Player Complaint - Jesse Armstrong

[Snakebittenn]

BYOND Key: ParadoxSpace
Game ID: b29-c4oW
Player Byond Key/Character name: Jesse Armstrong
Staff involved: Simon the Miner
Reason for complaint: I was playing my new Quartermaster at the time, when I was told by the warden (Opamator) that there was an order. I pinned to the notice board my standard shipping fees (and cost for autolathe items) when I checked the order. It was for two boxes of slugs, which I did not like one bit. It's generally super awful to order lethals at roundstart, especially under the age-old pretense of 'just restocking the armory.' I asked them why there was a desire for slugs, in which they dodged the question for around 25 seconds then told me it was just the HoS's orders. They called the HoS over, who also hardly provided a reason besides 'Restocking the armory' and an officer told me 'For training.' The lack of an actual good reason made me think it was metagaming, so I contacted staff (the next section.) I was then arrested (which I went along with, except that Opamator sternly refused to communicate in an effective manner with me). Generally, I feel like there's metagaming behind this, and that the HoS was not behaving properly. 
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, in which we were unsure what to do with it, so Simon politely told me the same thing the HoS did.
Approximate Date/Time: Just last round, 9/8/2019.

[Spider]

Given the station been assaulted by raiders, liidra, and now the recent SLF arc, it makes sense for the armory to be stocked with lethal munitions. This has been done plenty of times before, I've seen it myself. The officer that said it was for 'training' wasn't speaking for me. I was bwoinked about it and I said that it was to be kept in the armory unless needed, and the ticket was closed. If security was restricted to what they had in the armory then why even have the cargo order in the first place? If it was the actual case of an emergency it's very likely that services would be held up or attempted to be disabled if there was wind of extra munitions being routed to the station by the Odin.

 

Also Easter having a balaclava is fine, he keeps his face visible which is no problem for me.

[SatinsPristOTD]

8 minutes ago, Negativ900x said:

Not directly involved but would like to add to this point:

When I was waiting in the cargo lobby to see the quartermaster I witnessed Jesse Armstrong and Oscar Easter enter as well but Oscar was wearing a balaclava which struck me as odd when most security staff would detain anyone else wearing it or even being in possession of it. Meanwhile here we have an officer wearing it next to the HoS. This happend the same round.

Not related to the complaint.

But to answer you, Oscar is known for it, and they aren't against any sort of regulation. I can't say I've seen someone arrested for wearing one.

As for Paradox's complaint, your character didn't properly RP any of that either. Instead of trying to have handled ICly and going up the chain of command, you just continued to ignore people and flat out OOCly power push the order to not happen.

Your character doesn't have much reason to ignore the orders of a Command member, and if you did have complaints ICly, you would have voiced them instead of sitting there, ignoring people and not escalating the situation properly.

Should he order slugs and such? Well, Alb has said not at round start, but this isn't wrote down anywhere. At all. It's not in the rules, I've never heard him say it (I'm not denying it, but I'm stating I've only heard this by WORD OF MOUTH). It's not on any wiki page to my knowledge.

Spider is right. This station has CANONLY gone through a lot of shit, even as recent as this summer. People are ICly paranoid now, and we've gave them enough canon arcs to be that way.

The HoS didn't respond to anything improperly this round. I found Armstrong to be giving the antag a lot more freedom than most do.

[Faris]

Handling this.

A number of people had their comments removed and/or warned by staff.

Do not post unless involved, I do not want a dog pile on either side. I am perfectly capable of asking questions on aspects of this complaint I'm not familiar with.

[sonicgotnuked]

This is the game ID that this incident took place. Around 3:30 -7 UTC. I will add to this complaint.

 

This round I have observed some very unacceptable behavior from Jesse armstrong. Note, I did not witness the situation leading up to this moment, but I'm going to account what I saw.

