Stationbound nerfs

[Chada1]

This comes on the back of the AI removal vote that just resulted in us keeping it, if we're going to fix the long-standing problems with 'borgs and the AI, we need to make changes in some of their joined mechanics. I'll go indepth on why they should or should not exist and where the good of these and the bad of these starts.

The largest offender, and the longest standing complaint with 'borgs and AI.
BOLTING AIRLOCKS): I've tried to find a lasting redeemable use for bolting, but the reality is there just isn't any use outside of bolting in Antags.  Literally most of the good uses of this feature (locking in an aggressive monster, preventing the spread of a fire, biohazard, etc) can be solved just by raising the emergency fire shutters and warning Crew to avoid the area. The AI and/or 'borgs only ever use this for one valuable purpose which is to unbolt airlocks and/or keep them open for people to enter. If given a way to unbolt airlocks, this can be entirely removed without losing anything valuable.

This one is a much weaker offender but still has problems.
ELECTRICIfYING AIRLOCKS): This one has no real value at all outside of when a 'borg/AI is subverted, otherwise it's used for the same negative reasons as bolting airlocks, to harm Antags and negatively effect the current rounds' narrative. This one doesn't even need to be replaced. It can just be outright removed. On the standard lawset you can hardly even use this without breaking your laws except when it involves non-Crew, which is NOT GOOD.

The final change which would save the utility in both of these options is): A simple 'RESET' Airlock button to disable the bolting and the electrifying. It simply returns every option back to its default, (unbolted, unelectrified) un-everything, assuming the mechanism is working properly.

These two changes should make a massive difference in gameplay if they're addressed and they shouldn't be too difficult to do actually. There is no real value to keeping either of these features, the only valuable utility to bolting airlocks is to unbolt, not to bolt. The fire alarm can do everything bolting does without locking Antags into a room.

Another possible change is to make cameras have a blinking light overlay applied to them if the AI is currently in its radius, but that'd require some kind of code to monitor where the AI and cameras are and I don't know how hard that'd be.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Chada1

[Cnaym]

4 hours ago, Chada1 said:

On the standard lawset you can hardly even use this without breaking your laws except when it involves non-Crew, which is NOT GOOD

I been thinking a lot about that law. It would make a lot of sense to have an AI not be able to harm any "intelligent" life. Might be visitors, or a janitor who lost their ID. 100% Agree with both changes, a good solution.

[Chada1]

43 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

I been thinking a lot about that law. It would make a lot of sense to have an AI not be able to harm any "intelligent" life. Might be visitors, or a janitor who lost their ID. 100% Agree with both changes, a good solution.

I'd be entirely okay with that, actually. But I dunno if a lot of other people will be onboard.

If you go to alter the current NT default, please, please also rephrase the 'to the best of your ability' to 'to the best of your units' ability' because as it stands it's basically encouraging you to powergame.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Chada1

[Pratepresidenten]

12 hours ago, Chada1 said:

The final change which would save the utility in both of these options is): A simple 'RESET' Airlock button to disable the bolting and the electrifying. It simply returns every option back to its default, (unbolted, unelectrified) un-everything, assuming the mechanism is working properly.

Who would have access to this? If you can just lolreset an airlock, might aswell just remove the configurability of airlocks, since they pretty much become pointless. That is, if this is just as a common feature as resetting the fire alarm.

12 hours ago, Chada1 said:

Another possible change is to make cameras have a blinking light overlay applied to them if the AI is currently in its radius, but that'd require some kind of code to monitor where the AI and cameras are and I don't know how hard that'd be.

Dis is gud. I like this.

[Chada1]

1 hour ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Who would have access to this? If you can just lolreset an airlock, might aswell just remove the configurability of airlocks, since they pretty much become pointless. That is, if this is just as a common feature as resetting the fire alarm.

Only the AI and 'borgs would get access to it as it is, all it would do is give 'borgs the ability to unbolt/unelectrify airlocks without also giving them the ability to bolt/electrify them. Engineering could be given access to it in some forms, but it's not a thing that you'd just walk up and activate as an assistant or anything, if engineering did get access to it, it'd probably be through that debugger item that you use to reset bluescreened APCs.

'borgs/AI having access to this is barely at all any different than how it is now, they can just walk up and reset the entire airlock by hand, this isn't new, this just removes their ability to bolt/electrify and streamlines their ability to fix airlocks a bit.

