Recent Tesla Nerfs

[Snakebittenn]

As a recent bugfix also became a nerf (completely under my nose, my fault), the tesla has been changed lately by @PoZe
>There is no max limit of balls, but if Tesla has 9 or more balls it will start melting down tesla coils and grounding rods. If Tesla has 10 or more balls it will start to target emitters and melt them as well.

Personally, I don't like it. I don't want to have to constantly watch the Tesla even if I've ordered extra grounding rods. The Tesla doesn't generate too much power to begin with at 10 balls compared to a standard phoron setup. It's a needless nerf.

Edited January 28, 2019 by PoZe

[PoZe]

16 Balls give 4.02167e+006W in power network.  10 balls would give 3.5 millions W, We could increase limit of balls to 15-20. But mainly I am afraid for performance, we need to test it more. I was also thinking of increasing power each ball produces or give a multiplier to it. But the limit of balls/ melting of coils/rods/emitters will remain as it is the only means for Tesla to escape, plus monitor it once in a while. On setting 0 Tesla will remain at 2-3 balls max, at 1 it will eventually get to 15-20, but again you are not meant to leave experimental engine like this without monitoring it.

Edited January 27, 2019 by PoZe

[Arrow768]

1 hour ago, ParadoxSpace said:

As a recent bugfix also became a nerf (completely under my nose, my fault), the tesla has been changed lately by @PoZe
>There is no max limit of balls, but if Tesla has 9 or more balls it will start melting down tesla coils and grounding rods. If Tesla has 10 or more balls it will start to target emitters and melt them as well.

Personally, I don't like it. I don't want to have to constantly watch the Tesla even if I've ordered extra grounding rods. The Tesla doesn't generate too much power to begin with at 10 balls compared to a standard phoron setup. It's a needless nerf.

You have explained the problem, but did not tell us what you want to achieve with this suggestion.

[Skull132]

Can you extrapolate further as to why you "Don't like it"?

Here are some considerations:

• The tesla is, for all intents and purposes, a singularity type engine. Which means you set up containment, blast it up to a reasonable level with the PA, then chuck the PA off to 0, and wait for it to dwindle until you need to hit it again. As I commented in code dungeon, it seems like someone did not clamp a calculation which meant a strict comparison to 0 messed up the dwindling. And just like the singularity engine, once you push it past a certain point, it will break containment and proceed to zap you silly. On the singularity, this criticality was represented with size, with the tesla engine, it is now represented by the count of balls.
• The tesla is a secondary/test engine. It is not meant to be a full on replacement for the primary engine. And despite this, its power output at maximum level is still almost sufficient to power the station and have a minor amount of headway. Unless you add major sources of extra drain, like shields. However, considering the first sentence, this is good enough.
• With the previous point in mind, it should be fine to expect that the engine take more maintenance. Since its employment is completely optional and unnecessary.

[Snakebittenn]

I don't like it because it means that the Tesla, which some engineers favor over the SM, will go from 'sparingly used' to 'never used', and I guarantee 9/10 CE's will just ban it outright.

[Arrow768]

Voting for dismissal, as the OP has not explained what the goal of the suggestion is.

[Snakebittenn]

ok let me reconfigure my argument
With the current PR in place, rod count and engine setup does not change what size of tesla you can set up. No matter how many grounding rods you put in place, no matter how good of a setup you have, eventually a tesla with 10 balls will chew through any amount of rods, and any given engine setup.

[PoZe]

Opened PR to address our discord discussion. Currently it was concluded with @Skull132 that each grounding rod will determine how many max balls can Tesla have before melting stuff around. My Pr makes it 1 rod = 4 miniballs. With standard setup we have 4 rods = 16 miniballs = 4 million W of power produced. Anything above the max amount of contained balls will make Tesla balls to charge main balls and melt one of the nearby coils/rods/emitters in priority order of coils first, then rods then emitter. Each time it melts any of these it will drop in energy and loose one of the balls.

