoever.

For supply, leave cargo outside of mining as is. For mining, just give them magboots and decent accelerators immediately. Remember when accelerators had 3x3 blast radius? Just figure out the accelerator upgrades needed to mimic that behavior, and make a similar accelerator available to all four miners roundstart. It’s not that complicated, nor do we need to outright punish the players just for having picked miner.

For civilian, nothing really needs to be changed. After what Burger did with hunger/thirst and chef mechanics I have heard very little in the way of complaining.

For security, obviously nothing needs to be changed.

In recent times we've suffered from massive population drop and many times you will find yourself completely alone in any role which requires any of the above to enjoy the game. This fluctuates massively and is obviously because of school and work, but nonetheless the drop is still there. I’m looking forward to seeing how something like this could be implemented or what people actually think of it in practice.

[furrycactus]

I can agree with most of this, honestly. Of course, I still want my custom engine setups, but I have a possible proposal for that. There's a small square on the sublevel that's just space, looks like this:

 

 

Could possibly remove the canisters from atmos and move them elsewhere, somewhere where access is shared. Maybe like this?

 

 

This way people can still do their custom setups if they want, and still set up the engine too, without having to hack into atmospherics.

[kyres1]

I can agree with most of this, honestly. Of course, I still want my custom engine setups, but I have a possible proposal for that. There's a small square on the sublevel that's just space, looks like this:

 

 

Could possibly remove the canisters from atmos and move them elsewhere, somewhere where access is shared. Maybe like this?

 

 

This way people can still do their custom setups if they want, and still set up the engine too, without having to hack into atmospherics.

 

This is a great start but at the same time there's a huge unused area of maintenance just north of hard storage that lacks anything besides pipes and wires. Why not use that instead? All it'd take is being expanded by one or two tiles and it could ultimately be the same thing, considering how wide it is.

[Zaeperry99]

I'm in full support of simplifying the engine set up so that, if nothing else, an entire crew is less likely to be in the dark for two hours due to the constant shortage of engineers from 11PM-8AM CDT since setting it up with or without an AI would be a little bit easier.

As for medical, I think it'd probably be better to go with a slightly different setup. My go-to every round as CMO is keloderm, bicaridine, dex+, alkysine and clonex. I could definitely see doing just alkysine and hyronalin as those are the only two treatments for common ailments which require a chemist to fix. (Side-note: Setting up chemistry for the first 10 rounds is definitely my least favorite part ever of playing CMO, and I greatly regret giving my CMO the capability to do it. This would be a godsend.)

[furrycactus]

I can agree with most of this, honestly. Of course, I still want my custom engine setups, but I have a possible proposal for that. There's a small square on the sublevel that's just space, looks like this:

 

 

Could possibly remove the canisters from atmos and move them elsewhere, somewhere where access is shared. Maybe like this?

 

 

This way people can still do their custom setups if they want, and still set up the engine too, without having to hack into atmospherics.

 

This is a great start but at the same time there's a huge unused area of maintenance just north of hard storage that lacks anything besides pipes and wires. Why not use that instead? All it'd take is being expanded by one or two tiles and it could ultimately be the same thing, considering how wide it is.

 

How's this seem?

 

[kyres1]

Seems fantastic. I like it. Hopefully that availability will make setting up the engine less tedious.

[Doxxmedearly]

Overall, I think this is a very good suggestion. Some of these mechanics need to be at least somewhat in place for new players to learn. Leaving things half-setup retains this while cutting some tedium.

 

Moving onto medical, more specifically chemistry, having very basic chems or complex chems in small quantities done at round start and in the fridge would be excellent. Half a bottle of peridaxon in the fridge, and individual bottles of hyronalin, dylovene, bicaridine and dermaline, normal dexalin and that’s it. The specifics should definitely be argued as I’m not even certain of those numbers, but the presence of any of that would ensure medical is not handicapped despite being filled to the brim with doctors by just lacking a chemist.

It is incredibly difficult to operate medical with the chems available without a chemist/cmo. However, one can "make do" with most treatment by mixing up inaprovaline and dylovene into tricord. But if there's internal bleeding and you don't have a chemist or surgeon? Hope those tubes had time to cool!

As far as the specifics of this... Dylovene is in vendors already. Dexalin is in the sleeper. For a medical department to get by without a chemist, you'd probably want a bottle of bicaridine, dermaline, and a half bottle of peridaxon. MAYBE Hyronalin. Medbay would be able to function for a bit, if a little awkwardly. They'd still be in a bad place for multiple emergencies, but shit happens. This means newbie chemists can still work on the basics.

 

For shields, COMPLETELY have them setup roundstart. Wired, secured and behind engineering access windoors or airlocks in a specially made chamber or room. Engineers should not be expected to repeat this every single round.

Agreed. This is tedious and barely teaches anything.

 

For supply, leave cargo outside of mining as is.

Yeah. Sorting is kinda fun because of all the neat shit you find. Honestly I view shipping crates as optional; most departments barely care about the stuff they get, and the only pressure you get regarding time crunch depends entirely on the QM/HoP.

 

For mining, just give them magboots and decent accelerators immediately. Remember when accelerators had 3x3 blast radius? Just figure out the accelerator upgrades needed to mimic that behavior, and make a similar accelerator available to all four miners roundstart. It’s not that complicated, nor do we need to outright punish the players just for having picked miner.

This is mostly good, but the 3x3 starting KA is a little much. I did think that pickaxes were getting replaced with KAs though, when the cKA update happened. Honestly just making the class E or D available at the start, along with mags, would make sense and speed up initial production tremendously. Even engineering gets mags.

