Remove the AM Rifle

[BurgerBB]

AM rifle.

Stats:

• Weapon Costs 25TC
• 7 bullets Costs 4TC
• Bullet deals 80 Damage
• Instant-kill on headshot
• Instant-kill on groinshot
• Hitscan
• Bullet is a guarantee 3 second stun
• Penetrates super excessively
• 90% of the reason why merc is cancer.
• Still in the game despite being a lowRP weapon.
• Long range
• Practically silent at long ranges.

 

Honestly. Why. Have. This Gun. In my 2 years of playing on this server, I have never seen this weapon be used for something other than murderbone mayhem. I have personally never been killed by it, however I have seen just a lot of shit plays with it from regulars and new players.

Let's stop being intentionally dumb and kidding ourselves when we say that this is a weapon to counter mechs. It's not.

[Lady Fowl]

Honestly it feels like a endgame weapon in a fallout game then a realistic weapon for combat on a space station

[Itanimulli]

I have seen literally one merc round in which the AMR was used to any effective degree, and that was last round. If anything, it's ultra HRP that mercs would bring such a useful tool onto the station. Like, come on, NT is known to have mechs.


It's no dumber than half of the weapons science puts out, neither is it any less of a thing to deal with than something likes, say, the back-mounted gattling. People want antags to have a chance against security, but try to take away the big guns?


Nah, go gimp some other antag.

-1.

[Evandorf]

I have to agree. I rarely see the gun bought let alone used effectively enough to be considered OP to the point of removal.

-1

[Alberyk]

I don't think it can insta headgib anymore after the limb gibbing changes?

Also, it was far less common when traitor telescrystals were not in the vault.

[BurgerBB]

I regret the traitor tele crystal in the vault thing solely because people use it to buy the AMR and I encourage people to revert that aspect.

"The AMR is used rarely" shouldn't be an excuse. If 100% of time when it isn't used by an idiot, it's super OP, it shouldn't exist. Things shouldn't be powerful just because of how rare they occur, or how rare it is to get someone who is capable of using it. Lawgivers were super powerful, however they were rare because science would seldom make them, but when they were made, they were silly OP.

"But science gets powerful weapons" shouldn't be an excuse either. If you think science weapons are OP, then advocate for a nerf. Currently I'm going after the biggest fish right now and that's AMRs.

[Kaed]

No.

Something being capable of instant killing a person is not grounds for removal. The fact that someone can be killed without the ability to fight back is also not grounds for its removal. We have a number of different abilities and weapons in the game that can decapitate people or force him to be unable to fight back while they are killed. I don't see a strong effective difference between parapenning someone so you can drag them off and kill them and using an AM rifle. Given the proper framework, both results in a corpse with little chance for the other person to resist. 

The ability to kill people is part of the game. You don't need to remove everything that is intensely dangerous from the game.

It's a precision murder weapon, and should be treated carefully to further the round. If you feel someone is abusing the item to just go around head shotting people for no reason, then you report them.

Keep in mind it also is blocked by reinforced walls which are a lot more common on the new station than they were in the original design of the map.

[Scheveningen]

3 hours ago, Kaed said:

Keep in mind it also is blocked by reinforced walls which are a lot more common on the new station than they were in the original design of the map.

This isn't really true. The 14.5mm bullet is potent enough to bypass at most 4 r-walls with good RNG, and at least 2 r-walls.

 

7 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

• Instant-kill on headshot
• Instant-kill on groinshot

I am going to have to concur with Burger on this, and I think it is grounds for removal from the uplink and being relegated as an admin weapon.

At the same time I do think Syndicates require a sniper rifle weapon, and just removing the AMR from the game would feel pretty bad for would-be sniper traitors/mercs. I'll try to have a PR up this week with a semi-auto sniper weapon with high enough damage to be viable but not high enough to roll over everyone. I'll see if I can add existing gear like binoculars with different zoom intensity settings.

