Stationbound nerfs

[Zyrus]

So just ran into a game where I didn't have the ability to bolt or electrify doors as a purged AI. can non-default AIs be given bolting and electrifying abilities again?

[Hesphos]

8 hours ago, Chada1 said:

? but do note I edited my message a little which might make it a little more agreeable.

It didn't. You say a mech and I quote ''You can use a mech for any number of other things''

Yeah, any number of validhunting. Bolting doors can be used for 1 method of valid hunting. An AI remote controlled mech can explore a whole new realm of validhunting.

 

I just had a round where I asked the AI to bolt a door for me in security that led into security maintenance next to the HOS office because we had 2 seperate break ins aimed at the armoury that round. (I briefly forgot this whole AI cant bolt anymore issue because it's been a thing since time immemorial) 

I felt really sad for the AI when he said he could only pretend to bolt the doors by activating the door bolt lights. AI's are a joke now. Just a meme. I might be grasping at straws here but it really feels like this was the intention to nerf the AI into the ground after the failed removal poll and make playing AI so unappealing people would be clamoring for it to be removed after a few weeks.

[Snakebittenn]

2 minutes ago, Hesphos said:

It didn't. You say a mech and I quote ''You can use a mech for any number of other things''

Yeah, any number of validhunting. Bolting doors can be used for 1 method of valid hunting. An AI remote controlled mech can explore a whole new realm of validhunting.

 

I just had a round where I asked the AI to bolt a door for me in security that led into security maintenance next to the HOS office because we had 2 seperate break ins aimed at the armoury that round. (I briefly forgot this whole AI cant bolt anymore issue because it's been a thing since time immemorial) 

I felt really sad for the AI when he said he could only pretend to bolt the doors by activating the door bolt lights. AI's are a joke now. Just a meme. I might be grasping at straws here but it really feels like this was the intention to nerf the AI into the ground after the failed removal poll and make playing AI so unappealing people would be clamoring for it to be removed after a few weeks.

Couldn't you just put a Security barricade there yourself?

[Hesphos]

Just now, ParadoxSpace said:

Couldn't you just put a Security barricade there yourself?

Yes. Sadly the security barricade is worthless if the person trying to break in gave themselves full access. A single swipe can unlock the barricade so it can be moved again.

 

[Chada1]

20 minutes ago, Hesphos said:

I just had a round where I asked the AI to bolt a door for me in security that led into security maintenance next to the HOS office because we had 2 seperate break ins aimed at the armoury that round. (I briefly forgot this whole AI cant bolt anymore issue because it's been a thing since time immemorial) 

I felt really sad for the AI when he said he could only pretend to bolt the doors by activating the door bolt lights. AI's are a joke now. Just a meme. I might be grasping at straws here but it really feels like this was the intention to nerf the AI into the ground after the failed removal poll and make playing AI so unappealing people would be clamoring for it to be removed after a few weeks.

The solution to this is to adjust and stop using the AI to counter Antagonists. Security has to step up to the plate. The AI can still be v. helpful, just not like that. 

And I was one of the vocals in support of keeping the AI all throughout the 'Mapped out the AI' thread, so why would I want to get it removed? What I want is for it to stop being used to counter Antagonists. That's it.

You're doing a thing here that I already addressed and said would happen if we just added a delay. 

Quote

For a cultural shift you need either gradual adjustment (Which won't happen while the feature is still here in relatively the same shape) or abrupt removal. Just there being the ability for it to happen will end up with those who request it rn, continuing to request it.

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Chada1

[MattAtlas]

14 hours ago, Hesphos said:

I don't want to sound like Cathy Newman here but you are saying that the poll wasn't made by a person that wanted to get rid of the AI? The goal of the person making the original poll to ask about the AI removal was to have the AI removed because they thought it was the best thing for the server no doubt. Which is fine there isn't anything wrong with that, but to say otherwise and that's its baseless conjecture and demeaning is just silly.

I'm just trying to paint a picture here that I personally think that these AI nerfs are a bad thing. Lets take the robotics rework on mechs. Some things were removed but those same features were changed so we have a more interesting and modular mech system.

