Offworlders Announcement/Feedback thread

[LordFowl]

If you read what I wrote instead of just looking at it you’d know I never asked why so many now (as in all of the sudden), but why so many at all.

I find it amusing that we consider xeno spacers bloat but not human spacers. My comments regarding mechanics is not a desire for more but an intuition that there is not enough to represent and justify.

Edited February 20, 2019 by LordFowl

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Adding xeno spacers on the premise of "if they get it, so do we" is not a compelling argument. Xenos already have mechanical distinctions and subdistinctions.

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

Why not make this into a *disability* for humanoid races instead?

Edited February 20, 2019 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[Coalf]

Strange, I quite remember you said " Then why are more spacers being born now that there is artificial gravity? ", not, "Why so many at ALL".
To answer that question, because we have gone over 300 years without artificial gravity and our universe has a disproportionate amount of humans since forever.

Spacers were already present in the code for a good year, something already inside the server can't be bloat. We have recycled something we have been provided and actually fleshed it out if anything this is saving space not bloating.

I don't believe there is an established "Norm" for "Required mechanics" to add sub-species, as some sub-species are just separated by being slightly faster, tougher or just by being able to walk without a plasma tank.
Thus I don't believe that stance is justified.

 

[Coalf]

8 minutes ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Why not make this into a *disability* for humanoid races instead?

All of the described mechanical differences would not fit under the disability menu and the main goal was to provide some variety to humans and recycle the spacer bodies already present.

Correction: I was told it might be possible by a developer, so I retract my first above statement but the second still applies.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Coalf

[LordFowl]

55 minutes ago, Coalf said:

Strange, I quite remember you said " Then why are more spacers being born now that there is artificial gravity? ", not, "Why so many at ALL".
To answer that question, because we have gone over 300 years without artificial gravity and our universe has a disproportionate amount of humans since forever.

Spacers were already present in the code for a good year, something already inside the server can't be bloat. We have recycled something we have been provided and actually fleshed it out if anything this is saving space not bloating.

I don't believe there is an established "Norm" for "Required mechanics" to add sub-species, as some sub-species are just separated by being slightly faster, tougher or just by being able to walk without a plasma tank.
Thus I don't believe that stance is justified.

 

A feature of your reading miscomprehension - simply because the sentence contains the same words does not mean it contains the same meaning. English 101, folks (Although even this does not excuse the misinterpretation because my exact question was why are there so many being born now, but I'm sure you just glossed over that minor context). In this case you misinterpreted my question as "why do they exist on station all of the sudden", which presupposes that this is both canonically a new addition as well as mechanically, when in truth I've made it quite clear that I don't care about that - in fact a precept of my argument is that spacers have always existed, just not been mechanically represented.

Your answer however does not connect with the justification Jackboot gave - it doesn't matter how long there have been spacers because space-adaption is not an inherited trait, as Jackboot has said - it is the result of being born and raised without gravity. So those past 300 years without artificial gravity matter exactly zilch, all we care about is these current 50 years with it.

You are incorrect if you assume "bloat" refers explicitly to what exists in the codebase. While that is true, the loredevs are not responsible for what exists in the codebase but is not available in game. This change is bloating what is available in game, not what exists in the codebase. Codebase bloat is still a problem, but it's mostly just a maintenance issue. Gameplay bloat is something more complex, and can't be justified as "Well, it already existed in code but just wasn't available, so we good now."

Edited February 20, 2019 by LordFowl

[Coalf]

28 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

A feature of your reading miscomprehension - simply because the sentence contains the same words does not mean it contains the same meaning. English 101, folks (Although even this does not excuse the misinterpretation because my exact question was why are there so many being born now, but I'm sure you just glossed over that minor context). In this case you misinterpreted my question as "why do they exist on station all of the sudden", which presupposes that this is both canonically a new addition as well as mechanically, when in truth I've made it quite clear that I don't care about that - in fact a precept of my argument is that spacers have always existed, just not been mechanically represented.

Your answer however does not connect with the justification Jackboot gave - it doesn't matter how long there have been spacers because space-adaption is not an inherited trait, as Jackboot has said - it is the result of being born and raised without gravity. So those past 300 years without artificial gravity matter exactly zilch, all we care about is these current 50 years with it.

