Remove Borging as a Punishment and change "execution" guidelines

[N8-Toe]

First to preface. this is not a salt post. I have myself never actually been borged. But I do main sec

 

I've seen lately in alot of rounds borging used as a punishment, and very often the time from capture to borging is.. 5 minutes maybe? maybe 10? At that point we may as well just put the antag to the wall and shoot them. Borging does not provide any real substantive roleplay, and lets security and command wipe their hand of the antag. Saving them the risk of breakout or having to handle them. Having to hold someone in perma yes isn't the grand stage of RP, but allows the antag to attempt escape, have visitors, or engage with security in a positive or negative way. And I cannot imagine it is fun for the person being borged as again its not something they can really do anything or build off of for roleplay. If they wanted to be a borg, they would have readied up as a borg

 

To build further to a second point. I feel the thresh hold for our psuedo executions needs to be raised so, so much higher. Marooning is killing them lets not kid ourselves. People should only be marooned if keeping them on the ship is in itself a risk to the safety of the ship and crew. This doesn't mean if they escape from the brig once they get thrown out and their round ended. I dont think the crew killing people, or borging them for anything short of a major crisis, them being some uncontrollable monster, or other extreme emergency makes sense. It is a corporate ship, the crew should not be preemptively killing its members or chopping up their brains.  Lethal force, or throwing people out the boat which is essentially what marooning is, should be reserved for overwhelming situations or as said, situations where there is no other option to ensure the safety of the crew and ship.

 

Security is expected to roleplay with the antag just as much as the other way around. That burden of playing along, yes and, and roleplay is on every player on the server. doubly so if your interacting with the antag. We as a community place a magnifying glass on the antag, but that scrutiny needs to apply just as much to those interacting with them and driving the story with them. Our current trend of antags getting borged right after capture, or thrown off the ship doesn't build an atmosphere conductive to roleplay.

[Ublicto]

I agree, I often think security is borderline metagaming a lot of the time when they believe reports about non-Skrell species using psionics immediately. As an antag I have been punished for prioritizing my own survival and gameplay above another player's - shouldn't sec have a similar restriction? In many cases it feels as if they do not and are allowed to go after the antag much more than the antag can go after them. I have also seen a lot of sec players play to get frags or kill the valid rather than roleplay out an interesting situation.

In general this strikes me as a symptom of a larger cultural problem rather than overstepping by specific players or direct rule breaking in some cases. The rule change that command could not send confirmation messages for every single fax was a very positive change for the better, a similar announcement about security being expected to let the antag cook or behave more like a police force and less like a military occupation force that engages in what is virtually an execution (borging) regularly could help.

[GeneralCamo]

This has been a long time coming.

I honestly do not mind this being an IC change. Borging doesn't add anything to our setting that other things can't do. Yes it shows we live in a corporate dystopia, but cyborgification is so laughably evil and honestly, considering how it is used to instantly remove antagonists, counter-productive to even the corporate interests:

Quote

These mercenary troops managed to figure out where our vessel is, and bypassed our security codes to board and even managed to perfectly get to secure areas of the ship like they had a map. Clearly we should send them in for interrogation by experts to find out who they are wo... nope they're borgs now. Guess that isn't happening... 

 

[Fluffy]

Cyborgification should be used for cases that warrants it, eg. mutiny (this is also canonical), and for threats that escape containment

It should also happen when it's either approaching round end, or there are multiple threats and the ones captured aren't controllable with the available resources

 

It fullfill a corporate interest, because it's cheaper than a positronic brain and you don't have to pay the employee anymore, and it also fits to remind us the corporate dystopia (that sadly gets often forgot), it's a nice element that serves both a purpose in lore and mechanically, the only thing it needs is to be used responsibly, but that goes for everything

On that note, I believe it would be beneficial to add an option of public execution by firing squad as an alternative that the Captain/Command can take, it would help remind the dystopia part and could be used one way or the other to further the RP and conflict (it would be far easier to distrupt an execution in the central ring, eg. by blocking the firing line, than a cyborgification inside the machinist workshop for example)

[Evandorf]

I generally give antags three strikes.  You get caught once, fine. You buy c-4 and blow a hole in communal? Fine, isolation time. You escape again? It’s time to maroon you. Nothing is being gained by keeping you alive to continuously get caught. 

