Full Chem Rework Feedback Thread

[Chada1]

PR HERE!

Hello, this is the continuation of the Medical chem renames, this time we're adding new effects to near everything. This is a co-op project between me and SadKermit who's MUCH BETTER at coding than me. Let's get to it then --

Welcome to Episode 3 of Chemistry Improvements, this time delving into the actual effects of drugs as opposed to names, descriptions and lore.

In this change, we hope to achieve three things. First of all, we’ve aimed to make chemicals have more impact to someone using them - being jabbed with a drug doesn’t simply fix one thing then you can run off while it’s still in your system, there will now be side-effects which bog you down whilst the drug does it’s job. Secondly, we aim to make there be actual choices involved in what drugs are used to treat a certain condition - there are now downsides to picking stronger drugs, meaning you’ll want to use the slower but safer drugs for minor injuries, and the stronger but slightly more detrimental drugs for severe injuries. And third of all, we aim to make some of the more unique chemicals just way more interesting in general.

These goals have been achieved by adding mild side-effects, overdose symptoms and contraindications to a large array of chemicals. The side-effects range from very minor effects, such as itching which can be countered with cetahydramine, to more severe effects, such as nausea which can be countered with ethylredoxrazine. The overdose symptoms range from minor symptoms, such as reduced effectiveness of the drug and vomiting, to more severe symptoms, such as total respiratory depression and seizures. The contraindications are mostly mild, ranging from more collateral damage to genetic damage.

As a note, Overdosing is now based upon volume in blood, but also requires a small amount of the drug to have metabolised first, this enables you to quickly dialysis someone if you OD them accidentally.  Chemical ODs & effects have been updated to be in-line with this. General medbot injections, rig injections, syringe injections, etc have been reduced to account for this as well.

There have also been some other misc. tweaks to chemicals, the introduction and reintroduction of some chemicals - a full list of changes will be below.

Having these side effects, overdoses and contraindications makes having to choose between chemicals a fair bit more interesting. Instead of always choosing dermaline because ‘Dermaline heals 12 burn damage and kelotane only heals 6, therefore dermaline is always better.’, you now need to weigh your options, as briefly described above. Kelotane treats burn damage slower, however there are no adverse symptoms; dermaline treats burn damage faster, however you have to deal with adverse symptoms; mixing dermaline and kelotane is now an option again, however you have to deal with a more dangerous symptom. It becomes a case of ‘Kelotane may be better for less severe burning as I won’t have to deal with the itching side effect, and there isn’t much burn damage to treat anyway. Dermaline, however, will treat it much faster, but I’ll have to deal with the itching side effect. Keloderm would treat it near-instantly, but I would be creating a larger issue by giving them genetic damage.’ There’s far more choice and decision making involved, instead of identifying the damage and then picking the correctly coloured chemical to deal with that damage type.

Need-To-Know-Ish Changes For Medical Players

Spoiler

Use Saline Plus in an IV drip instead of Iron/Copper/Sulphur pills. Set the transfer rate to 0.8u/tick.
Butazoline is a new drug that is the dermaline of brute treatment drugs.
Most drugs will overdose at 20 units now.
Ethylredoxrazine, cetahydramine and synaptizine treat most side-effects you will encounter. It isn’t important to know every side-effect and OD symptom of every drug, only how to treat the symptoms.
Do not mix mortaphenyl, oxycomorphine or alcohol - your patient will begin to suffocate. If you or they happen to mix any combination of these, you need to remove one of them from their body. 
Mixing bicaridine/butazoline and kelotane/dermaline is an option, but should be reserved for very severe cases due to the side-effect of genetic damage.
The longer alkysine is in one’s blood, the more likely they will develop a mental trauma. Alkysine also overdoses at 10 units now.

