Staff complaint - Garnascus

[Leudoberct]

BYOND Key: Leudoberct
Staff BYOND Key: garnascus
Game ID: b1K-aXp1 (Not the ID of the round, but the one after: b1K-buuz)

Reason for complaint: During a round of autotraitor I was playing as the engineer, Crankshaft. During this I spotted the janitor, Thomas Bowchiew, wearing full-grade insulated gloves. I reported this to security due to it being something that only an engineer should have. It was noted by security, but no action was taken. Throughout the round I kept seeing them pop up with the gloves on, as well as with a toolbox, which my character, due to their engineering knowledge, knew was a pretty clear sign that the janitor was likely hacking into places. I pestered security again to take their gloves away but once again got a very non-commital response from them and saw no action taken. I then had a lengthy PDA argument with Bowchiew over why they should not have insulated gloves. Annoyed at security's lack of action and the PDA messages from Bowchiew, Crankshaft agreed with his fellow engineers Robert Wallis and Hsksi Azki to take away his gloves themselves. We of course had no intention to harm him- just to take his gloves. We opened up the airlock to see him inside the closet, but he promptly ran into maintenance. We followed shortly after and he pulled a revolver and opened fire on us. Azki also had a weapon on them (due to them also being a traitor), and returned fire. The incident left all of us dead. During my time among the dead, garnascus ranted at me about how I had ruined his antag round, even though we had only intended to take his gloves, and it was his choice to open fire rather than roleplay with us. (Pictures of this in the evidence section.) 

A while later my positronic brain is salvaged from my frame and I am put in a new, unbranded frame. After learning IC that Wallis and Azki didn't make it, I spent a good amount of time campaigning to the captain attempting to get the Head of Security charged with manslaughter for his failure to act upon my warnings about the janitor. During this, a new janitor comes to the station, acting much in the same way as the previous one, Bowchiew, that being in a way that seemed very LRP-ish and noob-like. This janitor then begins complaining about me not having repaired the brig after an explosion due to being in the middle of campaigning for the detainment of the HoS, and says that he will take it into his own hands if I don't. When I finish with the captain, I go to suit up to repair the brig, and find engineering EVA storage broken into. I don't report it just yet. I make my way into the brig and see a figure in an engineering voidsuit out of the corner of my eye, but they're gone before I can look properly. I notify security and say it was probably the janitor, due to their threats to "do it themselves." They confirm this over the radio and then while I was busy repairing the area, threw manhacks at me, which put me into crit. I had already deduced that the janitor was garn due to the LRP behaviour from them. I at first thought that garn had spawned themselves as an antag, but I now know this is not the case. However, they still rejoined the round with what was essentially a copy paste of their janitor character with a new name slapped on, and even had the same target, that being me. 

To cut it short, I believe garn acted in a very LRP-ish and unacceptable way for a head admin to be acting, when they should be setting an example. I honestly thought the janitor at the start was someone new to the game with the way they acted, and not a head admin. I think respawning in with essentially the same half-baked character with a different name and then going after the same people is a pretty poor thing to do.

Evidence/logs/etc:
https://i.imgur.com/nBrvznk.png
https://i.imgur.com/tK3VSmJ.png
https://i.imgur.com/kfLsoK6.png
https://i.imgur.com/CfXALRi.png

Additional remarks: I think it's not really up to standard for a head admin to be behaving in a way that would be more expected from someone new to the game or a troll. I also think their reaction to being killed in the firefight showcases a pretty bad temper that I don't think is suitable for a member of the staff team.
 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Arrow768
Added the actual roundid

[Garnascus]

I like janitors. I always play the janitor role. It is my favorite job. I was very very upset i admit when i died and i salted a bit into dead chat. I do not think your actions where appropriate but now that im over it it is honestly not a big deal. I will just go over what happened starting with you guys breaking in. Everything up until and including this point i felt was IC. I noticed from outside that you and two other engineers where outside the janitor office. I saw you with thermals hacking the door open. I do not care why you where breaking in. It is not on me to be concerned about that. All i know is that three people are breaking into my department and i have a gun on me with ammunition. If i get caught or captured thats it my round is over. So i shot at you and the engineers. The other engineer....the unathi i think also happened to be a traitor and shot me with a revolver. I died 

Queue deadchat salt and around.... thirty or so minutes of handling ahelps. One of which involved me helping shadow with an explosive implant not triggering. I BSTed in to test it on myself to make sure he wasnt doing it improperly and to get the explosion size. I then dropped a bomb on him to simulate the implant. This is why the brig vented. This also reset my respawn timer so i ahelped and asked if i could respawn myself since even after BSTing 9 additional minutes had passed. My timer was definitely up and we pass respawns out for similiar reasons all the time. My staff can verify this. 