[Carver]

Cyborgification is a tool that feels most sensible where appropriate; consequences for canon actions, and extreme regulation breaks (Mutiny, [Attempted] Murder, etc.)

I’d say if it’s being used for less than such extreme cases, then it’s being misused. I don’t mind marooning since it can be quite interesting in certain sectors (Adhomai was wonderful for this), and I’ve never been bothered by it so long as Security are following procedure and not deliberately under-equipping marooned crew. In any case, these are fine tools so long as they’re not being misused.

What is the point I’m getting at? Both of these are great, both of these should stay, and that if you suspect they’re being used in an inappropriate situation then you should be reporting the command players (Generally the Captain foremost) in question via adminhelps or other appropriate avenues. These tools give some actual bite to the setting being a dystopia, and we’d be worse off without them.

[Ublicto]

19 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Cyborgification should be used for cases that warrants it, eg. mutiny (this is also canonical), and for threats that escape containment

It should also happen when it's either approaching round end, or there are multiple threats and the ones captured aren't controllable with the available resources

 

It fullfill a corporate interest, because it's cheaper than a positronic brain and you don't have to pay the employee anymore, and it also fits to remind us the corporate dystopia (that sadly gets often forgot), it's a nice element that serves both a purpose in lore and mechanically, the only thing it needs is to be used responsibly, but that goes for everything

On that note, I believe it would be beneficial to add an option of public execution by firing squad as an alternative that the Captain/Command can take, it would help remind the dystopia part and could be used one way or the other to further the RP and conflict (it would be far easier to distrupt an execution in the central ring, eg. by blocking the firing line, than a cyborgification inside the machinist workshop for example)

Part of the issue with the corporate dystopia thing is IMO people do not act like they live in blade runner. Virtually nobody reacts with disgust when they see a borging happens and most people do not play characters with a mercenary mindset. Also, borging should have a million different implications both in round and outside it. Borging a Dominian for example could be a major diplomatic incident regardless of what they did. Borging is such a significant thing that in a realistic setting it should only really happen after a long judicial/corporate process, or could be limited and reversed in some way which sort of defeats the point of borging as a fate worse than death.

[N8-Toe]

28 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

Cyborgification should be used for cases that warrants it, eg. mutiny (this is also canonical), and for threats that escape containment

It should also happen when it's either approaching round end, or there are multiple threats and the ones captured aren't controllable with the available resources

 

It fullfill a corporate interest, because it's cheaper than a positronic brain and you don't have to pay the employee anymore, and it also fits to remind us the corporate dystopia (that sadly gets often forgot), it's a nice element that serves both a purpose in lore and mechanically, the only thing it needs is to be used responsibly, but that goes for everything

On that note, I believe it would be beneficial to add an option of public execution by firing squad as an alternative that the Captain/Command can take, it would help remind the dystopia part and could be used one way or the other to further the RP and conflict (it would be far easier to distrupt an execution in the central ring, eg. by blocking the firing line, than a cyborgification inside the machinist workshop for example)

Borging the mutineers doesn't provide a satisfying conclusion to a round, or good RP. In my experience it is caught, straight to machinest shop, and beep boop. Thats not fun for anyone. I dont think it being near round end should have any bearing. is it suddenly ok for the antag to start wordlessly killing people when its round end? if not why is it more acceptable for security to kill?

 

I agree, it is a corporate dystopia. but there is so, so many more ways to show that in a fun and engaging way than "bam, got ya! now to kill you". We're an RP server. I should have a better chance of ending my round here in the brig than I do on Goonstation. As of right now? I'd say my odd's are not in my favor if I'm a rev or traitor who goes big.

