Remove Industrial Frames from Security

[meep109]

Right now it feels like the industrial frames are sorely missing their original purpose, and are being used as the ultimate combat machine. I would like to see the G1 and G2s removed from Security as they have such a massive combat advantage over other frames, which is simply not fun to play against on the antagonist side, and forces them to take a niche weapon (ions or EMP) for them to have an advantage. It would be better to see the frames moved to the same niche as the bulwark- they are well-fitted for industrial work such as mining, engineering and operations, and can attack in self-defense or when the crew armory is opened, and not as really tanky soldier robots.

[Carver]

Truthfully I would extend this to all industrial models (which further includes Xion) in order to make it a cleaner change. But yes, I fully agree that the equivalent of a walking forklift is not remotely balanced at all within Security - it astounds me that the PEAC was buffed immensely against synthetics while the Recoilless Rifle did not receive nearly as strong of a parity buff, when Security G2s are far more oppressive in gameplay than antagonist G2s.

These have always felt more oppressive than even mobility frames had in their time.

[WickedCybs]

I think it would be fine to remove them from most roles in sec other than maybe warden, which I think is kind of fitting to a degree. 

[Sheeplets]

God, please.

[meep109]

Edited the title to cover Xions too

[Fluffy]

There is a very easy counter to them: not standing still, they are very slow to move (even when ""running"") and overheat like nothing, they are also weak against laser weapons, EMP and the PEAC equivalent, all of which balances them out.

They also chug electrical power like a small city, so you need to keep finding positions to recharge, or you'll be dry of power in no time.

Dionas can, according to the wiki, be Officers, but not First Responders: https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae

Ontop of that, Dionas can literally regain health from thin air, an IPC needs nanopaste or the machinist.

 

There's also the mantra: improve don't remove.

[meep109]

5 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Dionas can, according to the wiki, be Officers, but not First Responders: https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae

Ontop of that, Dionas can literally regain health from thin air, an IPC needs nanopaste or the machinist

I think Diona aren't supposed to be in security either way. I was looking in github and found that one variant of Diona is banned, while the other is not. I think this is an oversight but I am not sure. 
On improve don't remove, I just don't see how  industrial frames fit well into the combat-heavy role of security. They are not soldiers. They are not designed to be combatants. And nanopaste has nearly instant healing if research prints enough, although that's a different issue. 

[Fluffy]

3 minutes ago, meep109 said:

On improve don't remove, I just don't see how  industrial frames fit well into the combat-heavy role of security. They are not soldiers. They are not designed to be combatants.

Neither are any other model (available to the players, at least), nor are any other species besides Varuca Warriors, should we ban every model or even every species but Varuca Warriors from this slot?

Also, it's not a combat-heavy role, ICly, and if it were, there would be even more reason to have more of them doing it, not less.

 

6 minutes ago, meep109 said:

And nanopaste has nearly instant healing if research prints enough, although that's a different issue. 

This applies to every other IPC too.

[Carver]

19 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

There is a very easy counter to them: not standing still, they are very slow to move (even when ""running"") and overheat like nothing, they are also weak against laser weapons, EMP and the PEAC equivalent, all of which balances them out.

They also chug electrical power like a small city, so you need to keep finding positions to recharge, or you'll be dry of power in no time.

Dionas can, according to the wiki, be Officers, but not First Responders: https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae

Ontop of that, Dionas can literally regain health from thin air, an IPC needs nanopaste or the machinist.

 

There's also the mantra: improve don't remove.

 

Therefore, voting for dismissal.

This would be a wonderful argument if I didn't also agree that Dionae should be removed from security. There's precedent for removing balance-shattering synthetic frames from Security, but IPCs at a baseline (no pun intended) vastly impact the balance of combat - it is simply that the Industrials with particular regard to the Hephaestus Generation models are absolutely disgusting with it.

Every other model of synthetic can be killed without needing ions or the recoilless rifle (which STILL isn't nearly as good at it as the PEAC, mind you), and lasers are a non-factor when the department has ablatives. It's simply time for the industrials to go, let their broken nature be relegated to antagonists who aren't backed by an entire armoury and station of supporting personnel.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

As somebody who plays a lot of security (oftentimes as a synthetic officer, though not an industrial) I would personally be thrilled to see industrial-frame synthetics disappear from it. They are very hard to kill with the often-ballistic armament of antagonists and suffer little to none of the limitations organic officers, or less durable frames, do. Compounding this is that, in my personal experience, most industrials in security have had very little personalities beyond being big robots that commit violence.

