2 dismissals Remove stasis beds

[Desven]

In TG, stasis beds have a purpose: you will be killed or have a near death experience minutes after the round starts. So, as a doctor, you want to ensure you have the most gamer tools available for when the bodies start to pile up.

But even there, in most maps, stasis beds aren't at round start. It's something you craft, usually after stealing a bunch of materials because science would rather make some wacky bombs or something.

They aren't necessary on Aurora. I don't know why they were even ported, but I didn't mind them as much when they were something optional science could do. Now, you just have two of them right off the bat. I'm glad surgery was removed from stasis beds, but this isn't enough, in my opinion: they should be removed from the code.

I would rather use sleepers, stasis bags, or keep players alive using a cocktail of drugs. It's more rewarding and it fits more at our gameplay. Aurora isn't deadly anymore. I don't think this is bad, but I wish medical was made a bit harder, and removing stasis beds would be the first step.

I don't think stasis beds should remain as a science upgrade because science upgrades are futile: they get reset after every round. This is more of a problem with how science works on SS13, but I digress. The beds themselves are really OP.

Maybe I could see them work if they did as in other servers, were they halt metabolization and thus you don't get the benefits of chemicals. But even there, they're there to stop you from kicking the bucket. Sure, it's the future and all, but our chemicals are already more than capable of salvaging some really crazy scenarios. In fact, most meds don't really have any bad side effects apart from some very minor ones.

Simply put, I'm unhappy with how stasis beds change the medical meta. I know it gives people a reason to use the ICU, but I don't think that's enough of a justification.

[GeneralCamo]

We've always had stasis beds. They're known as "sleepers" and are placed right next to the body scanners. The addition of seperate stasis beds just seems redundant next to them.

[MrGodZilla]

I'm fine with the removal of the stasis bed in medical, at least. Like GeneralCamo states, it's redundant at this point. As for making medical more difficult, I would not mind medical becoming harder, I don't know if this will help because I think the stasis bed was overhyped anyway but it's not hard to optimize medical with the appropriate personnel. I think it'd be cool if the meta was shaked up a bit.

[Sheeplets]

Sleepers and stasis beds both have an identical stasis factor, 10x, which was nerfed down from their original 15x to bring them both in line.

The beds serve a purpose of letting you actively treat someone and monitor them from a room over with your HUD while still benefiting from that stasis. For example, they allow you to restore lost blood with IVs while they run. Sleepers have infinite medications in them, monitor vitals, perform dialysis, and pump stomachs at the cost of not letting you handle your patient directly without taking them outside first. Stasis bags have the same caveat while being twice as potent to begin with (20x) and highly portable at the expense of rapidly degrading over time. I think they all serve their own niche purposes while not totally overshadowing one another. There's absolutely some room to tweak things, as with anything else, and I'll admit the numbers probably aren't perfect.

24 minutes ago, Desven said:

I wish medical was made a bit harder, and removing stasis beds would be the first step.

As for this point, I wholeheartedly disagree with your line of thinking and see absolutely no benefit that could come to anyone by making things more difficult just because you think the department is too easy.

[TrainTN]

44 minutes ago, Desven said:

I would rather use sleepers, stasis bags, or keep players alive using a cocktail of drugs. It's more rewarding and it fits more at our gameplay. Aurora isn't deadly anymore. I don't think this is bad, but I wish medical was made a bit harder, and removing stasis beds would be the first step.

Agreed. Aurora is not deadly enough to warrant so many methods of keeping people alive. Frankly I wouldn't mind if it was more lethal; it's high-roleplay but my character can take 5 bullets to the brain and be fine 15 minutes later, I've never been able to get over that. I've also had experiences of being critically injured but unable to be helped so I'd sit trapped in a room dying for 10 to 15 minutes straight and all I could think was "Man, I wish I was dying faster, this is really boring." It's a bit hard for me to take the consequences of violence seriously when I feel like it's so easily undone. But I'm on a tangent.

Medical has enough tools to work with. It was fine before stasis beds, it'll be fine without. I played before stasis beds and stabilizer harnesses and oxygen tanks on IV stands were a thing and things weren't that hard back then either. Even what Medical has doesn't seem to get used that much. I rarely see patients escorted into sleepers outside of poisonings, and stasis bags I see only once in a while. And is there a reason no one uses the cryotubes? Are they broken, or something else I don't know about? I thought those were the "this guy is extremely screwed, shove 'em in to buy time to think" option that stasis beds are now.

[Roostercat]

I very much disagree with the line of thinking that we should be removing things in medical with the pure reason of making the department more difficult. It isn't the easiest to play as is, despite what some like to think, and making it more difficult will not make it any more interesting or fun to play, it will just make it all the more tedious. -1

[Girdio]

As pointed out by Rooster, medical itself is already difficult for people to get into. I've always wanted to get into medical throughout my years of SS13 experience, but it's never been something I've been able to simply because the complexity, no matter what server. Is it difficult for someone who's been in medical for a few months? Probably not. But for someone new to medical, it's a daunting experience.  Knowing that it has become more difficult, it's going to be seen as too difficult for some people.

I guess something important I'm also wondering is, who would the change benefit? It seems that this change would only be benefiting medical players who are tired of the routine, while hurting the rest. I feel like it wouldn't be adding any roleplay advantages (I could be wrong), and is just there because it seems too easy for you.