[N8-Toe]

4 minutes ago, Carver said:

Cyborgification is a tool that feels most sensible where appropriate; consequences for canon actions, and extreme regulation breaks (Mutiny, [Attempted] Murder, etc.)

I’d say if it’s being used for less than such extreme cases, then it’s being misused. I don’t mind marooning since it can be quite interesting in certain sectors (Adhomai was wonderful for this), and I’ve never been bothered by it so long as Security are following procedure and not deliberately under-equipping marooned crew. In any case, these are fine tools so long as they’re not being misused.

What is the point I’m getting at? Both of these are great, both of these should stay, and that if you suspect they’re being used in an inappropriate situation then you should be reporting the command players (Generally the Captain foremost) in question via adminhelps or other appropriate avenues. These tools give some actual bite to the setting being a dystopia, and we’d be worse off without them.

Attempted murder, mutiny, and red level offenses are a traitors bread and butter. which in turn makes borging commands bread and butter. I've been home sick with the rona lately, so I've been playing alot. And I've been seeing borgings multiple times a day. If I am a traitor, or a rev. why should I give sec a chance, why should I RP with command, why should I risk my gimmick to try and build more a story if I know the second im floored, I'm being cuffed and taken to the machinist shop?

[Fluffy]

2 minutes ago, Ublicto said:

Part of the issue with the corporate dystopia thing is IMO people do not act like they live in blade runner. Virtually nobody reacts with disgust when they see a borging happens and most people do not play characters with a mercenary mindset. Also, borging should have a million different implications both in round and outside it. Borging a Dominian for example could be a major diplomatic incident regardless of what they did.

How people use or engage with the lore and atmosphere is a broad topic that would escape the boundary of borging itself, and is also in broad strokes subjective

Should people act more on the dystopian part? If you ask me yes, they should, but then we should give them more reasons to do it, both in mechanic, lore and policies

As I am sure you would also see, this is a broader discussion than borging itself, that we can have (I would too enjoy more leeway to characters to act like faulty human beings, with desires needs and impulses, than what I see currently being afforded), but is separate from the narrow focus of this specific proposal

11 minutes ago, N8-Toe said:

I agree, it is a corporate dystopia. but there is so, so many more ways to show that in a fun and engaging way

I am all for fun and engaging things, can you elaborate on some of those ways? Possibly in another thread, if appropriate

12 minutes ago, N8-Toe said:

As of right now? I'd say my odd's are not in my favor if I'm a rev or traitor who goes big.

I do agree with you here, antagonists should be given more power to have equal odds against the ship, but the presence (or lack) of borging wouldn't really accomplish this, I fear; when you are caught repeatedly to the level of being borged, you are usually essentially out of tools to prop yourself (as an antagonist) up

What would best accomplish this, I believe, is better tools, policies and player culture

12 minutes ago, N8-Toe said:

Attempted murder, mutiny, and red level offenses are a traitors bread and butter. which in turn makes borging commands bread and butter. I've been home sick with the rona lately, so I've been playing alot. And I've been seeing borgings multiple times a day. If I am a traitor, or a rev. why should I give sec a chance, why should I RP with command, why should I risk my gimmick to try and build more a story if I know the second im floored, I'm being cuffed and taken to the machinist shop?

Because that should not happen, marooning and borging should be mostly reserved for threats that go beyond being i3XX infractions, and should likewise in my view be roleplayed on the other side as well, borging someone 5 minutes after being cuffed doesn't accomplish any of that

I believe there should be 2 chief questions we should ask ourself, as players, when deciding what to do:

1. Does this progress the narrative of the round?
2. Is this the most fun option for the majority of the players in this round?

Ideally, every player would choose to do something that answer yes to both questions; please note that "fun" is intended as a broader concept than hilarity (though it can also include it), and is somewhat of a moving target too

[Carver]

27 minutes ago, N8-Toe said:

Attempted murder, mutiny, and red level offenses are a traitors bread and butter. which in turn makes borging commands bread and butter. I've been home sick with the rona lately, so I've been playing alot. And I've been seeing borgings multiple times a day. If I am a traitor, or a rev. why should I give sec a chance, why should I RP with command, why should I risk my gimmick to try and build more a story if I know the second im floored, I'm being cuffed and taken to the machinist shop?