Personally I do not want to see them even as warden as most prisoners are already at a disadvantage and having to fight an industrial with little to no equipment is often impossible.

[Fluffy]

Those would be wonderful arguments, if we didn't had a way to give antags more tools to fight them, but we do: Mercs can take ion rifles and EMP grenades right now, we can make ablative armors work less on them, we can simply make them unable to wear ablative armors, we can give other antags EMP grenades (to which they have literally no way of escaping against, given how slow they are), and so on and so forth.

I will entirely avoid commenting on the argument "I don't like the role most (citation needed) of them are roleplaying and that's one of the reasons they have to go".

 

They are very hard to kill, with the wrong tools, you can use the right tools to beat them:

• Ion Rifles
• EMP grenades
• PEAC-type weapons
• Literally running away, they won't ever be able to catch up to you
• A shield, they won't be able to reach you, you can shoot them, they can't hit you

 

If you have a Tajaran antag, they can literally run across the ship 3 times over before a G2 can reach the other side of one deck.

Unathi in hand to hand unarmed combat can destroy them, getting close, hitting and getting away 3 times before it can do a single step.

 

Making them unable to wear ablative armors? That is a reasonable balancing I would definitely support (I don't wear ablatives with mine myself).
Removing them from the role? That's way beyond what I feel to be a reasonable approach, therefore I oppose it.

Keep in mind, I think we should make the antags stronger too, but the way is not by nerfing the other side, and definitely not by barring the slots even more, especially considering that they cannot self repair unlike Dionas.

[meep109]

4 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

• Ion Rifles
• EMP grenades
• PEAC-type weapons

These are all incredibly niche weapons that are not needed to combat anything but a industrial frame. Any other frame can be fought with regular weapons. 
 

 

4 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

• Literally running away, they won't ever be able to catch up to you
• A shield, they won't be able to reach you, you can shoot them, they can't hit you

Most fights are fought in an area where running away is barely an option. And if running away is a counter to something, then there is a major issue with that.

[Kintsugi]

I don't really have a strong feeling either way regarding this, but I will say that G2s are not the ideal species for a team-focused role like security officer. You are supposed to be able to respond quickly and to be able to keep up with your team, wherever they may go. G2s are slow and struggle to achieve either of those things. What G2s are good at are soaking up damage, however, which makes them very oppressive to antagonists, who are nearly always outnumbered and at best have slight equipment superiority over officers. Even fighting a lone officer in specialized armor can be a difficult task for an antagonist - going up against an entire department can be nearly insurmountable. Mix in G2s, which are difficult to kill and immune to pain, and you're sincerely fucked. Not for nothing, but people make a lot of fuss about antag G2s, when security G2s are a far more difficult threat to counter for whatever goes up against them than an antagonist G2. And that's not even considering the age-old fact that security has a far easier time of recuperating from their injuries than antagonists do.

G1s are less of a problem, but their .8 brute modifier is nothing to scoff at. 

So what are we left with? A frame that isn't suited to being a team player, but absolutely dominates whatever it goes up against. Something has to change for sure.

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

Therefore, voting for dismissal.

Not sure if this is a joke or not, but non-staff can't vote for dismissal.

14 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

 

• Ion Rifles
• EMP grenades
• PEAC-type weapons

The problem with claiming there's no issue with G2s because certain situational counters exist is just that: they're situational. Ion rifles are low-capacity, a waste of TCs for anything except fighting IPCs or draining laser weapon charge, and large enough to carry that the storage cost is immense. The same goes for the PEAC. Emp grenades are, again, essentially a waste of TCs and are finite in numbers. They're also not foolproof: it's fairly easy to throw back an EMP grenade, or to walk away from it, and it's very easy to misuse them in the first place. 

I think you're just proving the point this thread is making: if an antagonist needs to buy niche weapons only effective against one type of enemy in order to have a chance at all of countering that enemy in a reasonable fashion, there is a problem. The fact of the matter is that TCs are far too precious of a resource to be dumping into something like this.