You are incorrect if you assume "bloat" refers explicitly to what exists in the codebase. While that is true, the loredevs are not responsible for what exists in the codebase but is not available in game. This change is bloating what is available in game, not what exists in the codebase. Codebase bloat is still a problem, but it's mostly just a maintenance issue. Gameplay bloat is something more complex, and can't be justified as "Well, it already existed in code but just wasn't available, so we good now."

I appreciate taking the half hour to find a dictionary, but now I see where I made an assumption we didn't connect on.

There were many spacers, they lived in places with low-gravity for a very long time.
These spacers live there, big communities very connected.
Artificial gravity is invented, but putting them on these stations is a health risk to these people.
So they have these exoskeletons, the thing is reverting this strange adaptation would perhaps never be possible and they would be stuck in these skeletons for the rest of their life.
Thus giving birth in normal gravity or even c-section would be extremely hard to accomplish for the woman. As we know, people refuse to move states for much smaller things.
So logically, these spacers keep raising their kids on the stations, because that was the best way for those kids to stay connected to their parents and for their parents to live comfortably.
They lived there whole centuries so the assumptions that all the ships are shitholes would most likely be incorrect. This is also why it mentions that people are having a surge of migrating for a job.
Sure, some would perhaps start leaving or sending their kids away, but the relative amount of spacers would remain the same.


No new gameplay is being introduced. They're getting a RIG, we have those. The stat increases/decreases are not very skill intensive. I really do not see your point on this repeated "Bloat".

EDIT: Removed the last part, it was unnecessary.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Coalf

[LordFowl]

8 minutes ago, Coalf said:

I appreciate taking the half hour to find a dictionary, but now I see where I made an assumption we didn't connect on.

There were many spacers, they lived in places with low-gravity for a very long time.
These spacers live there, big communities very connected.
Artificial gravity is invented, but putting them on these stations is a health risk to these people.
So they have these exoskeletons, the thing is reverting this strange adaptation would perhaps never be possible and they would be stuck in these skeletons for the rest of their life.
Thus giving birth in normal gravity or even c-section would be extremely hard to accomplish for the woman. As we know, people refuse to move states for much smaller things.
So logically, these spacers keep raising their kids on the stations, because that was the best way for those kids to stay connected to their parents and for their parents to live comfortably.
They lived there whole centuries so the assumptions that all the ships are shitholes would most likely be incorrect. This is also why it mentions that people are having a surge of migrating for a job.
Sure, some would perhaps start leaving or sending their kids away, but the relative amount of spacers would remain the same.


No new gameplay is being introduced. They're getting a RIG, we have those. The stat increases/decreases are not very skill intensive. I really do not see your point on this repeated "Bloat" and some PR's would need reviews if "Gameplay bloat" is suddenly an issue.

 

I appreciate taking the 22 minutes and 33 seconds to find the thesaurus, but now I see you're a bit of an asshole.

I'm glad it took you three replies to reach the conclusion I already drew in my original post, so you can go back and read what my thoughts on this alternative are (Protip! Start at "If it is because artificial gravity is so uncommon as to allow a significant population of spacers to be available to the Aurora..." and read onwards! You'll find it eventually bud!)

And new gameplay is being introduced - its an entire new species, in fact. Species are one of the most visible aspect of gameplay, and are very sensitive to bloat. I agree that some PRs need to be more bloat proactive. If only our staff were not so bloat-prone.

[Itanimulli]

I don't see all the outrage against this. It seems neat, and extremely lore-friendly. Even within *one year* in space, bones become weaker and bodies change. This is 300 years of that.

It's hilarious to see people claim bloat when the only new thing is the rig itself; the 'always suited' aspect is in itself a fun aspect to begin with.

Ironic how if a new faction isn't for some reason completely against what the original faction stands for, they got no support.

[LordFowl]

*the rig itself and an entire fucking species

No spacer has been alive for 300 years. Space adaptation is not inherited. Artificial gravity is becoming more and more common. I wouldn't exactly call it lore friendly, although some not unreasonable changes have been made to account for questions that previously were not simply answered.

Bold of you to presume that any of us who don't like this supported the Aut'akh either.