If they’re your bread and butter as an antagonist, then you’re taking an extremely aggressive approach that’s likely attempting to remove people from the round more than tell a story. Why should you be treated with kid gloves at that point? All of the high tier charges are there for a reason, they’re violent beyond anything else.

If you employ violent means, don’t be surprised when you reach a violent end.

[N8-Toe]

2 hours ago, Carver said:

If they’re your bread and butter as an antagonist, then you’re taking an extremely aggressive approach that’s likely attempting to remove people from the round more than tell a story. Why should you be treated with kid gloves at that point? All of the high tier charges are there for a reason, they’re violent beyond anything else.

If you employ violent means, don’t be surprised when you reach a violent end.

This is a poor argument. So.. if I as a traitor involve my head of staff in the gimmick, maybe I threaten them for encroaching on me dealing drugs? well thats assault of a head of staff, red level offense. I wave a gun around, maybe pop a round or two at sec? Well thats attempted murder. Maybe I'm more subtle, distributing anti SCC flyers, encouraging people to fight the power? Mutiny. Maybe I do something fully peaceful, I try and pay off a researcher for a science disk, or nab a head of staff's special item? Corporate espionage.

 

Several of these can bring borging. So if I'm a traitor, and I dont want to get borged five minutes after I am captured, I just.. shouldn't steal sensitive items,  shouldn't use a gun or weapon, Shouldn't do anything with the setting and inciting anger or anything against the SCC factions, deffinitly not involve a head of staff. This is not extremely aggressive. this is just par for the course antagging.

 

on the kid gloves. A traitor is possibly going 1 v 6 or so versus security. They are given mechanical tools to complete this, as well fight off the sec hordes. but they also should be given breathing room via RP and rules. We cannot as a playerbase sit and say we want interesting antags, we want good antags, we want good stories. And than borg them right after capture. at that point we are failing our end of the bargain. Borging should not be an option anymore, and the standards to kill the antag once captured and in cuffs and take them out of the round higher.

[N8-Toe]

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

How people use or engage with the lore and atmosphere is a broad topic that would escape the boundary of borging itself, and is also in broad strokes subjective

Should people act more on the dystopian part? If you ask me yes, they should, but then we should give them more reasons to do it, both in mechanic, lore and policies

As I am sure you would also see, this is a broader discussion than borging itself, that we can have (I would too enjoy more leeway to characters to act like faulty human beings, with desires needs and impulses, than what I see currently being afforded), but is separate from the narrow focus of this specific proposal

I am all for fun and engaging things, can you elaborate on some of those ways? Possibly in another thread, if appropriate

I do agree with you here, antagonists should be given more power to have equal odds against the ship, but the presence (or lack) of borging wouldn't really accomplish this, I fear; when you are caught repeatedly to the level of being borged, you are usually essentially out of tools to prop yourself (as an antagonist) up

What would best accomplish this, I believe, is better tools, policies and player culture

Because that should not happen, marooning and borging should be mostly reserved for threats that go beyond being i3XX infractions, and should likewise in my view be roleplayed on the other side as well, borging someone 5 minutes after being cuffed doesn't accomplish any of that

I believe there should be 2 chief questions we should ask ourself, as players, when deciding what to do:

1. Does this progress the narrative of the round?
2. Is this the most fun option for the majority of the players in this round?

Ideally, every player would choose to do something that answer yes to both questions; please note that "fun" is intended as a broader concept than hilarity (though it can also include it), and is somewhat of a moving target too

However this isn't how they're being used. I have seen several rounds recently where people are just.. being borged after captured. for just regular ol I3 offenses. I think the lack of borging would help accomplish it as it would take away the crews "easy out".