Edited March 16, 2023 by DanseMacabre

[Fluffy]

25 minutes ago, meep109 said:

These are all incredibly niche weapons that are not needed to combat anything but a industrial frame. Any other frame can be fought with regular weapons. 

The industrial frame can be fought with other weapons too, I myself got killed with one more than some times with simple ballistic weapons, and I was wearing an heavy armor too.

Also: different roaster, different strategies, different approaches is the soulful alternative of "let's redo this fight over, and over, and over, and over, and over again", which is why different species have and should have different quirks, things in which they are strong as, and others in which they are weak as.

If you have a mobile strategy in which you attack and hide, get ready and attack again, you'd shred an entire security roaster filled with G2s to the brim, with them almost unable to retaliate against.

If you put up a fight in a closed location, and all you do is click click click click with a ballistic rifle until one of you goes down, they will shred you to pieces.

 

17 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Not sure if this is a joke or not, but non-staff can't vote for dismissal.

As in, I am against the proposal

 

17 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

if an antagonist needs to buy niche weapons only effective against one type of enemy in order to have a chance at all of countering that enemy in a reasonable fashion, there is a problem. 

The fact of the matter is that TCs are far too precious of a resource to be dumping into something like this.

Ontop of what I said above, that is simply not true: EMP grenades are wonderful to counter any other IPC that might be in security, their laser rifles, and anyone who has any mechanical organ or implant (so, most of the officers).

But even if not, there's other solutions: give them more TCs, give them one or two free EMP grenades, make the industrials unable to wear ablative (so they can buy laser weapons to counter them), and so on.

There's a huge list of other things that can be done besides "plz remove", that would make each encounter, each strategy and each toolset you bring to use more unique, that I really don't see how "let's flatter everything to the ground so every possible combination amounts to the same, repetitive encounters that goes as: we roll in, click click click, the encounter has finished, everyone heal up and redo" would ever even sound like an appealing, let alone good, idea.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Fluffy

[Scheveningen]

I think this suggestion is unfortunate, given that Xion Industrials are one of two IPC frames that look any good in security. I support this removal, though. The fact they have such severe brute modifiers and no organs is not a joke. Despite their movement speed they become unkillable ponderous turrets that walk forward at you and output more meaningful lethal damage than you can give them, assuming a match of lethal weaponry. They WILL claim that space.

 

As Schwann has replied here, I can actually testify that an emp grenade has only really disabled them once in a given round. You have to be standing point blank currently to be disabled by it. And since they were a shell in that situation, it was still different. 

 

Did you know that 0.8 brute mod stops delimbing by the entire 30 damage line of bullet weaponry? You'd need shotgun slugs to take anything off. 

[Scheveningen]

6 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

If you have a mobile strategy in which you attack and hide, get ready and attack again, you'd shred an entire security roaster filled with G2s to the brim, with them almost unable to retaliate against.

Clearly you haven't been present for the ever loved "g2 mercs with L6 SAWs" gimmick on the other side. While beatable, and the fact they are incredibly slow, anyone that shows up on your screen as a hostile will die. Quite frankly those mercs don't even need LMGs or ARs, laser rifles would similarly suffice. Recognize also that security can do it too. It requires a level of in character strategy also polluted with having to counter min maxxing with your own.

Another curious thought experiment I think people ought to think about is how much damage a g2 can suffer in a ballistic suit with an already existent 20 percent flat reduction to all brute damage.

[Fluffy]

3 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Clearly you haven't been present for the ever loved "g2 mercs with L6 SAWs" gimmick on the other side.

Ok? The proposal was to remove them from Sec, not antags, in fact the scenario you've just described would be even worse if this proposal were to go through.

You can quite literally (not with a SAW maybe, but most ballistics likely) dodge half of the shots, just thanks to moving.

 

24 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Another curious thought experiment I think people ought to think about is how much damage a g2 can suffer in a ballistic suit with an already existent 20 percent flat reduction to all brute damage.