EDIT: Also in the implementation in my head, you wouldn't be able to reset anything that has the wire cut, so if the bolt wire is cut and the bolts are down/etc, you can't use the reset button to fix that, which solves the problem you just mentioned even with it being common I think (Which it wouldn't be common)

Edited May 16, 2020 by Chada1

[Pratepresidenten]

Fair 'nuff

[Zundy]

I'm onboard with this.

Remove bolting, remove electrifying. If possible add a blinking light over a camera to show the AI is looking.

ALSO make it so the AI can't jump to names in chat. Fixes "help @ me"

Edited May 16, 2020 by Zundy

[Chada1]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8889
As of now, a PR is open to do all of this except in a slightly different way than expected, instead of having a 'reset' option, 'borgs and AI retain their ability to unbolt/unelectrify as normal and are just blocked out of bolting/electrifying. However, there's also a 5 second timer for unbolting/unelectrifying.

[Chada1]

Oh also, this will lead to the AI actually needing to send its hands (The 'borgs) to areas in emergencies when Crew are being doofus's and trying to enter even tho it's said to be dangerous, and it'll also lead to Security/Engineering/Medical actually having to use their airlock jam tools that rarely if ever get touched, since now they can't just command the AI to bolt everything.

So overall this is positive for roleplay.

[Zyrus]

You're all forgetting that the AI player isn't always on the NT lawset. Characters can and do change up lawsets (or even purge them entirely) for the AI. Removing options for the AI just makes it more boring to play as one in these sort of situations. We would have even fewer tools to keep people out of our core if we were so inclined, since malf was removed.

This is cutting off the nose to spite our face. If you're going to do this, at least give purged AIs these abilities back.

[Chada1]

48 minutes ago, Zyrus said:

You're all forgetting that the AI player isn't always on the NT lawset. Characters can and do change up lawsets (or even purge them entirely) for the AI. Removing options for the AI just makes it more boring to play as one in these sort of situations. We would have even fewer tools to keep people out of our core if we were so inclined, since malf was removed.

This is cutting off the nose to spite our face. If you're going to do this, at least give purged AIs these abilities back.

Antagonist AI/'borgs get the abilities, but no AI operating normally should have them, and no 'borg operating normally should have them. They're actively negative for the round progression and you should just make better use of your 'borgos for keeping people out of your core/etc. I may potentially add the airlock jamming tools that each dept gets to the 'borg modules to even enable them to more sanely and less invasively lock people out of airlocks.

Also. This isn't making it more boring to play, it's making it less agonizing to play with. And it enables us to buff AI in other ways that are more positive to the game, such as this extremely awesome new feature by the same dev who is doing this PR that adds AI controlled mechs. See here: This is an attempt to fix the inherent problems of the AI and general stationbounds, not make them boring.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Chada1

[Carver]

On 15/05/2020 at 21:18, Chada1 said:

Another possible change is to make cameras have a blinking light overlay applied to them if the AI is currently in its radius, but that'd require some kind of code to monitor where the AI and cameras are and I don't know how hard that'd be.

Have a look at the antag multi-tool on other codebases that can detect when an AI is watching.

[Chada1]

11 minutes ago, Carver said:

Have a look at the antag multi-tool on other codebases that can detect when an AI is watching.

That could be neat, do you have any specific one I can search for?

[Carver]

3 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

That could be neat, do you have any specific one I can search for?

Link is sent.

[Chada1]

1 minute ago, Carver said:

Link is sent.

TYVM

[Zyrus]

18 hours ago, Chada1 said:

This is an attempt to fix the inherent problems of the AI and general stationbounds, not make them boring.

I understand this, and my responses are tempered with that in mind. Given that the majority of rounds will have the AI lawed the entire game, I understand this is what needs to be considered when doing AI reworks.

That being said, do keep in mind that making the AI effectively just a hall monitor with no real power... is not fun for the player in general.... and telling me to 'use my stationbounds' isn't viable, because that relies on players actually joining as one.

That being said, giving the AI a remote controlled exosuit that can stand in for stationbounds? That would help to mitigate the removal of these tools, I admit.

[Chada1]

23 minutes ago, Zyrus said:

That being said, do keep in mind that making the AI effectively just a hall monitor with no real power... is not fun for the player in general.... and telling me to 'use my stationbounds' isn't viable, because that relies on players actually joining as one.

Remember that in place of bolting, you can pull the fire alarm in most situations, so the functionality of bolting is p. much maintained in any situation except dealing with Antagonists. ? In that sense, it's far from being a hall monitor, you can still do most of what bolting enabled you to do.