Need-To-Know-Ish Changes For Non-Medical Players

Spoiler

Do not drink alcoholic beverages if you have painkillers in your blood (you can tell if you have painkillers in your blood by the blurry screen and groggy flavour messages)
Combat stimulants require better management. Hyperzine is great at getting around quickly in a fight and harassing your opponent, but if you get injured with hyperzine in your system, you’ll be in a bad state very quickly. Synaptizine is also great, but mind how much you consume or you’ll end up incapacitated mid-fight.
If you’re injured severely, being filled up with chemical treatments will bog you down in the ICU until the effects have worn off. It’s no longer an in-and-out trip unless you opt for surgery. With that said, it shouldn’t slow you down for too long.
Chefs: Soy sauce is no longer made with sulphuric acid. The recipe for soy sauce is now 4 parts Soy Milk, 1 part Salt and a 5u Universal Enzyme catalyst. Make sure the enzyme goes in last to avoid making tofu. If you run out of salt, you can get some from chemistry and shouldn't encounter chemists refusing to dish out a chemical because it's too dangerous, which was often the case for sulphuric acid.

Alkysine and Cataleptinol actually heal the brain in different amounts now, instead of both healing ~1% brain activity / tick.
1u of Alkysine - 7.5% brain activity.
1u of Alkysine via drip at a 0.2u/t transfer rate - 10% brain activity.
1u of Cataleptinol -  5%
1u of cryo-cooled Cataleptinol - 10% brain activity.

Misc. Changes:

Spoiler

The default overdose has been changed from 30 units to 20 units. I felt this change would be beneficial as it’s very difficult for you to overdose someone with 30 units of a drug, even two doctors who are poorly communicating would struggle to do that. 20 units make it easier for two poorly communicating doctors to make a mistake and overdose a drug, though the bar is still high enough that it shouldn’t be too frequent.
We created a new chemical effect, itching, which will present itself as a side-effect for some chemicals. Cetahydramine has been given anti-itching properties to counter this. This effect is fairly non-disruptive, relying on flavour messages, and is also easily countered with a drug that Medical is equipped with at round start
Brute first-aid kits contain 1 less gauze which has been replaced with 2 bicaridine pills, and has also had a health analyser added. This makes the brute first-aid kit slightly more similar in the layout of other first-aid kits which usually contain a chemical alongside the topical treatments for the specific damage type and a health scanner.
Some general tweaks to the presentation of code - capitalising uncapitalised chemicals - I've never understood why some chemicals are capitalised when some are not, typo correcting, replacing the old method of span typing with the more appreciated method.

Medical Chemical Changes

Spoiler

 

Inaprovaline:

Spoiler

Inaprovaline now overdoses at 20 units, reduced from 60 units.
Inaprovaline overdoses results in the following symptoms:
Chest pain (in the form of flavour messages and applying halloss)

Bicaridine:

Spoiler

Bicaridine overdoses results in the following symptoms:
Nausea (in the form of dizziness)
Malnutrition and Dehydration.
Bicaridine overdoses exceeding 30 units have a chance of treating arterial bleeding.
Bicaridine is contraindicated (should not be mixed) with butazoline. Having both of these drugs in your body will result in genetic damage, itching, dehydration.

Butazoline: (New Drug - the dermaline of brute medications)

Spoiler

Butazoline is the dermaline of brute medications, treating brute damage quicker than bicaridine, however cannot be overdosed to treat arterial bleeding and also has side effects.
Butazoline overdoses at 15 units.
Butazoline’s side effects include: Itching, slow dehydration.
Butazoline is contraindicated (should not be mixed) with bicaridine. Having both of these drugs in your body will result in genetic damage, itching, dehydration.
Butazoline's recipe is: 1 part Bicaridine, 1 part Aluminium, 1 part Hydrochloric Acid - resulting in 3 units.

Kelotane:

Spoiler

Kelotane is contraindicated (should not be mixed) with dermaline. Having both of these drugs in your body will result in genetic damage, itching, dehydration.

Kelotane now causes disfigurement in ODs, due to severe swelling and blisters. You will have to get surgery to repair it if you OD. (Unless it was intentional to disguise yourself)

Dermaline:

Spoiler

Dermaline is contraindicated (should not be mixed) with kelotane. Having both of these drugs in your body will result in genetic damage, itching, dehydration.

Dylovene:

Spoiler

Dylovene now overdoses at the default 20 units.
Dylovene overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Severe malnutrition, severe dehydration.

Dexalin/Dexalin Plus:

Spoiler

Dexalin overdoses are now extra toxic to vaurcae.

Tricordrazine:

Spoiler

Tricordrazine now overdoses are the default 20 units.
Tricordrazine overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Nausea (in the form of dizziness)

Perconol:

Spoiler

Perconol now overdoses at the default 20 units, reduced from 60 units.