Done, as I said some posts ago, and I died too in some of them, thanks to the sheer slowness that prevents you from having an engagement, even more:

• A corner, they can poke out, shoot you and go back in, you can do nothing against it, since you cannot really run and flank them
• Harassment and retreat, similarly to above, basically uncounterable for a G2

 

 

It's also kind of strange that we're only focusing on the only aspect in which they are good and ignoring literally every other one:

• Finding the antags? Good luck, maybe in a year
• Arresting them? Good luck, they can just move away
• Any engagement that isn't hunker-down, head to head fight? Good luck
• Any situation in which you don't have a source of electrical power, or it's not available? You'll not work for long
• Hostage situation? Might aswell kill the hostage, you'd never reach to tackle the antag before the hostage is shot
• Avoiding a grenade (EMP or not)? Pray for it
• Probably other situations that doesn't come to my mind right now

 

To go back to a parallelism, it would be like asking to remove M'sai from First Responders: Not only they do not have any disadvantage compared to other species (unlike industrial frames), they're also the fastest and most effective at reaching where someone got hurt.

[limette]

2 hours ago, meep109 said:

I think Diona aren't supposed to be in security either way. I was looking in github and found that one variant of Diona is banned, while the other is not. I think this is an oversight but I am not sure.

This is intentional.
 

Spoiler

Without their protective bark, gestalts with a majority of Coeushave what is known as an ‘echo chamber' by skrell scientists. Their pain echoes violently through the rest of the gestalt, and the others will amplify the pain to a degree also. It is highly unusual for Coeus to ever adapt to the ‘echo chamber' phenomenon before their transition to Geras due to the sheer intensity.

This phenomenon is also what Solarian scientists posited lead to their pacifistic tendencies, that are far more pronounced in the Coeus of their species. In fact they cannot understand why anyone would inflict pain on another living being, more often than not, due to their capacity for empathy and how severe it is for themselves. It is not uncommon for them to attempt to talk down someone being violent, or using their speed to run away instead. Given their intense fear of the ‘echo chamber' effect, they will try to avoid fighting until it is the very last resort. This idealistic and intensely pacifistic viewpoint means that they are unwilling and would likely never be employed in any army, security or PMC group until becoming Geras. Due to their high-degree of pacifism, Coeus who join a military will only do so if they can be assigned a non-combat position such as logistics or as a medic.

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Dionae_Forms#Coeus

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by limette

[meep109]

1 minute ago, limette said:

This is intentional.

Perhaps this removal should apply to Diona too, but I don't think they're as tanky as the industrial frames. However, if they are, then I wouldn't want Dionae in security either.

[Scheveningen]

3 hours ago, Fluffy said:

You can quite literally (not with a SAW maybe, but most ballistics likely) dodge half of the shots, just thanks to moving.

I'm starting to wonder why you're intentionally misleading people with generally incorrect information. You've played Trovensky on the frontline for a multitude of violent antagonist-involved rounds (think ballistic carbine + ballistic armor + walk forward towards hostile antagonist type situation), so I think you know what you're talking about, you're just choosing different talking points for whatever reason or another.

Aurora movement speed is so slow that in a 10x10 chamber room, simply walking perpendicular to the incoming line of fire isn't a sufficient strategy. And because you are especially focused on evading... you're not dealing damage. The slower opponent is actually in a better position, because they're a walking tank with more predictable, steady movement that lets them line up more precise and controlled shots predicting where you're trying to go-- the faster opponent has to adjust to their speed AND blend that with offense-- which is incredibly difficult. It is always better to play it slow. A G2 can just continue to hose you down with incoming fire because there is NO situation where they can go down to paincrit like an organic species can. They cannot feel pain. Your best chance against a G2 is to disable their arms -- bullets and melee is out of the question, it is a G2 and they have a gun, they will simply DPScheck you. So your other effective means would be a laser rifle - because carbines don't do damage or hit very frequently. Against mercenary armor, it's not very good. Heavy corporate armor is equivalent in armor values, and practically reduces the per-shot damage down to nothing. G2s have more "effective-hits-to-incapacitate" than any other species, this much is objectively provable, and is exacerbated by the specialized armor. (Did you know that ablative armor and ballistic armor, with helmets included, can both fit in the satchel? Nevermind. I'm sure nobody would equipment swap as if it is runescape PKing like this.)

