Remove the AM Rifle

[BurgerBB]

7 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

So, i actually find myself agreeing with points made on both sides of this debate. This debate really is about how much game mechanics can affect bad behavior and i would like to give my perspective as head administrator. The thing we need to keep in mind here is that the vast and overwhelming majority of action taken by staff is going to be REACTIVE. If a team of heisters bust in and gank half the crew all we can really do is punish people so that the situation does not happen again. At best we might able to toss out a few rejuvs if the situation is literal grief but often times the damage is already done and the round will continue. 

With this reality in mind it is a very fair argument to make that particularly powerful mechanics or items that are too easily available too often contribute to bad outcomes. The availability of stuns for security used to be like this. Batons where once a one click stun and tasers where a 2 hit stun. I do not think comparing the AMI to TTV is fair. The expectation on the use of a TTV is generally a lot greater i think. They destroy an entire area where the AMI just kills one person. It is the often the case potential bombers ahelp and ask first too. I doubt someone does this before they fire an AMI.

It is entirely possible and valid to argue that certain things are too powerful while being too easily available and too often contribute to negative outcomes. I am not entirely certain if the AMI falls under this considering evidence submitted in this thread seems to suggest that it will not penetrate far and it also will not "one shot kill". Though you could definitely argue 80 brute to the head is going to put you out of commission for quite a while. 

In some cases surgery can take longer than cloning, so keeping someone alive can actually put someone out of the game longer than if they just shot them and broke all their organs and bones in their torso.

It's used as a ganking tool because of the range it has and it's massive burst damage. I would have very little issue if there was a medium-range machinegun that did 80 damage in the amount of time it took to aim, shoot, fire, and reload the AMI rifle because at least with the first bullet you could react. I mean the stunbaton used to stun instantly, but now it's an over time effect like it should be.

The .357 had this same effect where the strat was to shoot people's feet. Everyone and their dog know this strat to the point where it's become a certified Aurora meme that in order to kill someone faster, you aim for the feet instead of the head. This, however, was patched out with my contributions to how limb damage works and I believe Alb's additions of protective armguards and leg guards.

The AMI rifle is still a problem, however. People like to claim that it's rare, but with the amount of merc rounds that have occured recently because of highpop, it's all too common for the merc team to combine their TC and get the AMI rifle plus lots of extra ammo. My short-sighted vault addition also made this worse, and I setup a removal thread for it as well.

[Evandorf]

5 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

In some cases surgery can take longer than cloning, so keeping someone alive can actually put someone out of the game longer than if they just shot them and broke all their organs and bones in their torso.

It's used as a ganking tool because of the range it has and it's massive burst damage. I would have very little issue if there was a medium-range machinegun that did 80 damage in the amount of time it took to aim, shoot, fire, and reload the AMI rifle because at least with the first bullet you could react. I mean the stunbaton used to stun instantly, but now it's an over time effect like it should be.

The .357 had this same effect where the strat was to shoot people's feet. Everyone and their dog know this strat to the point where it's become a certified Aurora meme that in order to kill someone faster, you aim for the feet instead of the head. This, however, was patched out with my contributions to how limb damage works and I believe Alb's additions of protective armguards and leg guards.

The AMI rifle is still a problem, however. People like to claim that it's rare, but with the amount of merc rounds that have occured recently because of highpop, it's all too common for the merc team to combine their TC and get the AMI rifle plus lots of extra ammo. My short-sighted vault addition also made this worse, and I setup a removal thread for it as well.

I'd argue that shifting from the AMR to a more close range, high damaging weapon is taking a step backwards towards the .357. I also think that we need to clarify the definition of gank. In a firefight where rounds have been exchanged, or even a standoff where both sides are geard up you already have escalation. You're simply waiting for the spark to ignite. Gank is attacking someone who has no indication that anything dangerous or harmful is about to happen where no RP has been given beforehand.

[BurgerBB]

2 minutes ago, Evandorf said:

I'd argue that shifting from the AMR to a more close range, high damaging weapon is taking a step backwards towards the .357. I also think that we need to clarify the definition of gank. In a firefight where rounds have been exchanged, or even a standoff where both sides are geard up you already have escalation. You're simply waiting for the spark to ignite. Gank is attacking someone who has no indication that anything dangerous or harmful is about to happen where no RP has been given beforehand.

Just to be clear I'm moderately fine with the .357. If you want a weapon that causes fear in people's eyes, then I suggest removing the AMR and replacing it with some sort of highly visible shotgun or melee weapon that fucks your day up.

Gank is a subjective term as the amount of RP required for it to not be considered a gank varies from person to person. In most cases the following happens:

- Raiders flash weapons

- Security escalates

- Firefight ensures

- Someone who wasn't involved in any of the above gets shot and put into crit/killed.

This happens all the time, happens a lot with the AMR where non-armed people get shot frequently and it's annoying to deal with.

 

[Evandorf]

14 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Gank is a subjective term as the amount of RP required for it to not be considered a gank varies from person to person. In most cases the following happens:

- Raiders flash weapons

- Security escalates

- Firefight ensures

- Someone who wasn't involved in any of the above gets shot and put into crit/killed.

In your example, the person who was not involved and was killed by the crossfire would not be considered gank. If security escalates without first clearing civilians then security would not be doing their job properly.

14 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

This happens all the time, happens a lot with the AMR where non-armed people get shot frequently and it's annoying to deal with.

 

To go back to my previous post in this thread I understand that you think it happens a lot but, without specific examples or more people giving their feedback, simply stating this as fact undermines the ability of the thread to remain factual.

EDITED for clarification.

[sonicgotnuked]

Alright, I'm going to point some stuff out. 