[Evandorf]

I have to agree with Kaed on this. Similarly to the TTV, the AMR has legitimate RP uses but is also very powerful. If it's being used inappropriately then the player should be reported but the simple fact that it allowed mercs to win a firefight isn't enough reason to alter or remove it. 

[Kaed]

5 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

This isn't really true. The 14.5mm bullet is potent enough to bypass at most 4 r-walls with good RNG, and at least 2 r-walls.

This is patently untrue.  Maybe somewhere in the code I couldn't find it says it's supposed to do this, but I just tested this exact scenario in a dummy server. Extensively.

Only once was any of the target mobs hit by a bullet, and even despite that, it was not even close to instantly lethal - they took about 70 damage to their head, far from 'instant kill' damage. I am forced to conclude that you are incorrect. Further, only the first two walls were ever damaged in any scenario where I tried to fire through them.  You would have to be astronomically lucky to make more than 1-2 wall penetrations. "what if they get really lucky' is not a reason to remove a weapon.

I also want to point out that the AM rifle, for anyone not aware, holds exactly 1 bullet in it at a time. You have to reload it after every firing, a process that can take 5-10 seconds depending on your lag and hotkey use, and can only be fired effectively while wielding it in both hands AND using the scope. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Kaed

[Scheveningen]

Your test dummies were Unathi, who have 20% damage reduction from brute sources.

Non-Unathi will all be instantly killed by an AMR shot to the face or the groin. Unathi will not.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Scheveningen

[BurgerBB]

Seems like I forgot that I implemented a feature (might I add that most people on the forums didn't want it including some arguing for the AMR's existence) that prevents one hit kills via gibbing. Makes u think.

 

The issue is that when the AMR is used, it's never used for RP. Like I've stated, in my 2 years of playing on the server, I have never seen it used for RP purposes but instead a near-insta-kill meme weapon. The .357 is often used for "RP" in hostage situations and you all know how much I dislike the .357, but at least now people SOMETIMES use it for RP.

The AMR is never used for HRP. Never. I have yet to seen it be used for HRP and I don't think there will ever be a situation ever where it's used to further HRP that isn't "GUYS STAY IN YOUR DEPARTMENTS AND AVOID THE HALLS, THERE'S A DUDE WITH A SNIPER WHO'S SHOOTING INDISCRIMINATELY."

Someone explain to me a situation where the AMR can be used for HRP. Which gimmicks are used for this? What gimmicks have been used for this? What gimmicks will be used for this?

 

 

Also how come any time an antag nerf is brought up, people bring up how strong sec/science is. How about instead of shutting down every suggestion to nerf something, we also nerf what science/security has?

[Kaed]

2 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Your test dummies were Unathi, who have 20% damage reduction from brute sources.

Non-Unathi will all be instantly killed by an AMR shot. Unathi will not.

Unless they are wearing head armor.  Or a rig.  Or a number of other possible counterbalances to your issue.  Lots of things can kill unarmored targets easily.  Also, like burger said, apparently you can't one-shot headgib people due to something he did.

As for the roleplay thing, it's not the fault of the tool that no one has used it a way that doesn't involve creeping around scopeshotting people randomly.  Just as a random example, threatening to kill someone if demands are not met, then doing so via the rifle, is a good way to create a scary situation.  But the important point is actually that an object in the game should not have to justify its existence by you having seen it used in ways you like.

Maybe there are fun ways to use it that don't involve being an edgy 'small penis sniper that I haven't thought of'. I am not using it right now, it's not my job to make them up. I don't use it, because it's an intense hassle to deal with as the player wielding it and unless you are really lucky, an expensive piece of garbage that instantly puts the entire station on alert that there is a sniper. Snipers are generally more effective when you don't know they are there and they can attack from hundreds of feet away so there is no way for you to reach them.

[Scheveningen]

Just now, Kaed said:

Unless they are wearing head armor.  Or a rig.  Or a number of other possible counterbalances to your issue.  Lots of things can kill unarmored targets easily.  Also, like burger said, apparently you can't one-shot headgib people due to something he did.

AMR shots ignore armor entirely. They have 100 armor penetration. Point is moot.
 