 

Since PR is open, moving this thread to Projects.

 

PR link https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5994

 

Quote

All 17 balls energize for a second, sending their energy to the main ball, which redirects it at the nearest object!
The tesla coil melts down until ashes are left!

... 8 more melted rods later...
All 17 balls energize for a second, sending their energy to the main ball, which redirects it at the nearest object!
Grounding Rod melts down until ashes are left!

... 3 grounding rods later ...
All 15 balls energize for a second, sending their energy to the main ball, which redirects it at the nearest object!
The emitter melts down until ashes are left!

 

EDITED: @Arrow768 I have edited thread name removing your dismissal as Skull, Paradox and me came to the middle ground of the solution I present above.

Edited January 28, 2019 by PoZe

[Neinbox]

Heya, Tesla user here.

 

So at first I was pretty concerned with the state of the Tesla. It's a favorite, but rarely if ever gets used. To me, both engines are experimental and both are equally dangerous in their own rights. Now, like Paradox stated, the Tesla is from what I recall, rarely if ever used and for a long time was already ICly "banned" from use by CE's and Captains alike. It has recently made a comeback, but now it's being nerfed which is disappointing. From what I recall, both are also equally dangerous and experimental engines in their own rights.

While I don't disagree that the Tesla could use something to give it that element of danger so that people should have to monitor it instead of just leaving it there, this is unfair in it's current state. If it were a more popular engine and allowed to be used as a main powersource, sure. Have people monitor it. But so far it's barely ever touched and you're making a rare choice needlessly dangerous. If the Tesla grows a little too large, people will have to make sure that cargo is there and then harass them for parts, then wait for those parts to be delivered and make sure that there's enough to replace what was destroyed on top of waiting for the main ball to decay to more tolerable levels. Not to mention getting close enough to install the new equipment is enough to make anyone's buttcheeks clench.

I'm an experienced Tesla user. I love using it when I have the time to set it up and I love messing with the design and experimenting of what makes it a robust power source. And quite frankly, the new changes make me very, very wary of ever touching it again. How in the world is someone going to get close enough to push in a new coil without getting hit by an arc from just touching it, let alone wrenching it down? The new PR is better than what was first discussed, but my previous statement is still a concern.

IIRC, the SM is also a dangerous experimental engine. Will that also get nerfed? It's a little overpowered too; using pure phoron means zero decay in it's heat capacity. You can just turn it on and walk away.

 

[PoZe]

On 30/01/2019 at 02:46, Neinbox said:

While I don't disagree that the Tesla could use something to give it that element of danger so that people should have to monitor it instead of just leaving it there, this is unfair in it's current state. If it were a more popular engine and allowed to be used as a main powersource, sure. Have people monitor it. But so far it's barely ever touched and you're making a rare choice needlessly dangerous. If the Tesla grows a little too large, people will have to make sure that cargo is there and then harass them for parts, then wait for those parts to be delivered and make sure that there's enough to replace what was destroyed on top of waiting for the main ball to decay to more tolerable levels. Not to mention getting close enough to install the new equipment is enough to make anyone's buttcheeks clench.

I'm an experienced Tesla user. I love using it when I have the time to set it up and I love messing with the design and experimenting of what makes it a robust power source. And quite frankly, the new changes make me very, very wary of ever touching it again. How in the world is someone going to get close enough to push in a new coil without getting hit by an arc from just touching it, let alone wrenching it down? The new PR is better than what was first discussed, but my previous statement is still a concern.

IIRC, the SM is also a dangerous experimental engine. Will that also get nerfed? It's a little overpowered too; using pure phoron means zero decay in it's heat capacity. You can just turn it on and walk away.

 

SM will not get any nerf in the scole of this PR or thread. Speaking about dangerous - this just sets a limit to the Tesla, otherwise people would just be able to leave PA on max level and go their ways, making Tesla balls grow indefinitely which I guarantee will eventually lag server and might even cause server-wide freeze/lag.

