Remove Gank

[Kaed]

7 hours ago, Carver said:

I still stand by removal of the base pen, there should remain the energy crossbow for disabling people silently and above all noticeably via sensors.

Yes, we must undermine people's ability to capture individuals silently by allowing medical and savvy AIs to immediately see what is happening to them via suit sensors.

Except no, that's the kind of regressive anti-antag mentality that insists antagonists must be punished for daring to be a bad guy in our utopian roleplay focused society.  Before the liver update the crossbow was largely a pretty gimmicky item but at least it worked, albeit by telegraphing it strongly via toxins damage. (Though, admittedly, the last time I used it, we hadn't updated to vague terminology on the monitor and used to have numerical values shown.)  Now, you hypothetically can kill someone through liver damage trying to crossbow them down repeatedly, which somewhat defeats the purpose of taking a hostage, if you kill slowly them in the capture attempt.  However, it's also ranged and has multiple rechargable shots, so it having a downside like this is probably okay.

As far as I'm concerned, spotting a parapen kidnapping happening on camera or in person should be enough for anyone, or we're undermining the very concept of 'stealth' by forcing kidnappings to show up on the health monitor.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Kaed

[Garnascus]

Please do not remove any more tools that antags have to actually be stealthy. 

[Carver]

3 hours ago, Kaed said:

Yes, we must undermine people's ability to capture individuals silently by allowing medical and savvy AIs to immediately see what is happening to them via suit sensors.

Except no, that's the kind of regressive anti-antag mentality that insists antagonists must be punished for daring to be a bad guy in our utopian roleplay focused society.  Before the liver update the crossbow was largely a pretty gimmicky item but at least it worked, albeit by telegraphing it strongly via toxins damage. (Though, admittedly, the last time I used it, we hadn't updated to vague terminology on the monitor and used to have numerical values shown.)  Now, you hypothetically can kill someone through liver damage trying to crossbow them down repeatedly, which somewhat defeats the purpose of taking a hostage, if you kill slowly them in the capture attempt.  However, it's also ranged and has multiple rechargable shots, so it having a downside like this is probably okay.

As far as I'm concerned, spotting a parapen kidnapping happening on camera or in person should be enough for anyone, or we're undermining the very concept of 'stealth' by forcing kidnappings to show up on the health monitor.

You can plan ahead by either buying one of these, or making an improvised one. I prefer when kidnappings and other actions require some amount of planning, and not a throwaway amount of TCs in an item disguised so well that it can never be found.

[ben10083]

17 hours ago, Carver said:

Pros:

• Ranged
• Recharges
• Causes toxin damage (building up if used repeatedly)

Cons:

• Harder to conceal
• Costs more
• Causes liver damage (if used repeatedly)

Crossbow kidnappings generally require more forethought, and a fair dedication of telecrystals. Parapen kidnappings are, like their item, cheap disposable affairs.

Yet the parapen is a one-time use (you have to make your own 'ammo' afterwards), which is balanced by its cheap cost and concealment. Security will rekt your shit if you are seen with a crossbow, and I won't be surprised if you can still use the radio for a bit after getting hit, causing you to be revealed regardless. 

 

So once again, what makes the pen the problem here? With emags causing instant conversions, agent ids providing ez all access, and a multitude of weapons that can 1-2 shot anyone, why is the fucking pen the problem? Once again, what makes to pen so bad? All it does is knock you out for a bit so the antag can actually try something stealthy before sec sniffs them out.

[Carver]

6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

With emags causing instant conversions

First swipe unlocks the panel, then you have to crowbar, then you swipe again.

6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

agent ids providing ez all access

??? They start with maintenance access. You have to swipe them on another card, typically stolen, to acquire said access. If you have access to the spare that allows for 'ez all access' you can print an ID with the same level of access in under a minute without needing an agent ID.

6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

a multitude of weapons that can 1-2 shot anyone

Yes, and these weapons cost quite a lot and tend to be very noisy. If you want to get away with using them undetected, it requires forethought and planning.

6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

Security will rekt your shit if you are seen with a crossbow

This is a good thing. You should be required to conceal your toys, whether by simply not showing them or knowing when to hide them in a stash when you expect to be searched (Toilet cisterns, compressed matter implants, fire closet lockers and potted plants are all very good for this).

Thus my issue with the pen is it requires near-zero forethought, planning or investment to kill someone with an item that's undetectable short of metagaming jackasses stabbing themself with every pen in your bag. The single most abused item in all of the uplink, to which out of the five times I've been stabbed with one (on HRP servers), four were to guarantee an effortless kill and had to be ahelped. In over half a decade I've never seen (almost) any other item abused or cheesed as hard as parapens, short of the instant stun batons and stun talismans.

[Nantei]

I'd like to reiterate that what the parapen does, can usually be achieved using far more versatile tools. A gun should suffice just fine for kidnapping most anyone, the e-crossbow included. If you need quiet, the suppressed 9mm is perfect. There's a lot of options here for quietly kidnapping someone that can't be abused so badly. The only thing the parapen is really absolutely necessary for is when people fail their roleplay by not reacting 'correctly' to a gun being pointed at them. Instant stuns usually aren't super fun. I don't think the parapen is absolutely necessary to our current roster of antagonist items, even though I don't have any real strong convictions against it.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nantei

[PoZe]

On 19/11/2019 at 17:28, Garnascus said:

Please do not remove any more tools that antags have to actually be stealthy. 

The PR is not removing anything.it only adds 4 more useful stealth pens

[Garnascus]

6 minutes ago, PoZe said:

The PR is not removing anything.it only adds 4 more useful stealth pens

I was referring to the OP who wanted it removed. 

[PoZe]

PR has been merged, moving to complete projects.

[Cnaym]

Helloa. I know this is completed but I would love to take a minute to thank all of you for the ideas and work put into it