It feels to me that these AI changes are just simply taking out mechanics and then adding mechanics that are unrelated to eachother and infact make the core problem that the pro nerfers feel is a thing maybe even worse by giving the AI a mech to validhunt in.

I rather have to deal with bolted doors then a giant mech stomping me down. I will try to think up some ways that aren't reliant on alot of work to implement that hopefully makes sense to the supporters and opponents of the nerf. No sense in barking about changes without coming up with solutions myself.

Heres the problem: theres a difference between saying "You're using the poll results to nerf the AI", which is fine, and saying "You're using the poll results to nerf the AI and make it so unfun that it can only be removed", which is not

This nerf was the last possible recourse, I'm not even sure what half of the people here want if not the removal of bolting

Also, AIs can still be a huge pain in the ass simply by reporting locations, except it's security that has to do the work now, not sure how that makes it toothless or "just a meme"

Edited May 26, 2020 by MattAtlas

[armrha]

I respect you and your work, and appreciate the stuff you do for the game. I'm not just trying to be adversarial here. I've contributed almost nothing to this game beyond a handful of fun rounds (to me) and I acknowledge that and my perspective is probably not the standard here.

That said, I feel like your measurement of what is interesting or not is a very subjective one. That is not a bad thing; we all have subjective opinions on what makes the game fun or not, and a great way to suss that out if player polls. We had one about the AI in general, whether or not to remove the role entirely. It failed. As far as I know, this nerf did not have a poll or anything. At least I did not hear about it if so. I've personally never felt like my round has been ruined by the AI trying to stymie me. Even as a regular crewmember, the epic fight of chief engineer vs malf AI makes up many of my most treasured memories of the game, so this takes a big chunk off that.

I think it is unfortunate. It feels like the public didn't produce the outcome you wanted, so you tried to figure out a new way to fix the game to be the game you like. Maybe that's not what happened, even if it is that's not that bad, we all want the game to be better, just some parts of that are subjective and the only way we have to decide that is through majority, as flawed as it is.

I know a lot of rounds on Aurora play without an AI, but I feel like the AI is so central to the gameplay of SS13 that to nerf it so completely basically makes a different game, like Lifeweb or other variants. So many traitor items are designed to deal with the AI: Binary keys, law modules, the item that makes you invisible to AI cameras. Every door, airlock and APC has AI wires; now door AI wires are a little pointless in doors, what, are you going to do, stop them from blinking bolt lights at you?

Let's consider why AI exists. SS13 is a pastische of a variety of sci fi tropes. The AI is HAL-9000, though ideally a benign and helpful one in the non-adversarial game modes. A huge amount of futuristic sci fi has an AI component. In game terms, the AI gets the benefit of a mile high perspective on what is going on, but with much of the detail stripped out. A rogue AI can, on most servers, challenge the crew in ways that are far different from most antagonists. Not really practical here with the atmos nerfs and general attitude toward any simulation-based problem on Aurora, but plasma flooding is the classic one, or any other level of atmospheric mess. 

That's balanced with the fact that the AI have to consider ethical conundrums of various sorts with every action or risk being punished if they can't justify their actions after the fact. A basic responsibility of being a stationbound is a willingness to constantly consider the philosophy of your unusual position. This is in line with the science fiction roots by far. There's countless examples of malfunctioning or rogue computers venting compartments into space, filling rooms with dangerous gases, or even just bolting doors ('Open the pod bay doors, HAL. HAL, open the pod bay doors!'). I mentioned it before, but it seems exceptionally cruel that you give a player the absolute directive that they just have to prevent human harm, then keep them from doing anything to keep a human from harm as the monster closes in on their poor charge.