Mortaphenyl:

Spoiler

Mortaphenyl’s side effects include: blurry vision, confusion (presenting as stumbling in the wrong direction), accompanied with messages about grogginess.
Mortaphenyl is contraindicated with oxycomorphine and alcoholic beverages.
Having a BAC of >=0.03 will result in vomiting and hallucinations.
Having a BAC of >=0.08 will result in respiratory depression (presenting as suffocating)
Having both oxycomorphine and mortaphenyl in your system will immediately overdose you.
Mortaphenyl overdoses now results in the additional symptoms of: Respiratory depression (presenting as suffocating), vomiting.

Oxycomorphine:

Spoiler

Oxycomorphine will now appear on medical scans, as opposed to being registered as an unknown substance.
Oxycomorphine’s side effects include: blurry vision, confusion (presenting as stumbling in the wrong direction), accompanied with messages about grogginess.
Oxycomorphine is contraindicated with mortaphenyl and alcoholic beverages.
Having a BAC of >=0.02 will result in vomiting and hallucinations.
Having a BAC of >=0.04 will result in respiratory depression (presenting as suffocating)
Having both oxycomorphine and mortaphenyl in your system will immediately overdose you.
Oxycomorphine overdoses now results in the additional symptoms of: Respiratory depression (presenting as suffocating), vomiting.

Synaptizine:

Spoiler

Synaptizine now overdoses at 10 units.
Synaptizine overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Seizures (presenting as distortion of taste/smell through flavour messages, twitching, then a full blown seizure [via paralysis and jittering]). 
Synaptizine will not treat paralysis when overdoses to prevent it from self-treating seizures, which utilise paralysis.

Alkysine:

Spoiler

Alkysine now overdoses at 10 units.
Alkysine’s side effects include: nausea (presenting as dizziness), and a low chance of mild traumas (specifically non-disruptive ones).
Alkysine overdoses result in the following symptoms: Migraines via flavour messages, increased chance of mild and severe traumas (specifically the fun and more accurate ones)

Cataleptinol:

Spoiler

Cataleptinol’s side effects include: nausea (presenting as dizziness).
Cataleptinol overdoses result in the following symptoms: chance of mild and severe traumas (specifically the fun and more accurate ones), migraines via flavour messages.

Hyperzine:

Spoiler

Hyperzine overdoses now result in the following symptoms: Malnutrition, severe tachycardia (severely elevated pulse), accompanied with flavour messages, violent twitching/convulsions (presenting as custom emote, applied brute damage and applied halloss)
Hyperzine is contraindicated (should not be taken) with adrenaline doses over 5 units. Having both hyperzine and adrenaline in your body will send you straight to an overdose.

Hyronaline:

Spoiler

Hyronaline overdosing now results in the following symptoms: Contusions/Bruising (presenting as applied minor brute damage) to the same degree as Arithrazine.

Arithrazine:

Spoiler

Arithrazine now has the following additional side-effects: Itching.
Arithrazine overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Increased rate of contusions/bruising.

Thetamycin:

Spoiler

Thetamycin overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Nausea (presenting as dizziness)

Asinodryl:

Spoiler

Asinodryl will now appear on medical scans as opposed to be registered as an unknown substance.

Cetahydramine:

Spoiler

Cetahydramine has been given anti-itching properties to counter side-effects of certain drugs.

Leporazine:

Spoiler

Leporazine overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Hypothermia, accompanied with flavour messages and shivering emotes.
Leporazine will no longer stabilise body temperature when overdosing to prevent it self-treating the hypothermia caused by an OD.

All Psychiatric Medications (not including Neurapan) + Truth Serum/Paxazide:

Spoiler

Overdosing on psychiatric medications or truth serum will resulting in the following symptoms: Vomiting.

Neurapan:

Spoiler

Neurapan has been totally overhauled and disassociated from Risperidone. It is now an incredibly advanced, expensive, next-generation psychiatric medication that eliminates stress, though with some curious drawbacks that can be abused recreationally. Lore for this drug is still pending approval.
Neurapan now overdoses at 10 units.
Neurapan overdoses will result in the following symptoms: Pacification, blurred vision and mental numbing (via flavour messages). If oxycomorphine is present in your blood when overdosing, you will experience the following, additional symptoms: Drowsiness, nausea (presenting as dizziness), deafness, total mental numbing (via flavour messages).