[Conspiir]

For supply, leave cargo outside of mining as is. For mining, just give them magboots and decent accelerators immediately. Remember when accelerators had 3x3 blast radius? Just figure out the accelerator upgrades needed to mimic that behavior, and make a similar accelerator available to all four miners roundstart. It’s not that complicated, nor do we need to outright punish the players just for having picked miner.

 

Through quite a bit literally a few minutes of experimentation, and what I can remember off the top of my head, I've found that the cheapest 3x3 radius KA is as follows:

Medium frame

Meteor Core Converter

Kinetic Cell (technically, advanced pump works, but you have pump like 20 times for 2 shots and I think people would seppuku. I would.)

No chip. Focus removes the 3x3, capacity is just bad, aoe makes it giant, who cares about any other chip that you never find anywhere ever.

A bit much. Professional converters don't give any sort of splash, and meteor converters are arguably the best.

Maybe I'm biased, but I actually like mining's round setup. I like RnD's too. But it's difficult if you've never done it before. Things should be difficult if you've never done them before. But they shouldn't be impossible. RnD is actually impossible if you're not taught or find a guide in the WI. You just kind of stand there, being useless and feeling bad about it. And maybe you experiment a bit, but believe it or not, experimentation in science gets you nowhere. This isn't a failing of "roundstart is boring and tedious", this is a failing of how RnD works in SS13. There's a deeper problem there and just having the job done for you isn't going to fix that.

Apparently, the last time we changed jobs to not have anything to really improve on, we lost our atmospheric techs. So we definitely shouldn't start RnD with the job basically done.

Mining's gameplay, on the other hand, is literally to go out and break turf. That is it. There is nothing else. Conversely, you have ever-changing elements in other departments, such as medical treating those that come in, security responding to calls, Research building circuits (another thing that could be improved by porting more) or finding RNG artifacts (on purpose, and not accidentally stumbling across a bowl of endless lube) or even messing with chemistry (and setting yourself on fire by accidentally making napalm), engineering fixing the station when it blows up, cook and bartender and hydroponics creating things as-needed, janitors--... I could really go on, but it all comes back to the fact mining does not have that.

You give science materials to make cool things no one ever requests and make a lot of virtual money for the station that goes nowhere and that's the job. It's not a bad job, by any means, but giving them KAs isn't going to fix that problem. The low class KAs are arguably worse than just a mining drill.

Give them mag boots. Give them mining drills instead of having to pay 200 points for it. Like, pickaxes and shovels, really? Are we in medieval times now?

[Doxxmedearly]

God, I forgot the drills even existed. That's a way better start replacement.

[kyres1]

God, I forgot the drills even existed. That's a way better start replacement.

 

So did I. A drill and boots would change the game for miners, and for the best. A KA might be unnecessary.

[Asheram]

*coughs* If you really want to improve the life of mining then there's always the industrial drill which Science never builds for them?

Let mining start with a very basic industrial drill setup and Science would even have something to upgrade.

[furrycactus]

Made a PR for the engineering side of things that I could do after talkin' with Kyres a bit.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5462

EDIT: Now includes roundstart magboots for miners.

[Soultheif96]

Reviving this thread as in interesting to negate certain needs of each departments.

I will not touch basis with security nor supply as I barely touch them.

Mining, I would encourage them to have at least have a drill off the bat out of the lockers to prevent people who are not miners have them. Having them not be present is as hypocritical as the Aut'akh have a hand for one. Also implement KA upgrade parts in the vendors as the wiki shows them but is not present in-game. This would make the life of a miner at least less tedious and not as reliant on science.

Science, I would say that yes, bump the research levels initially so that scientists can begin immediately with their research, given they are creative with their ideas. This would ease the work tensions between robotics and RnD. Only thing they need from RnD at that point would be upgrades to the machines in robotics.

Medical, I would kill for an initial set up fridge that has at least these following chemicals: 2x Kelotane, 2x Bicaridine, 1x Peridaxon, and 1x Hyronalin. If they were half a bottle each, I would not careless either as it keeps people from abusing it while chemists can still be essential. I would also ask for one tube of nanopaste in the back storage to allow surgeries on prosthetic organs. 

Engineering, I just say have the shields be set already and not be dealt with ever until it needs to be flicked on. The wiki has the set-up encouraged by engineering players. Do not touch the engine stuff as is, if the engineers want to get creative, they have the option to. 

[Pratepresidenten]

I cant say I agree with any of this. I talked about some of this over discord but I will post it here aswell.

There comes a point where things are too easy and staff becomes superfluous. I understand the issue of lacking resources and monotony, but this isnt the right fix for it.

Ive heard people brag about "Finishing R&D" in seven minutes and same thing for chemistry, and the engine. People absofuckinglutely rush these things and they kinda shaft it for others should there be the ones that wants to learn or do something. Its a roleplaying game, not a speedrun of who can do it the fastest. And now there are suggestions to make even more of this pre-set.

To give an extreme example: If you truly want to have as much pre-set to prevent monotony and boredom, we could compress all of medical into a 3x3 room and have its staff cut down to one medical technician to fetch injured and operate the singular machine inside said room, namely the autodoc. Not like medical do anything but watch suit sensors and get bitched at, right?

 

If anything, we should be giving the departments more shit to do. Not necessarily monotonous shit like dragging a ton of machines to the surface and set up every single round, but optional things. A slew of optional things you can incorporate into your shift, be it for teaching purposes or just plain fun.