Just now, Kaed said:

As for the roleplay thing, it's not the fault of the tool that no one has used it a way that doesn't involve creeping around scopeshotting people randomly.  Just as a random example, threatening to kill someone if demands are not met, then doing so via the rifle, is a good way to create a scary situation.  But the important point is actually that an object in the game should not have to justify its existence by you having seen it used in ways you like.

My viewpoint on the matter is that the AMR should be moved to the admin weapon category because it is not worth the TC it costs to buy it. It is a one-trick pony noob-bait weapon. It stops having the pressure it has as soon as it's fired. It is intended to kill people inside mechs, yet it is commonly used to just hit someone with a huge frontloaded amount of damage and then to be disposed of. Likewise, the fool that buys it has no more TC to do anything else with their round, even if they rob the vault, they become extremely limited in their toolkit, because the AMR is not worth carrying around short of the intended purpose of it being a "one and done" weapon. I would agree it is bad as a means of generating roleplay, conflict and tension because it serves as a greater detriment to the person who wields it than anyone on the receiving end.

Another tool exists in the game right now to counter mechs, which is ion energy-based equipment. 

I am quite deadset on removing it now and replacing it with a sniper weapon that is actually worth what it costs. I'm fairly certain would-be traitors would very much appreciate having an option that permits them to completely deny a zone for traversal entirely with a full magazine of armor penetrating rounds to punish anyone who ignores the fact a hallway is pinned down. That right there should be the feel of what a sniper rifle should be.

[BurgerBB]

There is also the issue of new players. New players tend to only sense danger when it on their screen. Even players familiar to SS13 but new to Aurora might experience this as I think other coderbases except CM uses sniper rifles.

Recently a lot of new players walk into areas where it is obvious that AMR usage is there, and usually get shot because of it. A round last night was a prime example of this. I think new players were hit with AMR bullets than any active combatant when the shuttle was called.

[Kaed]

16 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

My viewpoint on the matter is that the AMR should be moved to the admin weapon category because it is not worth the TC it costs to buy it. It is a one-trick pony noob-bait weapon. It stops having the pressure it has as soon as it's fired. It is intended to kill people inside mechs, yet it is commonly used to just hit someone with a huge frontloaded amount of damage and then to be disposed of. Likewise, the fool that buys it has no more TC to do anything else with their round, even if they rob the vault, they become extremely limited in their toolkit, because the AMR is not worth carrying around short of the intended purpose of it being a "one and done" weapon. I would agree it is bad as a means of generating roleplay, conflict and tension because it serves as a greater detriment to the person who wields it than anyone on the receiving end.

Another tool exists in the game right now to counter mechs, which is ion energy-based equipment. 

I am quite deadset on removing it now and replacing it with a sniper weapon that is actually worth what it costs. I'm fairly certain would-be traitors would very much appreciate having an option that permits them to completely deny a zone for traversal entirely with a full magazine of armor penetrating rounds to punish anyone who ignores the fact a hallway is pinned down. That right there should be the feel of what a sniper rifle should be.

This is an argument solution I can get behind more than 'wah OP remove pls'.  I would very much like a sniper rifle that is worth buying.  Lower the damage to something more like 50-60 and increase the shots.  It would be nice to also be able to scope farther than 7-15 squares.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Kaed

[Scheveningen]

Well, that is the thing. It does have one strength, but acquiring it and then using it for only a single-case result makes it unspeakably more shitty than even the sord meme weapon. Any arguments I addressed prior was flat out saying, "yes, this thing has strengths, but it's also terriblyat in other respects, and does deserve removal from the masses on that principle."

My line of thinking is that most things in the traitor uplink should be versatile in their usage, even if there's an array of specialist tools in a traitor's arsenal that suits only a minimum of cases. The AMR is not very versatile.

More or less I can understand if people get pissed when they get hit by an AMR at distance because it's a sort of "one and done" type thing. If you get hit by an 80 damage hitscan bullet, it feels horrible. It wasn't on your screen until it hit you, and when it hit you there was not much else you could've done.