Anyway, that's just the root for the existence of the features that are basically on every SS13 server. And so many years of development built around that idea. It just seems massively shortsighted to rush this change through with next to no input from the playerbase. Let's get a poll. If most people agree it makes the game better, I'll begrudgingly admit that that's what the playerbase finds the most entertaining, If they don't, would you at least consider that perhaps it's too far? Sorry for so many words, but man, this really feels regressive to me. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by armrha

[Zyrus]

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

Also, AIs can still be a huge pain in the ass simply by reporting locations, except it's security that has to do the work now, not sure how that makes it toothless or "just a meme"

You can accomplish the same thing in a less efficient manner by having security man camera consoles and sweeping the station. Don't pretend this behavior is exclusive to AIs.

[MattAtlas]

11 minutes ago, Zyrus said:

You can accomplish the same thing in a less efficient manner by having security man camera consoles and sweeping the station. Don't pretend this behavior is exclusive to AIs.

I didn't say that? When did I actually say that? I'm replying to someone saying that the AI is useless, with which I'm telling you it's not

[Zyrus]

1 minute ago, MattAtlas said:

I didn't say that? When did I actually say that? I'm replying to someone saying that the AI is useless, with which I'm telling you it's not

You didn't, but there was an implication. I apologize for the mistake.

Anyway, my point stands.

[Scheveningen]

I'm of the opinion AI simultaneously needs balance changes and a requirement of a command whitelist. The AI has as much power over the station as the captain, but they function at the near bottom of the chain of command, which is the reverse of the captain. This sort of role requires an understanding of the general pecking order and the AI does not really have many safety nets for newer players to avoid doing poorly.

The AI is not a noob-friendly role, and in my opinion should be put into the command whitelist in addition to other balance changes. We sort of need people who we can trust to do well to start with playing as -- and especially roleplaying as -- AI. Borgs can, and already do, serve as a step-stool to understanding how synthetics interact with the station and with other remote control devices at sight range.

Balance should come first before the whitelisting, but I view it pretty much imperative that high-power, high-responsibility, high-roleplay requirement roles require a whitelist of some sort. The fact the AI has not been included in this for so long is merely a long-standing oversight.

[Tailson]

I've flip-flopped back and forth while reading this between righteous indignation and righteous agreement. The truth of the matter is that AIs are a difficult thing to balance based purely on the logic of knowledge = power and these guys can see everything. I agree that they have the ability to shut down antag gimmicks. That said; so does any other role. A gunshot to the head is perhaps more effective at stopping an antagonist than a bolted door, so some amount of restraint from the AI player is definitely expected.

THAT SAID I'm not entirely in favour of keeping bolting and shocking in, either. Bolting has problems which we all agree are there. Shocking it pants and should go away unless you're malf or whatever. That's a given.

I've always been in favour of the AI being tucked behind the command whitelist. It carries the same responsibility as a command member (make sure the round progresses for everyone) so I don't see why this wouldn't be common sense. This has been repeatedly shot down as an option so I'm not going to argue for it any longer.

Is it possible at all to assign abilities to a law card? Maybe when programming the laws, there are options for softlocking vs. hardlocking, shock vs. no shock,etc. This would give malf the abilities back (as all restrictions are removed, of course. Maybe make it a researched ability) and will give more power to purged and more aggressive lawsets (NT Aggressive and Quarantine spring to mind).

What if the bolt ability is replaced with a softbolt? The door turns red indicating that the door shouldn't be opened. Players can still left-click on the door to open it, but it won't respond to someone bumping up against it/walking into it, meaning they need to make a conscious decision to open the door against AI recommendation.

As it stands, removing these abilities will make regular AIs no less helpful than before and will remove that no-choice doorbolting thing, which is definitely a good move. However, not allowing purged, malf or aggressive AIs to bolt and shock will be detrimental, I think. If command decides that the AI needs to be more aggressive, the decision is their's whether they head down to the core and change the AI's behaviour themselves using the law cards.

As an aside, I love the mechs thing. Maybe we can get holo on the holodeck soon, too? Hardlight for hugs and lasertag? (Hardlight for public malf beatings?)

Obviously, everything I suggest will require coders and I don't know what level of shit the AI code is currently at (I assume 'catastrophic') so grain of salt time pls. I'm just an ideas guy.