Also glad you like the new changes too.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Chada1

[Zyrus]

42 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Remember that in place of bolting, you can pull the fire alarm in most situations, so the functionality of bolting is p. much maintained in any situation except dealing with Antagonists. ? In that sense, it's far from being a hall monitor, you can still do most of what bolting enabled you to do.

Also glad you like the new changes too.

I can't agree with this. Anyone with a crowbar will just force the shutters (and let's face it, it'll be the new meta to do just that for antags if this is put in), where you need to hack the doors and unbolt them currently, which is a bit more involved, and can be somewhat mitigated by shocking.

I understand the reasoning behind it, but don't pretend this is somehow 'better'. It's a blatant nerf.

[Chada1]

Quote

Remember that in place of bolting, you can pull the fire alarm in most situations, so the functionality of bolting is p. much maintained in any situation except dealing with Antagonists.

Notice the 'Except when dealing with antagonists' which is exactly what this is supposed to prevent. This also means Security and Command won't be hounding an AI player to constantly bolt everything, so yup, I'd say it's much better. More likely they'll just call it to pull a fire alarm and then watch/etc.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Chada1

[Zyrus]

6 hours ago, Chada1 said:

Notice the 'Except when dealing with antagonists' which is exactly what this is supposed to prevent. This also means Security and Command won't be hounding an AI player to constantly bolt everything, so yup, I'd say it's much better. More likely they'll just call it to pull a fire alarm and then watch/etc.

So you just want to replace bolting with 'pull the fire alarm'.

I don't understand why you're so hell bent on removing bolting. I can tell you right now that this is just replacing one set of 'annoyances' with another set. On top of that, it is a MAJOR PAIN IN THE ASS to do shutters sometimes as the AI, while it is simple to control click on a door.

[Chada1]

2 minutes ago, Zyrus said:

So you just want to replace bolting with 'pull the fire alarm'.

I don't understand why you're so hell bent on removing bolting. I can tell you right now that this is just replacing one set of 'annoyances' with another set. On top of that, it is a MAJOR PAIN IN THE ASS to do shutters sometimes as the AI, while it is simple to control click on a door.

Uhh.... no, it's not difficult to do shutters at all, you can do it in one click at the fire alarm and it covers the entire room instantly, it's actually easier than bolting, and it can't be used to lock in Antags.

In this situation, it'll only prove to be a momentary nuisance to an Antag.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Chada1

[Zyrus]

11 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Uhh.... no, it's not difficult to do shutters at all, you can do it in one click at the fire alarm and it covers the entire room instantly, it's actually easier than bolting, and it can't be used to lock in Antags.

In this situation, it'll only prove to be a momentary nuisance to an Antag.

Ok, so you admit you want to neuter the AI. Why?

[Chada1]

3 minutes ago, Zyrus said:

Ok, so you admit you want to neuter the AI. Why?

I don't want to neuter the AI, I want to make the AI less agonizing to play with. After the change goes live, it can be buffed in other ways that are less detrimental to the game. A good example again is the new ability of AIs to interface with mechs and drive them. That's actually a v. good and fun feature for everyone. ?

What can be classified as a 'neuter' goes as far and stops to its negative features that are actively detrimental to near everyone elses' enjoyment of a round, which includes bolting in Antags even on request of command/security.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Chada1

[Zyrus]

Just now, Chada1 said:

I don't want to neuter the AI, I want to make the AI less agonizing to play with. After the change goes live, it can be buffed in other ways that are less detrimental to the game. A good example again is the new ability of AIs to interface with mechs and drive them. That's actually a v. good and fun feature for everyone. ?

You don't want to, yet you're doing it, so that statement is moot.

It's neutering the AI, no matter how you try to paint it. If you're going to neuter it, at least be honest about it.

[Chada1]

8 minutes ago, Zyrus said:

You don't want to, yet you're doing it, so that statement is moot.

It's neutering the AI, no matter how you try to paint it. If you're going to neuter it, at least be honest about it.

The AI and 'borgs at their core shine at one primary thing which is providing utility to a round, there is positive and negative utility (utility that positvely impacts most players' enjoyment of a round and utility that negatively impacts most players enjoyment of a round), mech piloting is positive utility, unbolting airlocks is positive utility, unelectrifying airlocks is positive utility.

Bolting Airlocks is negative utility, electrifying airlocks is negative utility. Why are they negative? because they're used almost exclusively to shut down the Antags and/or shut down Crew and lead to the AI being used by Security/Command against said actors to a level that makes Antags have to actively plan their entire round on how they should avoid you (the AI), if removing bad features is neutering, then so be it. But I don't think it's neutering because the AI is still very effective, it's just not going to be as crap.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Chada1