The syndicate sniper I intend on implementing won't be hitscan. It will require cognizant usage of ballistic mechanics to use well enough, which will serve as a boon to people who get hit once and then decide to retreat and move perpendicular to the angle at which a sniper is firing. This will be reasonable counterplay, essentially, but 'running away to fight another day' will not necessarily be a hard counter to anyone who uses the sniper rifle.

I will also be sure to implement the caliber into the autolathes so that a tricky Syndicate can grab reserve ammunition by theft without resorting to their own TC dime for expenditures. Irreplaceable ammo for something that shouldn't really be an exotic weapon makes using those weapons feel really bad.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Scheveningen

[BurgerBB]

implement widowmaker's sniper when

[Evandorf]

1 hour ago, BurgerBB said:

The AMR is never used for HRP. Never. I have yet to seen it be used for HRP and I don't think there will ever be a situation ever where it's used to further HRP that isn't "GUYS STAY IN YOUR DEPARTMENTS AND AVOID THE HALLS, THERE'S A DUDE WITH A SNIPER WHO'S SHOOTING INDISCRIMINATELY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SMALL PENIS."

Someone explain to me a situation where the AMR can be used for HRP. Which gimmicks are used for this? What gimmicks have been used for this? What gimmicks will be used for this?

 

 

Also how come any time an antag nerf is brought up, people bring up how strong sec/science is. How about instead of shutting down every suggestion to nerf something, we also nerf what science/security has?

I've used it in RP situations. Specifically Tokash, when he was an officer and traitorable used it to interrupt a hostage situation with @Rosetango. Plenty of leadup and headway was given so as not to be gank but it was a situation where my traitor security officer thought taking a shot at a hostage taker was better than bargaining.

IMO, the main reason to not simply nerf weapons on all sides is because heavy weapons are supposed to be deterrents to people playing the hero and to give clear and present indicators that fear RP should come into play in a particular situation. If the sniper rifle can't backup the threat it presents then people will not take it seriously.

[BurgerBB]

1 minute ago, Evandorf said:

I've used it in RP situations. Specifically Tokash, when he was an officer and traitorable used it to interrupt a hostage situation with @Rosetango. Plenty of leadup and headway was given so as not to be gank but it was a situation where my traitor security officer thought taking a shot at a hostage taker was better than bargaining.

IMO, the main reason to not simply nerf weapons on all sides is because heavy weapons are supposed to be deterrents to people playing the hero and to give clear and present indicators that fear RP should come into play in a particular situation. If the sniper rifle can't backup the threat it presents then people will not take it seriously.

Then it seems like this debate has shifted from whether or not the AMI is powerful but how much game mechanics should affect bad behavior and to who.

The AMI's existence causes bad behavior. It's lack of existence will cause bad behavior. However I feel the AMI I feel ruins far more rounds than people who validhunt antags. It's easier to bust someone for valid hunting and ignoring realism than it is to bust someone for using an AMI maliciously.

My primary issue with the AMI, since I nerfed how gibbing works, is the amount of damage it deals at long range. I would be relatively fine with a high damage weapon as long as you can see it. I would be fine with a shotgun or something that did that amount of damage but had a range of 5. It's long range makes it a gank tool that's commonly used by a gank tool by regulars.

As I mentioned before, the .357 is in a fine place. A long range sniper that kills you in two hits is not.

 

 

[Evandorf]

3 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Then it seems like this debate has shifted from whether or not the AMI is powerful but how much game mechanics should affect bad behavior and to who.

The AMI's existence causes bad behavior. It's lack of existence will cause bad behavior. However I feel the AMI I feel ruins far more rounds than people who validhunt antags. It's easier to bust someone for valid hunting and ignoring realism than it is to bust someone for using an AMI maliciously.

My primary issue with the AMI, since I nerfed how gibbing works, is the amount of damage it deals at long range. I would be relatively fine with a high damage weapon as long as you can see it. I would be fine with a shotgun or something that did that amount of damage but had a range of 5. It's long range makes it a gank tool that's commonly used by a gank tool by regulars.