 

I saw Jesse Armstrong Ion rifle an unarmed robotisist without engaging in proper escalation before hand. What I was told, this was because the Aut'akh Unathi decided to fix the IPC instead of pulling outs its posibrain. I witnessed another scientist try and stop his character, and he briefly got whacked a few times with a telebaton while the Aut'akh Unathi. After watching the Aut'akh's legs burn fry from the Ions, he proceeded to beat him around 3-5 times with a telebaton while he was on the floor. He then proceeded to cuff and drag up to security with complete disregard to medical needs. The round ended with both other heads of staff voting him into a demotion. 

[Spider]

15 minutes ago, sonicgotnuked said:

This is the game ID that this incident took place. Around 3:30 -7 UTC. I will add to this complaint.

 

This round I have observed some very unacceptable behavior from Jesse armstrong. Note, I did not witness the situation leading up to this moment, but I'm going to account what I saw.

 

I saw Jesse Armstrong Ion rifle an unarmed robotisist without engaging in proper escalation before hand. What I was told, this was because the Aut'akh Unathi decided to fix the IPC instead of pulling outs its posibrain. I witnessed another scientist try and stop his character, and he briefly got whacked a few times with a telebaton while the Aut'akh Unathi. After watching the Aut'akh's legs burn fry from the Ions, he proceeded to beat him around 3-5 times with a telebaton while he was on the floor. He then proceeded to cuff and drag up to security with complete disregard to medical needs. The round ended with both other heads of staff voting him into a demotion. 

This is demonstrably false, anyone who looks at the logs can see what you have just said is absolutely incorrect.

 

I had gave a direct order to remove the posibrain of the raider who had boarded the station and engaged security personnel. They are, effectively, a threat to the station along with them having been in possesion of sensitive documents that would seriously damage Nanotrasen. The Autakh Unathi did not listen to me when I asked them to take out the posi, instead they simply responded "i will fix" or something along the lines of that before wordlessly moving to do surgery.

I gave ample warning, I first told them verbally to stop. They did not listen. I batoned them, used cable and told them to stop. They did not listen. They broke the cuffs and lashed out to me, I tased them, they got back up and still did not listen. They had the saw in their hands and that's when I finally brandished the ion rifle, on stun, mind you, and asked them to stand down. At this point I had no ammo in my baton or my energy pistol so I had to use my telebaton on disarm intent on the other attacking scientist, which does no damage and only deals hallos. It was at this point they STILL charged at me, despite me having an ion rifle. The IPC on the table was even ASKING to have its posi removed instead of going through with this. I shot them with the stun ion, they disregarded all fearRP and self-preservation for themselves. After I used the ion, they were on the floor. But get this, they STILL got up. I had to then disable their legs with the baton at harm intent, I had no cuffs, and there was no cable to restrain with as they were all broken. Medical was let in, security came in and cuffs, and I did not touch them after that. Saying that I dragged them to security is false, I tended to the problem of the raiders, not the Unathi who was disobeying orders for no understandable reason.

 

The heads voting for demotion was related to another IC incident which was, well, IC.

[SatinsPristOTD]

In response to the above complaint:

Armstrong did warn the person that if they didn't stop, he'd Ion them. They did break the cable cuffs he had placed on them.


HOWEVER, he DID beat them while they were knocked down and Ion'd.


Hope those help when looking into the situation.

[Spider]

5 minutes ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

In response to the above complaint:

Armstrong did warn the person that if they didn't stop, he'd Ion them. They did break the cable cuffs he had placed on them.


HOWEVER, he DID beat them while they were knocked down and Ion'd.


Hope those help when looking into the situation.

I had only beaten their legs when they were knocked down because they had still refused to stop chasing me. They continued to get up even when being ioned. I was afraid one more shot would've killed them so I had moved to disable their robotic limbs.

 

Edit: Looking back at the chat logs, their legs were sparking. I didn't see that, I was too focused on the sprites on my screen. What I had saw was them still getting up and still approaching me.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Spider

[sonicgotnuked]

Like I said, I wasn't around before the ions came out. I posted what I saw in my perspective then saw immediately the Aut'akh dragged up to the brig.

 

The round ID is there for any review and I will leave it at that.