Personally I think if you're finding a department too easy, that may be a good excuse to try out other departments and learn new mechanics. I don't mean that as in "you should play something else instead of changing everything!", but instead I feel that certain departments lose their glitter after playing them too long and a perspective shift can be helpful.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Girdio

[wowzewow]

Stasis beds are from /tg/. We use Baymed. I think it's safe to say that it's unbalanced, for the fact that stasis beds are used for completely different codebases.

From what I've gleaned :

Stasis beds...

- take away the role of sleepers by providing the exact same stasis effect (and by extension, stasis *bags*)
(Infinite chems from sleepers are essentially a non-issue once a single chemist is onboard anyway.)

- take away the role of cryotubes for critical patient chemical injection...

- and (formerly) operating tables. They were so good, ORs were literally abandoned in favor of stasis beds.
There was an emergency patch simply just to rectify this issue.

They have nearly outclassed every other piece of machinery in medical.

They don't belong in this codebase because it's made for an entirely different medical system.

[Gem]

i don't really see how stasis beds are outlandish. they fill their own niche.

stasis beds:

• x10 stasis.
• you can receive blood and be injected manually.
• notes: good for injecting other chemicals or restoring blood.

stasis bags:

• x20 stasis (iirc).
• notes: good for transporting.

sleepers:

• x10 stasis.
• lets you inject inaprovaline, dylovene, perconol, etc.
• dialysis.
• stomach emptying.
• notes: good for stabilizing with basic meds and removing toxins and unwanted chemicals.

cryotubes:

• notes: good for healing over a longer period of time, i guess?

[wowzewow]

7 hours ago, Gem said:

i don't really see how stasis beds are outlandish. they fill their own niche.

stasis beds:

• x10 stasis.
• you can receive blood and be injected manually.
• notes: good for injecting other chemicals or restoring blood.

stasis bags:

• x20 stasis (iirc).
• notes: good for transporting.

sleepers:

• x10 stasis.
• lets you inject inaprovaline, dylovene, perconol, etc.
• dialysis.
• stomach emptying.
• notes: good for stabilizing with basic meds and removing toxins and unwanted chemicals.

cryotubes:

• notes: good for healing over a longer period of time, i guess?

Well, the problem here is that with a chemist, they practically are a superior sleeper in every way, because you can practically hook them up non-stop with some of the more powerful medication which is balanced around the normal metabolism rate.

[Roostercat]

On 09/12/2022 at 12:45, wowzewow said:

Stasis beds are from /tg/. We use Baymed. I think it's safe to say that it's unbalanced, for the fact that stasis beds are used for completely different codebases.

From what I've gleaned :

Stasis beds...

- take away the role of sleepers by providing the exact same stasis effect (and by extension, stasis *bags*)
(Infinite chems from sleepers are essentially a non-issue once a single chemist is onboard anyway.)

- take away the role of cryotubes for critical patient chemical injection...

- and (formerly) operating tables. They were so good, ORs were literally abandoned in favor of stasis beds.
There was an emergency patch simply just to rectify this issue.

They have nearly outclassed every other piece of machinery in medical.

They don't belong in this codebase because it's made for an entirely different medical system.

Sleepers are still the only way to perform stomach pumps and dialysis and really are never used for chemical injections to begin with. They are used basically exclusively for those two things and have been this way for a long time. 

The same is to be said with cryotubes. The one niche with cryotubes is healing genetic damage, that is it. Nobody uses them for "critical patient chemical injection" or anything, like, ever outside of some fringe cases. 

On them outclassing every other peice of machinery, medical only has, like, four pieces. Two of them have specific niche uses, one is just a body scanner and the last, the OR table, is used for surgery which the stasis beds can no longer do. 

[wowzewow]

1 hour ago, Roostercat said:

Sleepers are still the only way to perform stomach pumps and dialysis and really are never used for chemical injections to begin with. They are used basically exclusively for those two things and have been this way for a long time. 

The same is to be said with cryotubes. The one niche with cryotubes is healing genetic damage, that is it. Nobody uses them for "critical patient chemical injection" or anything, like, ever outside of some fringe cases. 

On them outclassing every other peice of machinery, medical only has, like, four pieces. Two of them have specific niche uses, one is just a body scanner and the last, the OR table, is used for surgery which the stasis beds can no longer do. 

Well, I agree with you. However, stasis beds do need a nerf, that's for sure. As of now, it's a jack of all trades, and a pretty good one at that.

But it will not be too drastic - I agree that there needs to be a bonus to getting someone all the way to medical, it's always disappointing to lose someone even though you put in all that effort in.

It definitely should not be a "100% survival chance", there still should be stakes, after all.

I'll look into the balance where it stops metabolism for stasis beds, so it'll have a proper "niche", either that or tweaking the stasis potency.

I'll also see if I can add mild bonuses to rollerbeds and whatnot - it's a lot more preferable to bleeding out on the ground, a "better than nothing" bonus.

Edited December 11, 2022 by wowzewow

[Gem]

On 10/12/2022 at 16:48, Gem said:

[...]

voting for dismissal for the reasons stated in the quote.

[Fluffy]

I agree with Gem's assessment on the topic, they serve their own niche and seem to do it well, I don't see at this point in time a reason to remove them, after they were prevented to be used for surgery.

Seconding the vote for dismissal.

[Fluffy]

The grace period week after two dismissals has passed, therefore this suggestion is considered dismissed.

Locking and archiving.