This PR will set a limit to balls that will depend on your setup, 1 grounding rod can handle 4 miniballs. And it will also make sure people don't leave PA on level 2, plus it actually add the only other way for Tesla to escape(which works literally same as singulo because like skull said these are singulo type engines).

I do not think it is a nerf as now that miniballs were fixed, the max amount of power generated by Tesla with standard setup can be up to 4 million W, but you would have to monitor it.

[Scheveningen]

Strange, I had something typed up to respond to this thread but it had nothing to do with the tesla. Odd.

Can you essentially just surround the entire containment with grounding rods, and you can have as many miniballs as you want, or is that not how it works?

In all honesty, this probably needs comprehensive user-based testing after it goes through.

[Huenererschrecker]

I've set the Tesla up in it's current state a few times now and I still don't see any kind of nerf. It is strong enough to power the station alone and requires no real checkup if you do a standard setup. Balls are also decaying rather fast to the point where you can keep the emitter set to 1 at all times with no problems (except if RNG puts the ball constantly in the line of fire, then there might be a little risk) and get up to around 2-3 miniballs. 

Screaming that the Tesla is now ruined, dangerous and broken are simply not true. With those fixed balls, the rough output for the Tesla has become higher with little to no extra danger at all. Said risk only happens if you pump the ball full of lvl 2 emitter shots which, speaking frankly, you don't even need to do to power the station.

[Neinbox]

On 01/02/2019 at 09:20, Huenererschrecker said:

I've set the Tesla up in it's current state a few times now and I still don't see any kind of nerf. It is strong enough to power the station alone and requires no real checkup if you do a standard setup. Balls are also decaying rather fast to the point where you can keep the emitter set to 1 at all times with no problems (except if RNG puts the ball constantly in the line of fire, then there might be a little risk) and get up to around 2-3 miniballs. 

Screaming that the Tesla is now ruined, dangerous and broken are simply not true. With those fixed balls, the rough output for the Tesla has become higher with little to no extra danger at all. Said risk only happens if you pump the ball full of lvl 2 emitter shots which, speaking frankly, you don't even need to do to power the station.

Unfortunately, I have a specific setup that I use instead of the default which is a one-by-one tile setup, keeping the Tesla core contained in one tile with the containment generators in a close three-by-three configuration around it. The image below was the first non-standard configuration I've used and it's rather messy and I've since improved, but basically it helped to increase power output and make the engine safer to walk around as the ball no longer wanders and you won't have to worry about being surprised and zapped from what you thought was a safe distance. It's kept contained all the while giving a strong output and just overall makes it safer to observe.

 

I'll have to play around with it more, but with what you're telling me is that this setup will now become dangerous because it is kept contained and directly in the line of fire the entire time.

 

 

On other servers, danger is provided by making either the containment field generators, tesla coils, or grounding rods explode if not properly secured which will either chop power generation or create a Tesloose- but otherwise there are no other dangers and can be safely kept at 3 indefinitely- which is a little ridiculous and spooked me the first time, but power production was again, low, and I had difficulty with upkeep. It was used as a main engine in alternating rounds and I could not rely on the SM because it simply wasn't there, so I either had to create another engine or completely wire up solars and set up extras to help sustain the station, as a reference to what other servers do for ideas to whoever else is viewing this thread.

[Neinbox]

On 01/02/2019 at 00:26, PoZe said:

SM will not get any nerf in the scole of this PR or thread. Speaking about dangerous - this just sets a limit to the Tesla, otherwise people would just be able to leave PA on max level and go their ways, making Tesla balls grow indefinitely which I guarantee will eventually lag server and might even cause server-wide freeze/lag.

This PR will set a limit to balls that will depend on your setup, 1 grounding rod can handle 4 miniballs. And it will also make sure people don't leave PA on level 2, plus it actually add the only other way for Tesla to escape(which works literally same as singulo because like skull said these are singulo type engines).