Pulmodeiectionem:

Spoiler

Ingesting pulmodeiectionem will result in you coughing up the pulmodeiectionem.
Injecting pulmodeiectionem will result in toxins.
The frequency at which you cough after inhaling pulmodeiectionem has been reduced from 75% to 50% to prevent chatbox spam.

Saline Plus:

Spoiler

Saline Plus has been renamed from Saline and is the new chief blood restorative medication, replacing iron, sulphur and copper which have been reduced in their effectiveness.
Saline Plus has no effect when inhaled or ingested.
Saline Plus overdoses at 5 units and metabolises 1 unit/tick - the drug is designed to be administered via an IV drip at a medium transfer rate.
Saline Plus replenishes thirst and will restore blood to the same degree iron/copper/sulphur formerly did.
Saline Plus overdoses result in the following symptoms: Confusion (presenting as stumbling about), jittering, twitching.
Saline Plus does not restore blood levels when overdosed, so find a good transfer rate.

Iron/Copper/Sulphur:

Spoiler

Iron/Copper/Sulphur have had their effectiveness reduced by 50%. Saline Plus is now the go-to blood restoring chemical. The minerals are simply supplements now.
Iron/Copper/Sulphur will now appear on medical scans as opposed to being registered as unknown substances.

Carbon:

Spoiler

Carbon will now appear on medical scans as opposed to being registered as an unknown substance.

Adrenaline:

Spoiler

Adrenaline has no effect when inhaled or ingested.

RMT Supplement:

Spoiler

RMT Supplement overdoses result in the following symptoms: Muscle pain (presenting only as flavour messages).

Soporific/Polysomnine:

Spoiler

Soporific/Polysomnine will now appear on medical scans as opposed to being registered as an unknown substance.

Non-Medical Chemical Changes

Cardox:

Spoiler

Cardox will now appear on medical scans as opposed to being registered as an unknown substance.

Spectrocybin:

Spoiler

Spectrocybin has had a lot of work done to it so there is clear progression between levels of spookiness. Find a ghost mushroom in the warehouse/maintenance and enjoy the trip. Lore for the drug is pending approval.
Spectrocybin’s toxicity was reduced from 8 toxins/unit to 5 toxins/unit so your liver isn’t failing before you’ve finished tripping on the drug.
Spectrocybin’s metabolism was reduced from 0.2 units/tick to 0.1 units/tick to prolong each stage of the drug.

Soy Sauce:

Spoiler

Soy sauce is no longer made with sulphuric acid. The recipe for soy sauce is now 4 parts Soy Milk, 1 part Salt and a 5u Universal Enzyme catalyst. Make sure the enzyme goes in last to avoid making tofu. If you run out of salt, you can get some from chemistry and shouldn't encounter chemists refusing to dish out a chemical because it's too dangerous, which was often the case for sulphuric acid.

 

Impedrezene:

Spoiler

Impedrezene is mostly unchanged, but now is in general more disorienting for anyone who has it in their system. Expect dizzyness, nausea and the like.

Mercury:

Spoiler

Mercury is now extremely dangerous, it's been entirely reworked. It also can enter the body by splash. It's best used to poison via smothering with a rag, but splashing is also a way to do it. Think of it as Dextrotoxin. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Chada1
Updated afew things. Mercury poisoning, Kelotane disfigurement, Synaptizine OD.

[Cnaym]

Exactly what I was hoping for, this makes medical a lot more interesting without making it a lot more difficult. Pretty clear that you two put a heavy focus on having more communication and roleplay in a department that for most times relied on solo heroes knowing every niche mechanic.

Sadkermit honored me with the code and it seems incredible robust, loved the bits of hidden stuff that I won't spoil here, but one premade hypospray that can spawn gave me a good laugh.

Smart move to have mixing things that would result in powergaming knock on your genetics. You can use it in an emergency but you do not want to use it to far away from the medbay this way. Another risk / reward mechanic instead of a clear route for play to win.

Two small things that I would change, but are not required from my side to enjoy this.