[kyres1]

Big unaddressed issue here : why would everyone have access to artificial gravity in the short span of just 50 years? There are over a hundred billion Humans widespread. Surely not all of them could afford artificial gravity in this time. On top of that, why would they immediately migrate to using it if they're already adapted to zero-gravity living with no way of turning back?

[LordFowl]

You can join Coalf in reading my post where I asked and answered that same question.

[Itanimulli]

1 minute ago, LordFowl said:

*the rig itself and an entire fucking species

No spacer has been alive for 300 years. Space adaptation is not inherited. Artificial gravity is becoming more and more common. I wouldn't exactly call it lore friendly, although some not unreasonable changes have been made to account for questions that previously were not simply answered.

Bold of you to presume that any of us who don't like this supported the Aut'akh either.

The species already exists in the code. That was the point of that statement and the statements of many others before me. Don't cuss at me bruv, I'm not your bitch-mate.

If we're going by this new lore, spacers have been alive for 300 years indeed, adaptation would not need to be inherited; you'd just grow up with it. Reminder that aggressive adaptation, however, is possible, and passable into a species.

I'm not falling into you're overly petty ad-hominem schemes. All of the sense is there, you just need to make it a tad more common.
 

 

1 minute ago, kyres1 said:

Big unaddressed issue here : why would everyone have access to artificial gravity in the short span of just 50 years? There are over a hundred billion Humans widespread. Surely not all of them could afford artificial gravity in this time. On top of that, why would they immediately migrate to using it if they're already adapted to zero-gravity living with no way of turning back?

I'd more or less say that they'd like the ability to *exist* within gravity, not necessarily make full use of it. This is my own attempt to make sense of what's been given here; specially made devices to allow them to work in environments others already freely exist in. 

[Coalf]

20 minutes ago, LordFowl said:

I appreciate taking the 22 minutes and 33 seconds to find the thesaurus, but now I see you're a bit of an asshole.

I'm glad it took you three replies to reach the conclusion I already drew in my original post, so you can go back and read what my thoughts on this alternative are (Protip! Start at "If it is because artificial gravity is so uncommon as to allow a significant population of spacers to be available to the Aurora..." and read onwards! You'll find it eventually bud!)

And new gameplay is being introduced - its an entire new species, in fact. Species are one of the most visible aspect of gameplay, and are very sensitive to bloat. I agree that some PRs need to be more bloat proactive. If only our staff were not so bloat-prone.

I agreed I made an unfair assumption and I do apologize for upsetting you with that comment, It was perhaps too far.

But my explanation has nothing to do with it being common or uncommon but how hard it would be to re-integrate spacers into daily living conditions over the 50 something years.

Before we start another pointless fight, define "gameplay bloat" so I don't make more assumptions.

Addendum: This is why we made a feedback thread, we're going to take the points you have raised about lore so far and their presence and work on it more.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Coalf

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

What are the costs of rigs compared to bodily prothesics? Will RIGs be RND/cargo aquirable?

Are there off-worlders who use prothesics to ignore major part of gravity distoration?

If they are cloned, will they come out as their old shitty long boy self, or are there ways to grow a normal body for them?

What's human reaction on "our ancestors fucked up half o' human race into hoes", and how expansistic moods were changed by it? What alien races think about our major fuckup?

Are there any changes to military provess of humanity, now that majority of them are so weak their bones break when they walk without help?

Are they comfortable on ships without gravity?

Edited February 20, 2019 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[Coalf]

4 minutes ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

What are the costs of rigs compared to bodily prothesics? Will RIGs be RND/cargo aquirable?

Are there off-worlders who use prothesics to ignore major part of gravity distoration?

If they are cloned, will they come out as their old shitty long boy self, or are there ways to grow a normal body for them?

 

1. They spawn with the RIGs. They will probably be acquired from cargo seeing as they're meant to be widespread.
2. Yes, and this is probably going to be reflected in mechanics.
3. Them spawning as normal Humans could be done if it were a disability, as disabilities are removed upon cloning.

EDIT: I was forced to change my message at gunpoint by Kyres.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Coalf

[kyres1]

1 hour ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Why not make this into a *disability* for humanoid races instead?

This is also a fantastic idea, and one that will be considered. I could personally start writing up a rework on the initial document to lean this way.

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

Will antag RIG modules fit into gravity boys' one? 

In what way are they pressure resistant? Hard skin, low density? If first, can they be slash damage resistant?