[Nantei]

Heya, I was here for this round and can add to something that happened later, which I want to get to in-case someone else reports it before me.

I played Fang Xun, my Chief Engineer. For most of the round Fang had little interest in the documents that were being contested, and focused on keeping her staff safe from the questionable visitors, permitting some armaments so long as they stayed within Engineering, of which we fortified for our protection since the antagonists had already broken into several areas and departments. Where Jesse gets involved is when Mei tells everyone that Unity has held her at gunpoint and stolen her ID. Fang came to check it out, and backed up when they saw Unity was heavily armed, waiting for Security to show up. Jesse shows up, Unity complies and lets him arrest her, then Jesse kicked her head once since apparently she had been antagonizing him a lot that shift. Fang and Mei were both pretty mortified by this, and immediately voted to suspend him and hand Unity over to other ISD members that could be trusted not to abuse her. @SHODAN Can attest that the escalation was reasonable given the events of the round. Jesse refused to stand down since he was acting on direct orders from Central, of which Fang and Mei had not seen, and were loathe to believe after he abused a peaceful prisoner in front of them. A simple IC issue.

The only concern I had was that Jesse's player did not seem to fully understand how IPC's relate to regulations, specifically owned and free IPC's. I am not sure if that was a misunderstanding or something, but I am confident they understand the difference now if they had not prior. I wanted to post this even though I felt it was reasonable because I believe Spider has good intentions, and is committed to improvement. I would urge staff to please keep this in mind when reviewing the complaint. Thank you.

[SatinsPristOTD]

1 minute ago, Nantei said:

The only concern I had was that Jesse's player did not seem to fully understand how IPC's relate to regulations, specifically owned and free IPC's.

This is due to the wiki contradicting itself, and I have contacted Kyres on resolving this issue.

[Faris]

@Spider

I need you to clarify a few things.

1- While presently it may be allowed to order other department members around, I do wonder why neglect of duty was added as a charge? Does your character have experience in the supply department? Do they have the necessary background information like a Head of Personnel? I don't think neglect of duty is a charge that can really be charged like that without insight, as it requires an individual(s) with the background to determine it, which is mentioned in the regulation itself. 

"This can be due to honest or dishonest mistakes that the Head of the Department feels hampers Department productivity. Examples include scientists/engineers releasing phoron or causing a breach, doctors mixing up medicines that cause injury to patients, or the Warden not doing his job. Additionally, a member of Command may only be charged with Neglect of Duty with the agreement of the Captain, or through a Captain level decision passed by the Command Staff."

2- Related to the above, you immediately went to detain a person outside the chain of command, despite a Head of Personnel and Captain being present. Why didn't you bring this up with them? 

3- Did you ever try to explain why you gave the order to remove the hostiles brain?

[Spider]

1 hour ago, Aboshedab said:

@Spider

I need you to clarify a few things.

1- While presently it may be allowed to order other department members around, I do wonder why neglect of duty was added as a charge? Does your character have experience in the supply department? Do they have the necessary background information like a Head of Personnel? I don't think neglect of duty is a charge that can really be charged like that without insight, as it requires an individual(s) with the background to determine it, which is mentioned in the regulation itself. 

"This can be due to honest or dishonest mistakes that the Head of the Department feels hampers Department productivity. Examples include scientists/engineers releasing phoron or causing a breach, doctors mixing up medicines that cause injury to patients, or the Warden not doing his job. Additionally, a member of Command may only be charged with Neglect of Duty with the agreement of the Captain, or through a Captain level decision passed by the Command Staff."

2- Related to the above, you immediately went to detain a person outside the chain of command, despite a Head of Personnel and Captain being present. Why didn't you bring this up with them? 

3- Did you ever try to explain why you gave the order to remove the hostiles brain?

1. Honestly, from what I understand, the job of the QM is simply to see that orders go through. They do not have the decision to deny an order given it was done through the proper facets, ready payment, and authorization from a head of staff. To me it was straightforward neglect of duty. The captain and HoP at the time had both agreed that they were not doing their job properly and were informed of the consequences of an arrest should they continue to refuse to do their job. To me supply seems like a low-skill job, and their reasons for denying the order were not valid either from an IC standpoint.