Vaurca should get poison damage from any form of dex, just straight up, adding an oxygen chemical to their bloodstream should have them knocking on deaths door. Increased poison from overdose makes little sense, since they get a straight multiplier on all toxin damage anyway. They die from a single slime attack most of the times, even when rushed to the medbay by a paramedic.

Alkaysine and other surgery replacing things could do with a movement check which either reduces or nulifies their efficiency, so they stay in the medbay instead of some EMTs belt. Don't get me wrong, the lower OD is already a big step in the right direction and I love the new OD effects on the chems, but I fear that our hardsuit shotgun doctors will care little for the patients flavor text messages

All in all amazing work though. Hope it makes it in rather sooner than later. There is a lot of stuff that will not only split the doctor from the intern, but also the intern from the cargo tech  

[Chada1]

Thank you for the post @Cnaym

And the PR is up as of now. See it at the top of the OP.

[WickedCybs]

I like the idea here. Will note a concern though. Synaptizine overdosing at five units gives me a thought that we're going to see a lot of unintentional seizures. The default transfer rate for everything is always ten to my knowledge? It is something easily learned with time though I can see it tripping up new players as they come and go.

Little else to add for now on my part but I may post again eventually. Got a headache.

 

[Peppermint]

To echo the above, it'll also make combat injectors on RIGs a mess as you can't drop the dosage below 10(?). Akylsine also seems a little too heavily nerfed, but the side-effects in general seem super cool.

[MattAtlas]

I forget if overdoses are currently based on metabolized amout or amount in the person. If it's the former, it should be changed.

[ThelonTV]

Has every OD cap been lowered? The option to buy a random chem beaker as antag should be more viable now! All I remember was buying that once or twice, only to realize, that the dosage was barely enough to get someone to OD on it... which was the only negative effect of the drug at the time

[kermit]

Apologies in advance for the slow reply, been a mite busy today. 

Okie, let's address the concerns.

 

16 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

Will note a concern though. Synaptizine overdosing at five units gives me a thought that we're going to see a lot of unintentional seizures. The default transfer rate for everything is always ten to my knowledge?

14 hours ago, Lemei said:

To echo the above, it'll also make combat injectors on RIGs a mess as you can't drop the dosage below 10(?). 

Would reducing the transfer rate of the chemical injector RIG modules to five units a go solve this issue, allowing more precise measurements of drugs to be administered?

My problem with having synaptizine overdose at anything higher than 5 units is that it takes a very long while to metabolise the drug - a minute and a half roughly per unit of synaptizine, ten units therefore being an entire quarter of an hour. You'd be taking the drug and then, as soon as you forgot you've taken it, you're experiencing the overdose symptoms. One option would be to increase the metabolisation rate, though the option I've suggested is to simply reduce the transfer rate of the RIG chemical injectors, after all most of the time you'll only need five units of a drug, and there's nothing stopping you from pushing 5 units more if it's needed.

 

14 hours ago, Lemei said:

Akylsine also seems a little too heavily nerfed, but the side-effects in general seem super cool.

Regarding alkysine, the drug itself is too frequently misused by folk in Medical. The drug requires blood oxygenation levels to be above 85% oxygenation, yet people usually inject the chemical as soon as a patient comes in asystole (when blood oxygenation would be rock bottom at ~20%). The drug is also very strong (which won't be changing, unless you OD it), 5 units is more than enough usually, and yet most people hammer in 10 to 15 units - whether they're underestimating it's strength or just making sure the alkysine remains in the blood long enough, I'm unsure - but this'll aim to reduce the frequency of events like this, making people actually consider when to administer alkysine and hopefully ensuring people only administer it in the right circumstances. If the changes have their desired effect, it'll also reduce the burden on chemists to have to stock 3 bloody bottles of a chemical that'll only have ~20 units dished out per shift. Of course there will be accidents where doctors are either unaware of the change or, just out of habit, administer large doses of the drug, but with how pronounced the side-effects may be, people'll gradually come to realise that it's not a safe drug to hammer in willy-nilly. 