As I mentioned before, the .357 is in a fine place. A long range sniper that kills you in two hits is not.

 

 

What would you define as using an AMR maliciously? As long as sufficient RP and escalation is given it's use to kill someone is as valid as any other weapon.

[Kaed]

11 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

As I mentioned before, the .357 is in a fine place. A long range sniper that kills you in two hits is not.

 

The only conceivable way you're getting that second shot is if the person is alone and has no one to bail them out and they are in pain crit.  It takes AGES to reload the AM rifle.

[BurgerBB]

2 minutes ago, Kaed said:

The only conceivable way you're getting that second shot is if the person is alone and has no one to bail them out and they are in pain crit.  It takes AGES to reload the AM rifle.

False. As I mentioned in the OP, getting hit by a bullet stuns you for 3 seconds. This is more than enough time to reload the AM rifle.

Edit:

Oh I see you even mentioned this very oddly specific scenario "But they're safe if they have someone willing to get them out!" which, again, is very oddly specific and very rare. If not kills them, it means they have to go in surgery for about 10 minutes to fix their broken bones and organ damage.

Edited March 26, 2019 by BurgerBB

[Garnascus]

So, i actually find myself agreeing with points made on both sides of this debate. This debate really is about how much game mechanics can affect bad behavior and i would like to give my perspective as head administrator. The thing we need to keep in mind here is that the vast and overwhelming majority of action taken by staff is going to be REACTIVE. If a team of heisters bust in and gank half the crew all we can really do is punish people so that the situation does not happen again. At best we might able to toss out a few rejuvs if the situation is literal grief but often times the damage is already done and the round will continue. 

With this reality in mind it is a very fair argument to make that particularly powerful mechanics or items that are too easily available too often contribute to bad outcomes. The availability of stuns for security used to be like this. Batons where once a one click stun and tasers where a 2 hit stun. I do not think comparing the AMI to TTV is fair. The expectation on the use of a TTV is generally a lot greater i think. They destroy an entire area where the AMI just kills one person. It is the often the case potential bombers ahelp and ask first too. I doubt someone does this before they fire an AMI.

It is entirely possible and valid to argue that certain things are too powerful while being too easily available and too often contribute to negative outcomes. I am not entirely certain if the AMI falls under this considering evidence submitted in this thread seems to suggest that it will not penetrate far and it also will not "one shot kill". Though you could definitely argue 80 brute to the head is going to put you out of commission for quite a while. 

[Evandorf]

2 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

So, i actually find myself agreeing with points made on both sides of this debate. This debate really is about how much game mechanics can affect bad behavior and i would like to give my perspective as head administrator. The thing we need to keep in mind here is that the vast and overwhelming majority of action taken by staff is going to be REACTIVE. If a team of heisters bust in and gank half the crew all we can really do is punish people so that the situation does not happen again. At best we might able to toss out a few rejuvs if the situation is literal grief but often times the damage is already done and the round will continue. 

With this reality in mind it is a very fair argument to make that particularly powerful mechanics or items that are too easily available too often contribute to bad outcomes. The availability of stuns for security used to be like this. Batons where once a one click stun and tasers where a 2 hit stun. I do not think comparing the AMI to TTV is fair. The expectation on the use of a TTV is generally a lot greater i think. They destroy an entire area where the AMI just kills one person. It is the often the case potential bombers ahelp and ask first too. I doubt someone does this before they fire an AMI.

It is entirely possible and valid to argue that certain things are too powerful while being too easily available and too often contribute to negative outcomes. 

I can agree with this stance in principle but I rarely see AMRs come into use. Maybe that's just my perspective and all the snipers come on in my off hours. The argument for removal seems to hinge on how common AMR ganking is. I think it would be useful if people responding to the suggestion could recount their own experiences. Burger obviously feels like it ruins many rounds but if the majority of players experience no outstanding issues then I would say its prohibitive cost and low ammunition are enough to keep it in check yet allow for people who want to use it for their gimmick.