2. It was brought up with the captain and HoP over comms @SatinsPristOTD was Scarlett Hayden. I told them what was going on and an officer asked if they could make the QM give the order. I don't think she did though but she agreed when I had made the arrest and there was no objection from any heads of staff. The HoP at the time was quite unresponsive but that was due to them being an antag at the time.

3. Yes, I told them that the IPC was a hostile insurgent that boarded with a raiding party. A number of times, actually, they still did not listen.

[SatinsPristOTD]

12 hours ago, Spider said:

she did though but she agreed when I had made the arrest

No, I said if he continued to be the way he was, then you could arrest him. I was honestly unaware he was arrested.

But both Spider and I talked over Command about the QM's inability to a)do the order, or b)at least mention why he wasn't going to do said order.

It still felt very OOCly charged on Paradox's behalf. He didn't bring it up to his heads that he had an issue. He didn't even tell Spider why he had an issue with it ICly (to my knowledge).

In regards to Cargo orders, orders can be made by the departments respectable head, and they shouldn't be questioned ICly, as that head knows best for his department.

Restocking the armory with slugs at round start can be seen in bad light (but it isn't wrote down anywhere that you shouldn't do it), however... Paradox's just... OOC response ICly is an actual problem here.

[Snakebittenn]

Allow me to restate the chain of events, as there was valid IC motivation here (despite the breach of 'do whatever a head of staff tells you')
 

Opamator came by. Ordered slugs. I asked what. They said the slugs. I asked why. They said they needed them. I asked why; be specific. They said the HoS' orders, called Jesse by, Jesse told me it was for restocking the armory. I asked what for, told them NT already stocked it, etc etc. was told it was because they ordered it and they're command. asked if they were expecting hostilities. asked if there were hostilities right now. was only told 'no.' they came in and arrested me, so I followed them to the brig, went in the processing cubicle, got arrested (after, admittingly, refusing to give over my ID to Opamator until it said please, which netted me an additional charge of resisting arrest), went to the cell, sat there, asked Summer Snow if she'd bring me a blanket for the bed, roleplayed with her a few minutes, exited the brig, went back to work, fulfilled an order by Oscar Easter (a tactical hud), shot down some order by Jake Jarvis under some weird title the Captain gave him (how was I to know that was a real security officer), asked again about the slugs, still didn't fill the order.

i played ball with the arrest

i just didn't play ball with the roundstart lethals order.

re; the other incident

I was roboticist, my Aut'akh girl Zolazli. I had been fixing Kaden Rivers, when Heph Mover was thrown into my bay. I was already in the middle of repairing them, having dumped about 4 tubes of nanopaste into their crippled body, just fixed their battery and shit, etcetera. They were not dead at this point, merely severely damaged. I was just about to put some Aut'akh model limbs in them when Jesse came by and started yelling at me through the airlock to not fix them, but pull out their brain. Absolutely not, that's like asking Medical to not fix a dude's legs but instead MMI them. They didn't even have hands, so I'm not sure what threat they could be, so I continued to attempt removing their old broken legs. Jesse somehow got his way inside and began stunbatonning me for it. This was a deeply upsetting experience for the both of us, so I attempted to liberate him of his stunbaton and throw it in disposals. This ended up getting me ion'd. 

The only reason I did both of these things was because both of these orders are completely illogical, entirely unexplained, and in the second case, probably illegitimate as well.

[GreenBoi]

Hello, I played HEPH-MOVER 345 the Heister helping out with the gimmick by talking to IPCs and being the muscle with very good, but sadly not ion-proof armor. This was the second time ever I was playing an IPC in custody from Jesse, who was basically nuggetified (had all limbs removed), but this time they wanted my brain extracted. I can't say much for the original QM escapades part of this, but I did see the entirety of the situation where Zolzali got batoned.