Was there anything in particular you feel nerfs alkysine to a too-high degree - I'm guessing the traumas? This was largely a suggestion from someone else that I quite liked and therefore implemented as it gives psychiatrists something mechanical to deal with - people kind of forgot about them when traumas were binned which was sad. I've hand-picked only traumas that aren't too shit for someone to get (no paralysis or split-personality or anything), so only the RP conducive traumas should be rolled.

 

14 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

I forget if overdoses are currently based on metabolized amout or amount in the person. If it's the former, it should be changed.

Overdoses are currently based on how much has been metabolised, though overdoses based on the volume of a chemical in the blood sounds cool. I'll see about working on that . ?

[MalMalumam]

>Regarding alkysine, the drug itself is too frequently misused by folk in Medical. The drug requires blood oxygenation levels to be above 85% oxygenation, yet people usually inject the chemical as soon as a patient comes in asystole (when blood oxygenation would be rock bottom at ~20%). The drug is also very strong (which won't be changing, unless you OD it), 5 units is more than enough usually, and yet most people hammer in 10 to 15 units - whether they're underestimating it's strength or just making sure the alkysine remains in the blood long enough, I'm unsure - but this'll aim to reduce the frequency of events like this, making people actually consider when to administer alkysine and hopefully ensuring people only administer it in the right circumstances. If the changes have their desired effect, it'll also reduce the burden on chemists to have to stock 3 bloody bottles of a chemical that'll only have ~20 units dished out per shift. Of course there will be accidents where doctors are either unaware of the change or, just out of habit, administer large doses of the drug, but with how pronounced the side-effects may be, people'll gradually come to realise that it's not a safe drug to hammer in willy-nilly.

Part of this is... well, lack of knowledge.

I literally didn't even know that alkysine required blood oxygenation until I bothered to look it up on the Guide to Chemistry (it's not in the Guide to Medical). Nor did I know that it is very powerful per unit (30 damage per unit! Only 3 units required per patient, in worst case scenarios.)

Fortunately, dexalin can help alkysine work, so that's something I learned just now.

[Seeli]

Awesome changes, makes me want to get back into medical.

It's just the OD for Inaprovaline, Dylovene and Tricordrazine that seem painfully low, though there is no telling how it will play out in-game and at least the side effects are manageable. They were basic, beginner level drugs & are pretty readily available. Two of them did not even have an OD previously, so of the changes these are the only ones that worry me. 30 or 40 would be far more forgiving (if only for Dylo and/or Tricord), especially since all of the changes will probably take a lot of adjustment already.

[Peppermint]

My concern is the traumas, yes.

They weren't fun. I'm sorry, but they really weren't and given the even more severe lack of psyches, I imagine they'll just be worse. Especially as the fun ones (imaginary friend / split personality ) aren't properly implemented/functioning.  I suppose we'll see though. I've not played medical all too much recently so I'm unaware of the meta has shifted, but either way, drug interactions and side-effects have been a big want for a while; I'm excited!

[Chada1]

34 minutes ago, Lemei said:

My concern is the traumas, yes.

They weren't fun. I'm sorry, but they really weren't and given the even more severe lack of psyches, I imagine they'll just be worse. Especially as the fun ones (imaginary friend / split personality ) aren't properly implemented/functioning.  I suppose we'll see though. I've not played medical all too much recently so I'm unaware of the meta has shifted, but either way, drug interactions and side-effects have been a big want for a while; I'm excited!

Wooorst case scenario we test the traumas out and we tweak them to be fun/remove them if we can't. The worst ones are already excluded from the available list for it because we're not even going to try to fix those.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

1 hour ago, Seeli said:

Awesome changes, makes me want to get back into medical.

It's just the OD for Inaprovaline, Dylovene and Tricordrazine that seem painfully low, though there is no telling how it will play out in-game and at least the side effects are manageable. They were basic, beginner level drugs & are pretty readily available. Two of them did not even have an OD previously, so of the changes these are the only ones that worry me. 30 or 40 would be far more forgiving (if only for Dylo and/or Tricord), especially since all of the changes will probably take a lot of adjustment already.

This'd be true, but remember that the ODs for those drugs aren't actually very severe, it's not like they'll kill you. They'll cause adverse reactions like itching and chest pain, malnutrition and dehydration. These are faaar from lethal if you mess up, they don't even really hurt you, just better avoided.