The point of G2 merc/security isn't to catch the antagonist. It's to murder anyone hostile that dares stay in the room because you're a nearly invulnerable walking turret and completely deter the usual strategy of just throwing peppergas or flashbangs at the opponent because you'll just get right back up and pwn them. You control the room you're in when you have a gun. No one will carry an ion rifle over an assault rifle. As strong as the PEAC still is currently for shutting down any kind of antagonist, I would still prefer a 7.62 auto-rifle if provided to me.

I also forgot to mention: G2s don't have hearts or lungs. Getting shot in the chest is equivalent to being tickled with a feather duster. G2s just have to not hit -100% health (bc they behave by pointmed health standards) and they will stay up. Compare and contrast, 2 PEAC shots (or 1 against a mildly hit target to the chest) against an organic target fractures the ribs -- any "overflowed" damage has a substantial chance to deal damage to the heart, or lungs, or both, which is a death sentence for anyone with those -- and also deals Heavy Impact-tier explosive AOE damage on detonation. More damage! Fun! While this does impact IPCs, it appears armor values can also disaffect the problem, as it is unclear how the math works for the brute mod works, is it 20% reduction at the end, or at the start before the anti-material vulnerability is considered? Who knows? The PEAC is supposed to be slated as the best for single-shot damage against IPCs, but armor and native species resistances complicate this matter. However, it is very obvious that nothing but the PEAC will be as effective for taking down G2s. However much of a difference it makes is irrelevant because you need at least more than 2 direct hits on target for a G2 merc/sec officer in heavy armor to definitively kill them. That's a lot of resources for just one person.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Scheveningen
clarifying a statement i made about how i misinterpreted the code

[Boggle08]

It is frustrating to see more industrials in security than it is to see them actually do shit in engineering and operations. You know, the jobs they were built for.

The G2's specifically might have the slowest walk speed on the station, but because they're able to actually sprint now, it's moot when they can maintain a steady pace that's only slightly slower than Unathi walk speed. It might not be enough to juke the way other playable species can, but it's certainly enough to rush to where the fighting is and get to work. Two years ago, when running for more than 8 tiles as a G2 would send your battery into critical and dump your ass on the floor, we did not have to consider G2's and other industrials for that matter a problem. Now that you can pick up that meatshield and move it somewhere at a reasonable pace, it is.

A reasonable fix in my mind would be for us to go back to the way it was several years ago, with G2's being stuck at their dumpy walk speed. I wouldn't mind that, I enjoyed playing like that, but I know that I was really the only one who regularly played like that. I'd rather not give up my ability to do my job faster as an engineer or cargo tech so we can keep forklifts that insist they are combat vehicles in security.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Boggle08

[Fluffy]

2 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

I'm starting to wonder why you're intentionally misleading people with generally incorrect information. You've played Trovensky on the frontline for a multitude of violent antagonist-involved rounds (think ballistic carbine + ballistic armor + walk forward towards hostile antagonist type situation), so I think you know what you're talking about, you're just choosing different talking points for whatever reason or another.

This is wrong, also, don't accuse me of misleading, even less intentionally, I believe it's even not only against the subsection rules, but in the forum/general ones aswell.

 

This is what your average merc has in your scenario:

It's a 7.62 automatic assault rifle, capable of being loaded with 20-rounds magazines

 

This is what security has access to, at best, ballistic-wise:

It's a 5.56 lethal polymers fed rifle, only able to hold a 15-rounds magazine and capable of shooting, at best, 2 bullets per click event

 

We will take our beloved "we took the bridge suck it" average scenario, so it will happen here:

 

Security is at the door, you are inside, as antag; I'll make it even worse for you: you don't have any barricade set up.

 

The G2 officer will start to roll in, at the average speed of 1km per year, from the door, in heavy armor. You have your best armor too.

 

As soon as he opens the door, you're behind the central wall where the plant is, you move sideways and unload (in automatic fire) 3/4 shots, before moving right again and being hidden, assuming he's coming in with the weapon aimed and in hand, you get 1 bullet, 2 bullets at worst, before moving sideway.

At this point, you can pull out your esword and, as soon as he does a step into the door, land one or two esword hits before doing the next step, but let's assume you don't have an esword, even worse situation for you.