So i joined again as a janitor. The slot happened to be open and again it is my favorite job. I of course had no meta information on the game. All i saw was a brig that was depressurized for... some reason. I accused engineering of not doing their job and then of course some conflict over the radio happened. This was just a little IC talk. I was not intending to metagrudge you or anything. Shortly after auto-traitor just happened to select me as traitor. Any staff member can check the logs and verify that i did not use my administrative perms to turn myself into a traitor. I then decided to go my usual route of stealing a voidsuit from engineering and robbing the armory. 

While i was heading to security to steal stuff you mentioned over the radio that "someone had stolen a voidsuit" and that it "was probably that janitor who said he would fix the brig". I did not like this. I accosted you over the radio and a verbal fight broke out. i of course was antag at this point and lieing about fixing the brig.  It was just a convenient excuse. My character was annoyed with you so after finding a manhack grenade in a locker i lobbed it at you. The manhacks then crit you. I know you do not believe me when i say this but i see manhacks used so often and they never ever ever kill anyone. They are so easy to melee to death with any kind of weapon and IPCs have brute resistance. That is why i came to heal you. I legitimately felt bad OOC and then before i could release you an LOOC thing started. Then the round ended. 

if i was legitimately metagrudging you i would have pulled out my revolver and shot you to death. I obviously did not do this. I did not intend to kill you. 

[Bauser]

Some people might rightly argue that pursuing a janitor (AKA custodial technician AKA a maintenance role) so relentlessly just for having maintenance tools and gloves is the source of the LRP here. You (Leudoberct) were so afraid of a character having equipment that their role could reasonably be expected to have (even if it's not utterly typical), that you repeatedly antagonized them for no observed offense and then formed a mob to pursue them when security didn't satisfy your (figurative) bloodthirst.

I certainly recall when I played janitor, I stayed highly concerned with little tidbits of electrical work Installing lights, fixing vending machines, things sometimes too inconsequential for actual engineers to divert attention for. From this perspective, the amount of grief you gave Thomas for having gloves was completely unjustifiable to start with.

We see the consequences of this spelled out here: You forced the actual antagonist away from his intended plans and cornered him into acting defensively, upsetting any attempts he may have had for enacting his own plans to create narrative-driven gameplay, in favor of this paranoia-infused antag-hunt. And then when it turns out you were right, and you were forcing an appointed antagonist into a tight spot, you still complain that he reacted to the massive pressure you put on him...? How do you justify that hypocrisy, wherein it was right for you to go hunting, but it was wrong for him to defend? Even though he was the one assigned by the game to be the actor (the antagonist), the one who's supposed to set action into motion?

And "hunting" truly must be the word to describe it. In various complaints, we have seen many times that people say "we never meant to hurt him," and yet they did not hesitate to create an environment where violence would be inevitable. Just last week, I think, we saw the ERT team who turned into pirates; they never meant to hurt anyone, but they did go onto the station with lots of guns and armor and start stealing stuff... What outcomes are to be expected, when this path is chosen? Similarly, what does one expect to happen when you form a gang of people to take someone's gear, under threat of force? Simply put, you create a situation where the only possible results are either boring (antagonist peacefully hands over insulated gloves, and his ability to drive gameplay is stunted) or extreme (he refuses, and fighting breaks out). Someone being disappointed was an inevitable consequence of your decision to obsess over the gloves and keep applying pressure, and this complaint seems to indicate a dissatisfaction that the person who got disappointed was you instead of him.

 

Feel free to delete this post if you are an admin of the opinion that someone cannot respond in a complaint or request in which they were not directly involved. Conversely, I would argue that anyone has the ability to take information presented by those who were involved and use it to form connections that haven't been considered yet.

[GlitterGuts]

I feel this is more of a failure on securities part. They should have had CSI or equivalent check engineering lockers for prints and unaccounted gloves. Had his prints been found and confirmed that he had no permission to be there, then none of this would have been likely to happen.

10 hours ago, Leudoberct said:

However, they still rejoined the round with what was essentially a copy paste of their janitor character with a new name slapped on, and even had the same target, that being me. 

I feel like Garn should have chosen a different job or atleast different traitor gear and personality. It seems like crankshaft knew it was you even before you did anything overt. You shouldn't be so easy to pick out like that.

10 hours ago, Leudoberct said:

, Thomas Bowchiew, wearing full-grade insulated gloves. I reported this to security due to it being something that only an engineer should have. It was noted by security, but no action was taken.