Uh, so, TL;DR:

• Bolts and shock normally bad, agree
• Bolts and shock when malf or aggressive? Probably yes ok
• Maybe two types of bolt: "Please don't open" but click to open anyway; and proper bolts
• Lawset cards have different rules maybe?
• Vroom vroom mechs

Edited May 26, 2020 by Tailson

[GreenBoi]

Bolting isn't that useful in a typical round- you can already contain things with fire shutters, and if you need to slow a person down- just close and cut off the power to an airlock, they can't open the door unless they have a crowbar and switch to using it- which works as a slow, but not as an impenetrable barrier.

 

The main problem that's always arised from bolting is that there's no counterplay to it if you don't have tools. The only antagonists that can exit a bolted room without tools are both capable of actual teleportation that a crewmember is not normally able to do, so they don't count. If you get bolted- you can't emag out, because the emag will just break the door- the same applies to bruteforcing it because that also breaks the door. The only way through is by hacking, which forces you to always have three extra items on you if you ever want to survive an AI: wirecutters, a multitool, and a screwdriver.

 

As an antag, it's legitimately infuriating to even combat this- you have to first get insulated gloves, then  the tools and you also have to actually learn the wires- then you need to quickly unbolt the airlock before the AI can rebolt it or turn off the power to throw you off. The AI Control wire isn't as useful because you'd have to literally snip it from all airlocks in the general hallways and your place of crime. It's like a human trying to guess passwords, verses a basic bruteforce program- the latter is just infinitely faster unless you do incredibly unorthodox and impractical things just to get ready. Smashing cameras also doesn't work, because it actually tells people there's something suspicious in the area and hacking cameras isn't even the better pick because it still sends a camera alarm- defeating the entire purpose of not just smashing it normally.

 

10 hours ago, Hesphos said:

Yeah, any number of validhunting. Bolting doors can be used for 1 method of valid hunting. An AI remote controlled mech can explore a whole new realm of validhunting.

The difference between a normal AI, and a mech that people forget is that mechs are physical. There's an easier time seeing if they're validhunting, and they can be countered a lot easier; AIs sacrifice their inherent near-omnipotence to get physical- whereby they will likely be focused down. There's also probably the fact that the mech isn't designed for combat and moreso general-purpose/manipulation, like an android with service grippers.

 

Before, how would you counter an AI? Smash their cameras? Ok, they can bolt the doors you're going to, before you smash those cameras. Destroy their core? Good luck surviving the turrets. Any validhunter that tries to use the mech for normal chasing can easily be destroyed with a weapon- while also sacrificing everything else that made them so strong (universal dept comms, their vision, their lack of physical presence but digital supremacy).

[Chada1]

2 hours ago, Tailson said:

 

• Bolts and shock normally bad, agree
• Bolts and shock when malf or aggressive? Probably yes ok
• Maybe two types of bolt: "Please don't open" but click to open anyway; and proper bolts
• Lawset cards have different rules maybe?
• Vroom vroom mechs

#1-3 + #5 are in already or being planned actively, it's just 4 that's not. You can still unbolt an Airlock, you just can't bolt it, and you can still unelectrify an Airlock, you just can't electrify it.

#3, you just enable the bolt light, but I'm also trying to get Engi tape/inflatables in for all 'borg modules so you can instruct your borgos to tape up/seal danger zones in a way that doesn't harm Antagonists at all.

That + fire locks should be plenty.

#4 seems okay but IDK how easy to code at all.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

Inflatables are a negatory but we are getting Engi tape to all 'borg modules in some time. Inflatables have some balance concerns like being able to pop out like 9 in the span of 10 seconds.

[Scheveningen]

You can code a quick snowflake item that allow lesser related borg modules to just pop one down and that's all they get.

[Chada1]

23 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

You can code a quick snowflake item that allow lesser related borg modules to just pop one down and that's all they get.

That's surprisingly a v. good idea, but it'd have to be in a different PR. A lower capacity inflatable dispenser could be neat.

[Chada1]

Alrighty, I created an implementation of the inflatables for every module that is somewhat likely to be merged, it just might take a while.

You can see the changes Here.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

This can be locked and archived.