You move to the right and sprint away, outside his view, just as before he disappears from your view, you click in that direction: bang, bang, bang.

He just did a step, he cannot move, and doesn't know where you have moved once outside his view (you have moved left of one tile), 50% chance of him shooting into the void, you, on the other hand, have seen him doing his step, he's in cooldown, you manage to land one or two shots without any issue, even before he can move. If you are an Unathi, the sprint has a good chance he would not even be able to retaliate at all, by how fast you disappear.

You wait a moment outside his view, move all the way to the left, sprint one tile forward. He can't have gone much away from where you saw him, maybe two tiles if he's lucky, step back and fire another 2/3 rounds in that area, we'll assume you miss him with all but one round. He fires back, you get hit once, move left, his next shot (since with the burst rifle you cannot change where the second shot will go) will hit the wall.

If you are skilled, you can even guess where he shot from, and using your automatic assault rifle, which follows wherever you're clicking for each single bullet, spray the 3 tiles with 4/5 shots, at least another one will hit him for sure.

 

You landed, at worst: 5 bullets
He landed, at best: 3 bullets
So far

 

Since you have nowhere else to move to be outside his view, you retreat into the bridge. He comes forward.

 

You have the control of the situation: peek to see where he is, hide behind the wall, click to open both doors, wield the gun, pick one side, appear, fire 2/3 shots, move back behind the wall. Since it's a super fast reflexes death machine (again, to help your case), he fires back: one bullet, in the timespan you unloaded 2/3 (since your rifle is automatic), before hiding back, the other shot hit nothing.
You can probably repeat this at least twice, before he's in any range to even be able to run enough to get a line on you before you can run back right inside the actual bridge.

 

You landed: 9 bullets

He landed: 6 bullets (you got both the burst rounds, again, to help your case)

 

He is now at the doors, you are inside, you could do the funny esword again, now either from the central wall between the two doors, from the door on the right, or if he's coming towards the left (so slow, it's unlikely he will move, once entered, from there to the left, just to gain a better view).

You could repeat the funny open door, shoot, close door again, from the right of of the bridge too, move in the bar, open the other door and repeat. He does not have an all access, and even if he did, you could repeat it with the BC prep room towards bar door, if he follows you in there.

But let's forget about this possibilities for now. Dumb antag mode.

You go to the left, where there's the console before the Captain's Quarters, or two tiles right, and wait for him to appear in sight, you know he has to pass from there, it's unlikely he will go back and take a whole different route, he's slow af, and generally sec goes heads on against the intruders anyways, so you already know where he will appear, you will unload another 2/3 shots at him, as soon as he does one step, and he will eat all of those again, because he literally cannot move anywhere even if he wanted to, due to the cooldown. He shoots back, since it's a supersec Miranda #1 soldier, you move one tile up as soon as you get hit, keeping the mouse down on him (no problem with an automatic rifle, as soon as you move it will just turn you back towards it, you don't even need to stop shooting, and the system does not introduce any fire latency on movement), he will miss the second shot, you can repeat it again on the next time he fires, you get another shot, meanwhile he's getting sprayed with bullets, with hardly any misses.

 

You landed: 14 bullets (you had some more bad luck)

He landed: 10 (again, you got two again, you was not fast enough to move away once more, this time twice)

 

You can now retreat into the Captain office, sprint once more back, down and then up for engaging him from where the captain sits, you can use the console and the wall to do peek-a-boo more, you have many options, since you're way faster than him.

 

We could go on, but this gives an example of a strategy to robust a G2

 

His projectiles do: 25 damage
Your projectiles do: 35 damage

 

He receive: 14*35 = 525 damage - 20% (.8 modifier) = 392 damage

You receive: 250 damage

You both have the same health, for what I'm seeing in the code, unless it changes from the config, which I don't know (but doesn't look like)

 

Of course, there's many other things to consider, but I hope this is sufficient to show that it's completely, absolutely possible to destroy a G2, as a merc, using the appropriate approach for a heavily armored but slow target.

 

The strength of the ship, sec in particular here, is given by the backup (mainly medical) they have, since they are playing "at home" so to say, lacking that, with two players with similar "robustness", the mercs would always win out.