They would have to, terrible I know, actually deal with their prisoners and not just kill them. This gives the antags time to do more antaggy stuff, escape, or maybe just RP with sec and visitors. And again I don't see people get borged or marooned after three escapes. I see it after one, or none.

 

marooning I think should stay. but it should be the "break glass and pull" measure. the one used once in a blue moon for truly terrible threats the crew cannot deal with and contain. that is the "broken out three times and killed someone each time" scenario. but as of now people are getting marooned for scenarios when no ones died.

 

Borging does not progress the narative of the round

borging is unfun, arguably more unfun than just dying, for the antag

[Aphelion]

6 hours ago, GeneralCamo said:

This has been a long time coming.

I honestly do not mind this being an IC change. Borging doesn't add anything to our setting that other things can't do. Yes it shows we live in a corporate dystopia, but cyborgification is so laughably evil and honestly, considering how it is used to instantly remove antagonists, counter-productive to even the corporate interests:

 

Firmly disagree on it not adding anything to our setting. Several factions are built around strong political and spiritual beliefs on the legality of borging. When borging happens in a round, it enables people to roleplay out the conflict that these factions invite.

[Aphelion]

2 hours ago, N8-Toe said:

on the kid gloves. A traitor is possibly going 1 v 6 or so versus security. They are given mechanical tools to complete this, as well fight off the sec hordes. but they also should be given breathing room via RP and rules. We cannot as a playerbase sit and say we want interesting antags, we want good antags, we want good stories. And than borg them right after capture. at that point we are failing our end of the bargain. Borging should not be an option anymore, and the standards to kill the antag once captured and in cuffs and take them out of the round higher.

You make good points about how easy it is to be 'valid hunting' for borging.

That's on the heads, honestly. I feel like if anything we need stricter management of heads of staff, when it comes to borging. Because it can be interesting, and as a roboticist, the RP of being disgusted with myself as I follow commands is neat. 

I would prefer if it was a thing that a head pushed only if there were no other options, and from the times I've played bridge crew, it looks like they try to approach it this way. But it does happen. I once nearly got borged basically instantly, by trying to stop a borging in progress and that was bullshit. 

I will admit, that the experience of what seemed like a minor thing that made the round slightly more interesting getting met with the captain nearly instantly telling security I needed to be borged, while I couldn't even complain due to having handcuffs on, was very fucking frustrating. But removing borging alltogether is not the solution. Pushing the bar up for unfixable situations with prisoners who have escaped multiple times or have actually killed a few people makes sense.

Also the general apathy of crew to the antics of antags being met with borging is miserable, if you complain about being borged, nearly every 'Joe Goodman' will respond on comms "WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE A CRIME YOU SOCIOPATH", like everyone is automatically actually very in favor of borging, and it's not a huge philosophical and human rights issue that is actually the source of a big conflict in Tau Ceti itself.

Edit: expanding on the apathy

I seriously don't understand this. It feels like most of the crew are actually anti-corporate to a degree until they get annoyed OOCly by the antag being upset on comms, at which point they proceed to insult them for it. Very LRP unless there's actually a reason for the character to believe that imo.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Aphelion

[Ramke]

I will give my thoughts as I tend to have to deal with this as CCIA.

Cyborgification is used as a last resort and on the scale of execution, when:

• The person has committed a very severe crime, refused to de-escalate, was threatened by it, remained uncooperative in custody and still continued without seeking compromise.
• The person is uncontainable (escaped several times, or in the event of i.e. changeling/vampire who veil walks/armblades out of cuffs and slices through walls, antag who shoves C4 out of their ass multiple times, etc.)

The last few canonical cyborgifications resulted in severe pushback from certain crew, so I disagree on the apathy. I can imagine as an antagonist you may face less care than canon cyborgification, but I would assume this is because either nobody knows your character, you've (or your goals have) been difficult or impossible to sympathise with, or haven't interacted with the crew in a positive light at all. This builds up a negative opinion of you, so from a bystander that may have a negative view on cyborgification, they may dislike it. But why would they try to actively intervene against someone who is, from their IC view, an antagoniser who's not a good presence aboard the ship, has no relation, and committed severe enough crimes to warrant it?