 

 Alright, now here's the stuff about the IPC-debraining thing

Spoiler

 

Jesse wanted my brain extracted because I was a serious convict who would be very dangerous if I broke out. This decision is kinda in a weird limbo because there are both good and bad reasons for this. Some of the good reasons are:

-It's just an old and barely functioning IPC, who cares if its brain is extracted, it already did a bunch of infractions and broke several laws

-It's not THAT big of a deal to extract a positronic brain, IPCs are usually punished worse for less

 

But then, there are also some strange reasons like "its a threat if it breaks out", which doesn't mean much when the unit is missing even just one foot, or their arms...either of those limbs  being gone renders them an easier-to-deal threat. You could even just get rid of the hands, and that'd be enough and there's also the fact that G1s are super slow and would be unable to escape if literally any more than 1 person was around to check on them.

 

So, the second order being completely illogical is up to interpretation at best and was an overstepping at worst.

 

For the thing about Zolzali getting baton'd. What I saw was a mix of reasonable and slightly unreasonable things. Zolzali didn't do much except try to give me prosthetics and I think Armstrong rushed a bit too fast on beating them up and shooting an ion (which would be incredibly painful thing for Aut'akh, even with it set to Safe). When I say too fast, I mean as in, as soon as Armstrong saw Zolzali try to cut off a limb stump to add new prosthetics to me, they baton'd, cuffed, threw them across the room in an instant instead of having a stern talk with them (given that it was now only code blue and while security could still look for any stowaway intruders, they were less in a hurry than before).

 

I'm not really going to give a full opinion on either these, just saying things from my experience of one situation.

[SatinsPristOTD]

56 minutes ago, ParadoxSpace said:

Jake Jarvis under some weird title the Captain gave him (how was I to know that was a real security officer),

Not by me. I wasn't involved in the weirdo shit the HoP did with Jarvis's ID.

[Spider]

I had given my reasons for wanting the posi removed and had wanted to elaborate further with the Autakh but they completely ignored me and wordlessly went on with the surgery (or repair idk what to call it). That's why I just reacted with the baton as they seemingly didn't want to have any reasonable interaction with me.

 

Not to forget the context of the round. It was focused around a document that would (allegedly) threaten Nanotrasen and put them in a bad position with the law. There were directives provided by Central Command to secure them and not allow anyone who isn't implanted to be able to view them. I had an interaction with HEPH-MOVER earlier during the round and he and his team seemed adamant and determined in exposing this so-called truth to everyone and were not willing to back down at all. They didn't accept payment and he at one point also stated he was under orders. It was because of this I felt it would've been the best course to have the posi removed so that it could be controlled easier instead of risking a breach of information by a quite powerful IPC. I have to apologize as I didn't know that it wasn't dead and was only heavily injured, it had been shot with the kill-ion twice and I'm not familiar with the units make or robustness really oocly.

 

Honestly all this could've been avoided if Paradox spared the time to allow interaction with my character instead of completely ignoring them to complete a request. I know it's a morally questionable thing to do to an IPC but the events of the round had called for that. I'm not surprised that they denied the order, that's natural in any case but they didn't even try to hear me out or understand the gravity of the situation, which I feel wasn't justified OOCly or ICly and was reasonably responded to with an arrest. They had shown a lack of fearrp and painrp when being arrested and did not want to back down even with the threat of an ion rifle. The whole interaction would've proven to be a threat to their employment and even life but they ignored such because they wanted to fix a robot that came from a hostile boarding party, which I find to be an unrealistic response.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Spider

[Faris]

Sorry for the delay on this. A rather unforgiving week in terms of real life responsibilities.

 

Expect some form of resolution today or tomorrow.

[Faris]

I'll keep this brief. The following are the clauses that can result in a whitelist removal.

Quote

Failure to uphold the standards put in place for a member of command.

Receiving too many administrative actions.

The player has received too many administrative actions related to being a command player. Some of these actions are relevant to incidents that have been listed here.

Their whitelist has been removed. They are free to apply again in no less than a month, which is the 21st of October. 

Locking and archiving this.