I played as Merc some days ago, we were against a full security team, with experienced players (HoS was Tokash, other names I recognise in the rest of the slots, there were IIRC all the officers, I believe even the Warden and a detective), we went to free a prisoner as a gimmick, we let them arm up, did some fucky-wuki around the department, then we clashed.

My assault rifle, in automatic, killed Tokash on the first encounter

I have seen, in a rev round, Tokash robust 3 revs, while hurt and unarmed, using a locker and stealing a shotgun from them, we're talking of a robust player

We downed all sec to the point we just went "alright we're not here for you, the EMTs can take you and save you guys", while we suffered no casualties on our side, the only limiting factor to our effectiveness (aside from our unwillingness to execute or deny those in sec that were still alive to be ressed) was the lack of medical support, surely not of firepower.

 

 

2 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

You've played Trovensky on the frontline for a multitude of violent antagonist-involved rounds (think ballistic carbine + ballistic armor + walk forward towards hostile antagonist type situation), so I think you know what you're talking about

Yes, which is why I am saying, the strength is not in the firepower, nor in resistance (on the sec side), most antag players have less experience in combat than sec players and they do not have medical backup, that is the two main limiting factors, when sec players roll mercs in number, sec gets robusted and the crew armory opens, the presence or lack thereof of a slow G2 is not the balancing factor of an encounter between two similarly skilled players, unless they are doing an hull down and keep clicking encounter, which is both the most classic type of firefight (for various reasons, including avoiding friendly fire because you cut someone else's firing line) and also what you should not do against a G2.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Fluffy

[Boggle08]

4 hours ago, meep109 said:

Perhaps this removal should apply to Diona too.

I think my department is quite intent on having Dionae remain a selectable option in security, and we haven't had any balance issues or "outbreaks" from them being there.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Boggle08

[Fluffy]

42 minutes ago, Boggle08 said:

[snip]

Running from one side to the other of a deck with a G2 would more or less set you on fire, actually damaging you, it is not a sustainable mode to use to move around, not even considering that it would halve your battery too to do it, and you're still slower than the walk speed of any other species that I know of (yes, I did race a Diona walking, I was slower or at best on par, and I was running).

For the "more industrial in security", I think I only saw one G2 player since I started playing (probably for less than a week, going by memory) over 6 months, myself excluded, and I got robusted around the same amount of times that I robusted, so I am not even sure where this idea that there's a surge of industrial IPCs flooding the department and magdumping anything that moves stems from, the balance point brought forth so far itself seems rather narrow focused, as it only concerns one specific scenario, with one specific type of combat, and ignores everything else in which an industrial would be worse than any other species in doing, which is the balancing factor of them, it even ignores all the other possibilities of gimmicks that do not use 1916 trench warfare tactics in them, as if making that specific scenario harder due to the presence of a G2 automatically deny any antag gimmick that uses anything else to the point that there's a need to immediately skip all the possibilities and outright remove them from the slot (a G2 would absolutely suck in a kidnap gimmick, cult that makes people disappear in the maintenance tunnels, anything non-overt, hit and run, fights in the maintenance tunnels, the use of any environment obstacle to gain initiative over it, hostage situations, bombings, use of grenades to fight it, any peace antag gimmick, any task to follow the suspects around to keep an eye on them, serving arrests, send them to do any kind of expedition escort or anything that requires to move over anything but short distances, and so on).

I do not know what is so unreasonable to, in the idea of mantaining the ever-popular 1916 trench warfare tactic, propose to simply block them from using ablative armor, so that the antags can simply buy a laser rifle to counter them.

To be clear, it's still worse than using a less brainless approach to fighting them, so that you have to adapt the approach/tactic with, and respond to, what is present against you, but I think it's still a more reasonable suggestion than "remove plz can't fire and brimstone line infrantry engage if there's one present".

[niennab]

I might not be as familiar with Xions but aren't they particularly weaker due to their ability to be in space without a cooler? I wouldn't think of them as needing to be removed but maybe I have the wrong impression of them.

While I dont have a strong opinion either way, personally we should aim to punish the bad players, not removing three character archetypes within a department for everyone.

Moreover it should be kept in mind that if we remove all industrials from security, then we'd be left with baselines, bishops and shells only, as zenghu are also barred from the department.