While it may be un-fun for the antagonist, this is the same as getting marooned or executed. You're being removed from the round. You can still play as a cyborg, or ghost out. It is to my awareness (I may be wrong) that if cyborgification is used without a viable reason, or you've offered viable alternatives that aren't being entertained (i.e. promising to spill the beans, cooperate fully, etc.) this is something that can be ahelped. All of the above applies for marooning as well.

As for adding anything, I believe it adds quite a lot to the setting and the lore. As Aphelion stated, many different factions and characters have a strong opinion on cyborgification, and the conflict that plays out regarding this is a direct contributor. The fear of cyborgification should be present, and contributes to the setting knowing that corporate forces are ever-powerful, can and will exercise the power to perform it if you are considered too much of a waste. It's a realisation of corporate power, and feeds into every character's opinion of the corporations. If you say the last canon mutiny's outcomes of cyborgifying the worst suspects did not add anything to the server and setting, I don't know what to tell you.

[Aphelion]

Idea: What if we add a special implant antags can get, that is like a memory preserver/ law disrupter. To enable antags to continue the RP post borging?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Aphelion

[GeneralCamo]

How about this:

These punishments are serious. I find it strange that we're in Biesel territory for legal reasons, but command can just decide to cyborgify or maroon someone with no oversight (sure you're expected to fax someone, but this kind of thing is hard to undo if it turns out to be wrong).

What if central had to be faxed for permission? We require this already for the self-destruct sequence. That would add an air of corporate authority to this, while removing nonsense cyborgifications and maroonings that are done just to get rid of an antagonist. Central does want to know who these people are working for after all. It would still be a significant avenue for RP since the decision to fax is a final oversight, not an initial decision or a "feeler": command must still vote as normal. 

[Arrow768]

Voting for dismissal.

I don't see a major issue with borgification.
There are not a lot of cases when you can borg someone according to the regs.

• (Attempted-)Murder
• Mutiny
• Terrorist Acts
• Espionage
• Escaping from a HuT sentence.

And even then borgification shouldn't be the first step in most cases.
As mentioned by @ramke: if you notice that command is pushing hard for a borgification when that might not be reasonable you can (and should) ahelp.

[rrrrrr]

25 minutes ago, GeneralCamo said:

How about this:

These punishments are serious. I find it strange that we're in Biesel territory for legal reasons, but command can just decide to cyborgify or maroon someone with no oversight (sure you're expected to fax someone, but this kind of thing is hard to undo if it turns out to be wrong).

What if central had to be faxed for permission? We require this already for the self-destruct sequence. That would add an air of corporate authority to this, while removing nonsense cyborgifications and maroonings that are done just to get rid of an antagonist. Central does want to know who these people are working for after all. It would still be a significant avenue for RP since the decision to fax is a final oversight, not an initial decision or a "feeler": command must still vote as normal. 

Regarding marooning: we're on a space ship. It's the law of the sea... well, stars, I guess, that people who cause a lotta trouble get tossed overboard. I'm not sure what the timeframe is between the Horizon's various ports of call, but if you're going to be weeks, months in space without hitting any semblance of civilization and you've got a criminal onboard who's showing zero remorse and keeps trying to escape the brig --- you toss 'em overboard.

The game's setting is a corporate dystopia. Megacorporations are borderline or de facto governments, in some places. You character probably signed a waiver agreeing to this kind of thing.

[CampinKiller]

I agree with arrow and ramke above. I've not seen borging used as much as this thread seems to suggest, and I don't see a need to change how it is done. There's always been waves of how the most severe punishments are handled. When marooning was new, you couldn't go a round without someone getting marooned. I think there's just been a spike in captains that are willing to borg people if they bomb the ship/kill people/whatever, and I don't really see an issue with it. Most heads won't vote for borging as a punishment anyway.

[GeneralCamo]

1 minute ago, rrrrrr said:

The game's setting is a corporate dystopia. Megacorporations are borderline or de facto governments, in some places. You character probably signed a waiver agreeing to this kind of thing.