Did you ask Thomas to return the gloves or ask them where they got them from? If so, I think you did the right thing and sec was just being lazy. If you didnt ask them, or notify them to return the gloves, I can see why they would get jumpy and open fire (although I think they should have not ran away, they wouldnt be searched further, saying you just found the gloves in maint etc. Im sure you could have thought of something garn)

[Leudoberct]

Bowchiew was asked where he got the gloves from and said that he had "bought them on the surface". Crankshaft checked to see if there had been a merchant docking and found no evidence of it. Additionally, I wouldn't call what I did "hunting" or "antagonising". I simply repeatedly told security that he had full-grade insulated gloves- something that the wiki states that only engineers have authorisation to use. (Source: https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Station_Engineer, equipment section.)  We only decided to attempt to take his gloves after security did nothing to act upon it after multiple warnings about it and after he had PDA'd me himself to argue with Crankshaft. I wouldn't call my criticism of his choice to open fire hypocrisy at all. There was no RP to it, he just pulled the gun and instantly began firing, without even knowing if we were there to attack him or take his gloves. Additionally, I don't think it's really fair to say that I should be expected to not act as my character would- that being trying to ensure that someone who is not qualified to make use of equipment such as that is not using it. Not only for the reason of the potential for them to be hacking into places- there's also the potential for them to hurt themselves messing with wires that they don't understand. Perfectly logical reasoning is not validhunting.

[GlitterGuts]

If that was the case it seems security was slacking HARD and your course of action to have the HoS charged with man-slaughter was good thinking and a good play imo. If what you say is true, garn was too triggerhappy (which is something Ive been bwoinked for doing something very similar. Getting scared and attacking wordlessly). Its unbecoming of a head madmin to show such poor RP which other people would have been ticketed for.

[Garnascus]

2 hours ago, Leudoberct said:

I wouldn't call my criticism of his choice to open fire hypocrisy at all. There was no RP to it, he just pulled the gun and instantly began firing, without even knowing if we were there to attack him or take his gloves

 

2 hours ago, GlitterGuts said:

If what you say is true, garn was too triggerhappy (which is something Ive been bwoinked for doing something very similar. Getting scared and attacking wordlessly).

This is extremely frustrating to keep seeing.  There is absolutely no reality where you tell an antag with perma-briggable contraband on him that he has to wait and see what the engineers breaking into his department want. Full. Stop. 

 

[Bear]

I dont see what Garn did wrong here. You assumed Sec's job as an engineer to take an antags item by force.

(Which honestly was a poor decision. Your char has a history of swinging his ipc hp pool around and snobbing at security, but you have to understand you put yourself at risk and besides you are usually only aware of 1/3rd thats going on without sec comms)

So the antag defended themself. Theyre not obligated to stop and wait for you to rp. I always attempt rp first. Not everyone does. He cant know which you are. Then you re-antagonized the antag and he acted on it. He was even going to heal you which hes not obligated to do. Dying is frustrating. We get emotional and miss our mistakes. I struggle with this too sometimes. I get it. But try and see their point as well.

[Leudoberct]

That was a single incident on an expedition where Crankshaft went ahead of security. That is not a history, at all. Also, with the way the janitor was behaving, I did not think they were an antag.I thought they were a new person from an LRP server, not an actual antag. This is a view shared by the person who encouraged me to make this complaint, who I will not name.

 

[Alberyk]

I will handle this.

First, not sure why exactly this is a staff complaint, can you explain what was wrong with garn's behavior staff wise?

Second, the insulated gloves thing was kinda silly, while I understand that you were mislead by a wiki passage that was written eons ago (that I also asked to be removed), it is kinda silly to think that only engineers should have some monopoly on the insulated gloves. And yes, it is fine for them to open fire on you when three engineers are breaking into the janitor office.

Third, antag selection is rng, and people are free to join as whatever job they want when they can respawn, as long it is another character and they don't meta any knowledge, which is what Garn did here. Unless, you think that he abused his powers, which is not something I can find here.

And last, who exactly he was acting as low rp?

[Leudoberct]

I was told that this was supposed to be a staff complaint- if that is not the case, then please move this to the player complaint section.

My point is not about the gloves or his opening fire on us- I was giving a recount of the round. My point is that Garnascus seems to constantly play half-baked no detail characters, with randomised names, bald haircuts, no flavour text, and then appears to play them in a manner that is more LRP, with little roleplay and thought put into their character. Additionally, regarding the insulated gloves, I would say it is pretty fair for my character to report it after being given a dodgy answer as to where he got them, and then seeing the janitor move around with the insulated gloves and a toolbox- which is pretty suspicious to an engineer that knows that those tools + the gloves likely means someone is hacking into places. Also, I already said that I know he did not spawn himself as an antag, I was commenting on the fact that it seemed as if he respawned as pretty much the same character with just a new name, picked the exact same traitor gear (but with more ammo this time) and a seeming vendetta against engineering (which was just my character at this point due to the rest being dead.)

[Snakebittenn]

Two small corrections. 

You can't randomize names on spawn, names are locked. 

 

Two, you can get insulated gloves from the tool vendor if you have a coin. 

[Leudoberct]

I would like to withdraw this complaint.