All in all, it's p. much just gonna make people need to go eat at the kitchen, drink water, and probably afew chest pain messages and a bit of halloss. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Chada1

[Roostercat]

I also think the OD for tricord should either be removed or raised to 40-60. The main reasons for this is that A, tricord is very VERY slow and typically means people will inject a shitload regardless, and B, medibots. Medibots inject 15u at a time and in the cases there are 2 in the medbay lobby, people with minor bruising would be immediately OD’d.

[WickedCybs]

Reducing the transfer rate is probably a fine idea, at least for the combat/advanced suit injectors as those carry the more specialist chemicals. My other thought earlier was that if you were to transfer the reagents in a bottle to a hypospray it would typically be done in an increment of 10 unless manually set to five. If people begin overdosing a ton when this is tested/merged I would wonder if bottles specifically from the chemistry machines could have their default transfer rates reduced

Edited August 18, 2020 by WickedCybs
seems I had some extra empty space

[kermit]

7 hours ago, Roostercat said:

I also think the OD for tricord should either be removed or raised to 40-60. The main reasons for this is that A, tricord is very VERY slow and typically means people will inject a shitload regardless, and B, medibots. Medibots inject 15u at a time and in the cases there are 2 in the medbay lobby, people with minor bruising would be immediately OD’d.

How does increasing the overdose threshold to 30 units sound? It's enough such that if two doctors administer hypospray-fulls of tricordrazine, there will be no overdose. It can be raised to 40 units, but then that's enough for 3 doctors to blindly administer full hyposprays of tricordrazine, which is what this change is aimed to prevent - ensuring doctors are communicating more. There should be more "Hey, I'm administering 10 units of [drug] now." to make sure no other doctors also give a large amount of a drug.

And regarding the Medibots, their transfer rate can be lowered to 10 units - how does this sound? This is low enough to avoid Medibots overdosing someone (unless you've got more than 3 in a room), and also means tricordrazine won't linger in someone's system for so long. You mentioned tricordrazine is slow to metabolise - which it is - so ten units is generally plenty and will last a while, no doubt doctors will top it up with another ten units upon someone entering the GTR which is fine (more so with tricordrazine's overdose threshold being increased to 30u).

The tricordrazine overdose itself is also incredibly minor and non-debilitating, so even if you do overdose on the chemical, it will be relatively minor.

Do these alterations come together to alleviate your concerns?

 

1 hour ago, WickedCybs said:

Reducing the transfer rate is probably a fine idea, at least for the combat/advanced suit injectors as those carry the more specialist chemicals. My other thought earlier was that if you were to transfer the reagents in a bottle to a hypospray it would typically be done in an increment of 10 unless manually set to five. If people begin overdosing a ton when this is tested/merged I would wonder if bottles specifically from the chemistry machines could have their default transfer rates reduced.

 

I can set the default transfer rate of bottles to 5 units to allow for more precise measurements of chemicals without people having to go through every bottle on your belt to change transfer rates to 5u. People can, of course, still raise this to 10 or 15 units if they wish to. 

[Chada1]

I'd also like to say that it's not a big deal if someone is OD'd on tricord, it just causes a little dizzyness. Inaprov/Dylo/Tricords overdoses are all just tiny inconveniences vs any actual harm, so being OD'd on them isn't actually a big deal, just a thing doctors should try to avoid doing.

[WickedCybs]

1 hour ago, SadKermit said:

I can set the default transfer rate of bottles to 5 units to allow for more precise measurements of chemicals without people having to go through every bottle on your belt to change transfer rates to 5u. People can, of course, still raise this to 10 or 15 units if they wish to. 

Sounds like quite the fine change to me. Will post again should anything else come to mind. Have been taking a break from medical but I will try a few rounds whenever this is merged to provide better feedback.

[Chada1]

As of now, the PR and thread have been updated for the new stuff. Alkyzine and Caleptinol now do a similar thing but to different degrees (See them in the need-to-know section), injections in general start lower across the board, Impedrezene is more disorienting to metabolize, and overdoses now work significantly differently, see in the top-middle of the OP.