Is their rig power-intensive? WIll they become permastunned from single EMP? Will there be superior models that actually work like real rigs (for there's a demand)?

Are their houses long, with high ceilings? Are they comfortable on most stations, or do they permacrouch?

Are there ways to fix the baby after it's borne in no-gravity? Early gravity change to normal one, surgery? Is it practised if yes?

Are offworlders being bigoted against, are there politicians/other important people with this sickness?

In what way their culture's changed? Everyone's weak + gravity is null, so police might have problems regulating people as well as people might have problems doing low level agressive criminal stuff (then there are guns, so it might lead to rise of lethality because non-lethal options don't work so well)

With their blood flowing slower, do they get less oxygen to all organs (did i get it right)? If yes, are they physically dumber because brain gets less + other organ malfunctions, or is it where they did genetically adapt/something else?

Edited February 20, 2019 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[kyres1]

Just now, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Will antag RIG modules fit into gravity boys? 

In what way are they pressure resistant? Hard skin, low density? If first, can they be slash damage resistant?

Is their rig power-intensive? WIll they become permastunned from single EMP? Will there be superior models that actually work like real rigs (for there's a demand) ?

Are their houses long, with high cellings? Are they comfortable on most stations, or do they permacrouch?

1. No, otherwise there'd be an excess of people running around with laser cannons in their ESS.

2. Not sure but I'd say no to slash resistance because they're still supposed to be a downgrade of sorts, mechanically at least.

3. No. RIGs don't take much power if at all, and EMPs hardly do anything to them. However, they DO destroy modules, and removing that feature for the ESS is unnecessary.

4. It's up to you how comfortable your character is in the ESS while in normal gravity. Mechanically, they are totally incapacitated by it when the ESS is removed. In reality they'd probably just be reduced to a crawl without it, and they'd most likely not be the most cozy in an ESS. Loadout options will generally be centralized around comfort items and whatnot to support the idea that they'd find discomfort in the station's environment.

[kyres1]

Another update : it being a disability is most likely off the table for the time being due to code concerns in implementation.

 

35 minutes ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

What's human reaction on "our ancestors fucked up half o' human race into hoes", and how expansistic moods were changed by it? What alien races think about our major fuckup?

I doubt it'd be considered a fuck up by most, probably just a fact of life that they exist.

35 minutes ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Are there any changes to military provess of humanity, now that majority of them are so weak their bones break when they walk without help?

Seeing as it's the future and much of each faction's fighting force is mechanized, I doubt anything has/will change with these coming into the spotlight.

37 minutes ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Are they comfortable on ships without gravity?

Up to you! It's your character. They can be comfortable in zero-G, low-gravity, or both, or not comfortable in anything at all.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Diona Gestalt (654) said:

Why not make this into a *disability* for humanoid races instead?

Why? "Why not" is not convincing.

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

13 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Why? "Why not" is not convincing.

Because it is a disabiity and not a race? Thought, coders say it's not possible right now, so it's off the charts anyway. Might open a window to fixing it ingame (clone out of it), or for multi-racial Offworlder sickness.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[Skull132]

My points about "bloat". First, are we discussing bloat lore wise or code wise?

Code wise, this is absolutely not bloat. Its depth-to-purpose ratio is about correct. And any piece of lore that you can enforce mechanically within reasonable bounds, you should. They're also not unreasonably implemented. Also, there is no difference between implementing these as a species versus disability versus any third option you want to have. Code wise it would just make it worse, and mechanically it would make no difference. The difference comes in when we look at the lore, so....

Lore wise. Ayy, probably bloat. Why are they being added as another human faction? (The scarabs.) On top of the already existent set of human factions, which count way more than any other species in our lore. Can they perhaps be implemented to represent or build upon an already existent major faction? To the point of near ubiquity. That way, you could have a clear defining trait for that faction, and something which can be leveraged in game play far better than random pieces of clothing or just names that we have now.

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

Is spread of Offworlder-style colonies controlled or no? Aka, do new settlements need to use gravity generators, for otherwise you are spreading majorly sick people?

Edited February 20, 2019 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[Zundy]

They should be attached to current factions. Solarians can live in low g space stations. Elyrans can. Dominians can. Don't seperate em out imo.