In short, I do not support the removal of the AM rifle for previous points above. This was a one time round occurrence where a mercenary was shooting security and other nerds with an expensive sniper. In fact, it also serves as a great counter against highly dangerous mechs such as durands and gygaxes that I know for certain every robotisist loves to build.

 

In fact, it only carries 2 shots, if I'm not mistaken, you have to ready the bullet, it's HIGHLY expensive and you are required to chip in extra TCs or break into the vault if you want any chance to get more ammo.

 

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Practically silent at long ranges.

I don't think suddenly blood and gore exploding from your chest is 'silent' and it is pretty obvious when it comes into play.

 

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• 90% of the reason why merc is cancer.

How often do you see it? I actually don't see it as often as you over exaggerate its frequency of use. 

 

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If you think science weapons are OP, then advocate for a nerf. Currently I'm going after the biggest fish right now and that's AMRs.

Clearly your understanding of the 'biggest' fish is skewed. I see science and its guns a lot more frequently then the AMR. Don't take this as me wanting to nerf science. The AMR actually provides a good counter against the big guns I know you and other robotisists love to hand to security. I actually see sec getting a fully loaded durand more then the AMR. 

 

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• Instant-kill on headshot

I mean, yesterday during that merc round, I didn't instantly die and I got shot like three times. I had enough time to scream "S-N-N-I-P-E-R" in comms. 

 

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The AMR is never used for HRP. Never. I have yet to seen it be used for HRP and I don't think there will ever be a situation ever where it's used to further HRP that isn't "GUYS STAY IN YOUR DEPARTMENTS AND AVOID THE HALLS, THERE'S A DUDE WITH A SNIPER WHO'S SHOOTING INDISCRIMINATELY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SMALL PENIS."

Just because it has the potential to gank doesn't mean it should be removed. If you feel like someone is shooting down the hall with an AMR indiscriminately at people for no reason, then ahelp. There are multiple weapons with the ability to gank if used correctly.

 

I will agree on one thing though, remove the hitscan. Personally, hit scan should be removed regardless on all guns, but that isn't the topic of this discussion.

 

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The AMI's existence causes bad behavior.

Antags in general causes bad behavior Burger. I will repeat once again, this is why we have staff.

 

In general, if you want to nerf one 'potential to gank weapon' then you need to look at the entire list that is potentially in every weapon.

 

Edit: Fuck, tons of people wrote while I was typing this. I'm just going to point out again that Burger is over exaggerating its frequency. I've only seen it, and really died to it, on the merc round from yesterday. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by sonicgotnuked
fuck

[Itanimulli]

Abusing fact for a narrative is beginning to get old. The AMR is barely used, and when it is, it's a major player. And It rightly should be, because all your TC goes right on down the drain. It gets really old, really fast, when you buy a big-ticket item and it gets nerfed because one person decides to raise a fuss about it.


You want a zero rp weapon removed? Go advocate for viscerators getting a removal/rework before this. I don't think we've had a single instance of ganking from this weapon, either.

[BurgerBB]

Personal attacks is a fast track to me ignoring you. Just because I point out problems and/or fix them frequently doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to the content I'm saying. From my perspective it just means you run out of things to say or aren't here with good intentions. It's a very good reason for me to ignore you. If you have a problem with how often I complain about features, make a complaint thread so it can be discussed there instead of a "gotcha" to every criticism I make.

Also just because something is used in 1% of rounds, and 99% of the time when it's used is shit, doesn't mean that we should go "Oh it's only a problem 1% of the time therefore criticisms are invalid." If I coded in a super powerful weapon in the armory that only appears 1% of the time. Issues are issues if they can occur, regardless of how frequent it occurs.

Now, there is a sound glitch with the AMR where it sometimes doesn't play sounds if you're far enough. It's the reason why explosions are sometimes heard by only half the people in a room. There is also the in-game restriction of visibility being limited to a 15x15 area where in reality, you could probably see someone from the library to security. As far as I know, it could be a byond issue but I don't know. Regardless, I do not like the range of the AMR considering the limitations of the game.

If not the outright removal of the AMR, I would prefer a rework where it's more of a scopeless bolt action single-casing rifle than a long ranged weapon.

 

 

 

[Scheveningen]

time to unfollow this thread, I guess, it's given me the plague now.

[Carver]

One shots are a meme. That's all I really have to say, at least with manhacks and other memes you can run the fuck away. I also laugh at people who think parapen into murder isn't also absolutely shit-tier antag play.

+1

[BurgerBB]

On 26/03/2019 at 16:26, Carver said:

One shots are a meme. That's all I really have to say, at least with manhacks and other memes you can run the fuck away. I also laugh at people who think parapen into murder isn't also absolutely shit-tier antag play.

+1

I forgot about the parapen. Maybe I should revive my rework suggestion.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The AM rifle can still exist but it's cost should be more suitable for such a high end, late-game item. All ballistic weapons are potent. 80 brute damage to the head is incredible, and shrapnel may as well be 80 brute damage added on again due to the complexity required to remove it, the risks required to get it removed, and the progressively increased damage it causes without being removed.

[StationCrab]

Could it be balanced by making the weapon take longer to setup, and longer to undeploy it? That might make it something that requires you to dedicate time to laying down and setting up a firing position, and also make you vulnerable to flanking attempts or other counter play, because you'd be rooted to the spot. 

As of right now it seems that you can easily jump in and out of scoped mode, and move quite freely. Although I must admit I haven't used the weapon myself, just observed others doing so as AI, so if I am incorrect about the mechanics ignore me.

I also must say that the thought of using such a weapon on a space station is a bit crazy, wouldn't that run the risk of breaches? Then again I guess mercs and the types that field the weapon wouldn't care about that.

Edited April 4, 2019 by StationCrab