I do not think it is a nerf as now that miniballs were fixed, the max amount of power generated by Tesla with standard setup can be up to 4 million W, but you would have to monitor it.

 

Another thing, other servers set a maximum generation of mini-balls capped at... 20? Basically, it mechanically cannot generate any more instead of forcing players to be careful of how many they generate- unless that's what this PR does, as I could have missed this. Also read my last comments on the post I made above for any other ideas if you want them. Not sure if they already exist or not.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Neinbox

[PoZe]

10 hours ago, Neinbox said:

 

Another thing, other servers set a maximum generation of mini-balls capped at... 20? Basically, it mechanically cannot generate any more instead of forcing players to be careful of how many they generate- unless that's what this PR does, as I could have missed this. Also read my last comments on the post I made above for any other ideas if you want them. Not sure if they already exist or not.

I have discussed with other devs a lot in the chat about how we should go about it, the soft cap of say 20 balls was proposed. But we eventually decided that having grounding rods dictate how many miniballs can be kept safely is better. Because our machinery doesn't explode, so tesla-loose would not be possible otherwise. Also in your picture I notice problem of setup - you are missing grounding rods on the other side. I recommend having grounding rods from each side - EAST, WEST, SOUTH, NORTH of balls. Because in code Tesla only can see 7 tiles(standard mob view) in each direction. My PR increases view range to 14 to be able to count number of rods in setup, but still.

About power generation I am currently talking with devs about how to make it consistently generate power. Because current the way our rods/balls implemented miniballs most of the time don't end up shooting coils as they have 1 second shock cooldown. So even if small setup you will be able to use Tesla and main power source with this PR

[Neinbox]

On 04/02/2019 at 17:52, PoZe said:

I have discussed with other devs a lot in the chat about how we should go about it, the soft cap of say 20 balls was proposed. But we eventually decided that having grounding rods dictate how many miniballs can be kept safely is better. Because our machinery doesn't explode, so tesla-loose would not be possible otherwise. Also in your picture I notice problem of setup - you are missing grounding rods on the other side. I recommend having grounding rods from each side - EAST, WEST, SOUTH, NORTH of balls. Because in code Tesla only can see 7 tiles(standard mob view) in each direction. My PR increases view range to 14 to be able to count number of rods in setup, but still.

About power generation I am currently talking with devs about how to make it consistently generate power. Because current the way our rods/balls implemented miniballs most of the time don't end up shooting coils as they have 1 second shock cooldown. So even if small setup you will be able to use Tesla and main power source with this PR

Oh, neat. And keep in mind, that image is  a n c i e n t - like just learning how the Tesla works- and I've since developed a better layout. I've used to keep two grounding rods in the airlocks as portable shields since ours don't explode- as long as you're careful to not place it behind you so you're between it and the Tesla. I'll have to play around a little more to figure out the boundaries and such now, but thank you for allowing it to preform as a main engine as I really love variety and experimentation.

[PoZe]

I am looking into problem of Tesla dying because it stays outside of PA range, currently I have decided to reduce standard field size to 7x7, leaving Tesla less corners. Remember that Tesla is of size 3x3 but it can overlay with field without leaving it. Another changes I have decided to make are:
 

•  Tesla miniballs no longer shoot beams, instead they shoot main ball which shoot coils, accounting for energy produced by all miniballs. I am gonna make each miniball give 100k-120K power. Reason for this change is to reduce lag, miniballs shocking random objects/people and posibility of them breaking server timer which will break almost most of things for a long time.
•  Tesla now moves smoothly tile-by-tile. No more jumps

[PoZe]

Ignore 4.32 million W, that will be reduced

[PoZe]

• Tesla miniballs no longer shoot beams, instead they shoot main ball which shoot coils, accounting for energy produced by all miniballs.
•  Tesla now moves smoothly tile-by-tile. No more _jumps_
• * Each miniball produces 156250W

Edited February 18, 2019 by PoZe

[PoZe]

PR merged, moving to completed projects.