My current idea would not remove these. But after a Captain's decision or a Captain-level vote, it would go to central to make the final decision, similar to the self-destruct sequence. This would give them the chance to intervene should they prefer a full interrogation, or at least give them the chance to get the paperwork done on their end if they accept it. 

 

Honestly I actually don't agree with self-destruct being a central decision and would prefer that to be fully handled on-ship. But that's a seperate topic which I will make later. 

[CampinKiller]

1 minute ago, GeneralCamo said:

My current idea would not remove these. But after a Captain's decision or a Captain-level vote, it would go to central to make the final decision, similar to the self-destruct sequence.

This is comparing apples to oranges. One is the removal of one singular person from the round, the other is a round-ending sequence that also destroys the entire vessel.

I would rather the final sentence of an antag not be left up to some off-ship thing with no stake in the round (read: CCIA, who may not even be online at the time). 

[Omicega]

10 hours ago, Ublicto said:

Part of the issue with the corporate dystopia thing is IMO people do not act like they live in blade runner. Virtually nobody reacts with disgust when they see a borging happens and most people do not play characters with a mercenary mindset. Also, borging should have a million different implications both in round and outside it. Borging a Dominian for example could be a major diplomatic incident regardless of what they did. Borging is such a significant thing that in a realistic setting it should only really happen after a long judicial/corporate process, or could be limited and reversed in some way which sort of defeats the point of borging as a fate worse than death.

It might just be rose-tinted glasses, but it did feel like this used to be the case a bit more. The setting shift from the Aurora (which felt far more megacorporation-centric to me, actually) and its associated nine-to-five workday communter roleplay with a heavy corporate background, towards the Horizon where it's now a bit like Star Trek-lite with big guns on the ship and a grand, galaxy-spanning backdrop has paradoxically resulted in a shift away from a more grim atmosphere regarding the setting and the circumstances of our characters' employment.

Maybe I'm just insane for thinking that way, but there has definitely been a marked change in the overall 'feel' of characters since we moved onto the Horizon, and it's gone the opposite way from how I would've expected it to. I feel like there's more slice-of-life and lower-stakes roleplay being shown by characters than ever before, in spite of the fact that the setting is now entirely at odds with it (no Mendell City background elements to bounce roleplay off and the general limitations of what you can justify as recreational activities outside work hours when you live on a ship). This also explains why people very quickly lose their patience for showing sympathy to antags winding up on the cyborgification chair -- you're going against their preferred narrative of a much lighter universe by forcing the cyborgification issue into the spotlight, so the natural reaction is just to hit you with 'okay, antag' and go on with their day.

Part of the issue is that it's kind of depressing to play characters with the constant threat of living in a shitty universe hanging over them, to be fair. I can't really blame people for it; I think it's partially a symptom of Aurora being essentially the last option for HRP no matter what, so you have people of all stripes trying to carve out what they can from the setting on offer.

[rrrrrr]

In reply to the post above mine: ironically, characters being incredibly callous/mocking about people having their brains surgically removed and put into a mechanical slave-body is very, very grim.

I think it's less that we're playing in a lighter universe and more the fact that things look lighter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Horizon looks a lot less run-down than the Aurora. It's a big white spaceship flying around the galaxy on a noble mission (to make money for shareholders.) It has guns. There are a lot of windows everywhere; it's like an open-floor office, in a way. It has a big central atrium (that's an absolute nightmare to deal with if it becomes depressurized.) It's the SCC's flagship.

Part of this is just my personal aesthetic preference leaking in, but the Horizon looks a heck of a lot cleaner, nicer, and more pleasant than basically any other SS13 map I've seen. (I think this is a bad thing.) It's sort of at odds with the fact that every character on the ship works for the setting's equivalent of Weyland-Yutani, a soulless conglomerate of megacorporations whose only goal is to make money.

It's kinda baked in, at this point. I'm not sure how it'd be "fixed."