 

[Roostercat]

5 hours ago, SadKermit said:

How does increasing the overdose threshold to 30 units sound? It's enough such that if two doctors administer hypospray-fulls of tricordrazine, there will be no overdose. It can be raised to 40 units, but then that's enough for 3 doctors to blindly administer full hyposprays of tricordrazine, which is what this change is aimed to prevent - ensuring doctors are communicating more. There should be more "Hey, I'm administering 10 units of [drug] now." to make sure no other doctors also give a large amount of a drug.

And regarding the Medibots, their transfer rate can be lowered to 10 units - how does this sound? This is low enough to avoid Medibots overdosing someone (unless you've got more than 3 in a room), and also means tricordrazine won't linger in someone's system for so long. You mentioned tricordrazine is slow to metabolise - which it is - so ten units is generally plenty and will last a while, no doubt doctors will top it up with another ten units upon someone entering the GTR which is fine (more so with tricordrazine's overdose threshold being increased to 30u).

The tricordrazine overdose itself is also incredibly minor and non-debilitating, so even if you do overdose on the chemical, it will be relatively minor.

Do these alterations come together to alleviate your concerns?

 

I can set the default transfer rate of bottles to 5 units to allow for more precise measurements of chemicals without people having to go through every bottle on your belt to change transfer rates to 5u. People can, of course, still raise this to 10 or 15 units if they wish to. 

Those pretty much solves my grievances yeah, thanks!

[Seeli]

19 hours ago, Chada1 said:

This'd be true, but remember that the ODs for those drugs aren't actually very severe, it's not like they'll kill you. They'll cause adverse reactions like itching and chest pain, malnutrition and dehydration. These are faaar from lethal if you mess up, they don't even really hurt you, just better avoided.

All in all, it's p. much just gonna make people need to go eat at the kitchen, drink water, and probably afew chest pain messages and a bit of halloss. 

Yeah! I noticed that, which is a relief, except for the pain. That is a little concerning, especially as it can be damaging and worsen people's condition. It's probably just a case of wait and see how severe it is, how badly accidental overdoses of these basic chems effect survival. Thanks for the reply! :3

[Chada1]

Another update to the PR/OP.

Kelotane now causes disfigurement on OD from swelling and blisters. This means you can intentionally disfigure yourself as an Antag if you need to go incognito, it also means however that if you don't, you'll need to get surgery to repair your face/skin/etc.

Mercury is now a poison. You can splash people with it, or use a rag drenched in it to smother someone. It's v. comparable to dextrotoxin.

Synaptizine now ODs with 10u in your system, and requires a 1u metabolized for it to start.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Chada1

[TrainTN]

I like the changes proposed here. More nuance to medicines, more risks, more judgment calls to make, it sounds like it'd make Medical more engaging and exciting to play. I always thought it was a little silly that the same drug could be used for everything from papercuts to dismemberment, and there was never reason to use Kelotane and Dexalin when Dermaline and Dexalin Plus exist. Side-effects are also interesting, potent medicines having stronger side-effects as drawbacks sounds fair, and I also appreciate giving new uses to pre-existing medicines in treating those side-effects. Overall I think this is a great rework that adds more mechanics to test Medical's problem-solving skills without making medicine arbitrarily harder to use.

I also approve of making it easier to poison people to death with dangerous chemicals, I'd love to see antags utilize poison as a weapon more. Changing soy sauce's recipe to something sane is also appreciated.

My only concern is that if/when these changes are implemented, the relevant guides on the wiki are updated in a timely fashion.

[Chada1]

As of now this is set to awaiting merge, it needs to 'Merge conflict' tag removed and one final vetting from a maintainer, and then it'll likely be merged.

14 hours ago, TrainTN said:

My only concern is that if/when these changes are implemented, the relevant guides on the wiki are updated in a timely fashion.

TYVM for the feedback and I'm going to try to get a hasty update on the wiki within the same day as the PR is merged, but it'll likely be awhile until the full chem guide is overhauled to make seeing the effects visually appealing, instead I'm going to just make sure all of the information is there, in an appealing way or not, I know a wiki maintainer is working on a overhaul of the Chem guide, so it'll hopefully tide over medical (and ensure they have the information available to them) until then.

[Chada1]

I would like to state that I'm in the process of updating the wiki page as we speak with the new chem effects and changes, for the time being, reference this thread for your ingame play, it's near fully up to date.

I'll post again when the wiki page is updated.