Re-enable Solarian Consular 🌍

[goolie]

Saw a conversation about re-adding Sol Consulars and it got me thinking, why WOULDN’T they be on the ship? Sol has some of the most fractured relationships with the SCC & Biesel, so wouldn’t it make sense they’d be sending envoys to make sure there isn’t a cross-continental war? I could see a lot of gimmicks hatch from it being re-added too, and some fun tension for all the Gadpathurian players we’ve got. Wondered what everyone’s thoughts might be on the topic, seemed like a lot of people were positive about it when it was brought up.

[Owen]

I would really, really like this and think it could be justified potentially now that the Solarian Civil War has ended. Along with the other reasons Goolies said. They've been gone for a long time, and Sol lore has developed so much in those years. 

[SilverSZ]

Whilst I like the idea of re-adding the option for Solarian Consular. I think it would have to come with a change in the lore and appropriate developments first.

Currently, according to the Interstellar Relations page.  "The Solarian government maintains no formal ties with the Republic of Biesel, and has called for the Republic to cease its “illegal occupation” of the former Solarian territories now under the umbrella of the Corporate Reconstruction Zone. Relations between the Republic and Alliance have never been worse, and show no signs of improving in the near future." and for NT, the largest of the SCC corporations it's relationship is deemed "Highly antagonistic" with Sol blaming NT for Biesel's breakaway and occupation of the CRZ. Let us also not forget that Sol formed the SCA deliberately to antagonise and weaken the SCC corporations in Solarian space.

The current lack of Solarian Consulars lines up with the lore that we have and would require some lore development to explain the thaw in Sol-Biesel/SCC relations, in whatever form the team choses to do it, that explains why Sol would re-establish relations with Biesel and the SCC in such a way. I'd personally like to see this happen because I think a Sol Consular would have lots of potential fun roleplay onboard the Horizon, but unless the appropriate lore development is done it really does make no sense to bring them back and that development and direction might not be where the lore team wishes to take things or may not be something they presently want to work on given the massive amount of attention already given to Sol in recent memory.

[goolie]

2 hours ago, SilverSZ said:

Currently, according to the Interstellar Relations page.  "The Solarian government maintains no formal ties with the Republic of Biesel, and has called for the Republic to cease its “illegal occupation” of the former Solarian territories now under the umbrella of the Corporate Reconstruction Zone.

I could see that being changed to reflect a more cold relationship rather than a hostile one, considering the war is now over. I don't think changing it would alter much either really, since they're still not on speaking terms. It'll probably be up to the human lore devs! I just wanted to know what the general opinion was about re-adding it would be. I can't get enough of Sol vs. Gadpathur hijinks...

[dessysalta]

Initial post by Goolie and the first response from Owen pretty much sum up how I feel about Sol consuls. I'd also like to chip in my two cents that consuls exist to each new players about the lore, and Sol consuls will be able to teach people who picked Biesel/some other area for their first character, or generally just educate people ICly. 

I think that there should be some caveats, though. Whereas consuls from other areas are allowed a degree of leeway in what they do (Hegemony and Dominian consuls tend to act holier-than-thou and have the privilege of making other character's lives a living hell i.e. being anti-Guwan and anti-Synth/anti-edict-breaking respectively, and obviously the whole "diplomatic immunity" thing that applies to crimes) Solarian consuls should have an additional layer of vetting and maybe even require lore permission to make use of. While the occasional consul mistake is fine, in this case it would be a very delicate situation and if a Solarian consul acts too far out of line it might just end up souring their relations further rather than making them better.

[Carver]

While I’d like to support this, I also prefer the status quo of Sol’s overt hostility toward NT and the SCC. I wouldn’t really want to see that downplayed or ultimately watered down in any form. Ultimately, I’d like to see these relations actively worsen in the interest of the setting rather than improve in any form.

[Roostercat]

Personally, I've found it a little goofy just how overtly hostile Sol is most of the time. They seem to make irrational decisions all the time for the sake of conflict, and the endless tide of Sol antag gimmicks doesn't help that feeling. I think Sol consular would alleviate this as it grounds them a bit more and also gives the endless Sol gimmicks something to at least play off of. I also feel its been long enough since the invasion and wildlands wars to allow them back in some capacity.

[Fluffy]

I think having overly hostile entities is good, they are both fun and easy to play into (which is why there's "the endless tide of Sol antag gimmicks"), if people want to play a morally gray gimmick/character, there's literally most of the origins for that, what we really lack is the contrast: If everything is gray, nothing is

This is however a different question than if they should have a consular on ship or not, and I think the answer to both is yes: They should be more hostile and have a consular (and other characters) that represent it, in my opinion

[Duthco]

From an IR perspective, there is value in an exchange of emissaries between even the most adversarial polities.

From what I understand regarding the behavior of states in an international system, this would be desirable from the ASSN's perspective as it would be a kind of tacit acknowledgement by the Republic of Biesel of ASSN sovereignty over at least some elements of what is yet considered Solarian space (my, my how the turn tables), and it would allow them to push their preferred border-lines (not outward, per se, but push as an idea in an international arena of competing preferences). Further, the kind of international acknowledgement received by having one's diplomats accepted into another polity is rather important to the perceived legitimacy of any government that just won survived a civil war. Among many things, such a line of communication helps broker trade and stave off insurgencies and, potentially, complete dissolution. The military might of the Alliance is notably consolidated and remains an immense force in the Spur. I would think the prospect of rising factionalism within the Solarian Navy would be thought rather frightening from several perspectives, as this has historically been foundational for precipitating more civil war, or, at the very least, potentially spawning more rogue warlords from defectors, as was seen after 2462. 

From a Republic of Biesel perspective, one which, relatively recently on a galactic history time scale, won a war of independence, now is the time to spend that political capital in shaping its relationship with the Alliance moving forward. Depending on the goals and IR ideologies of neighboring polities, it may not be desirable to see an ultimate end of a potentially stable neighbor, even if that cause were to come from within. Instead, it may be preferable to use this newfound position, with a former foe far weaker than they have ever been, as  means to... influence ASSN policies, so as to promote its stability, and whatever else (Here is a place to retain tension. The Navy is a reckonable power, and not one to disregard). It would be well known that a massive sector rife with piracy in the middle of civilized space is no good for anyone, ask the peoples of the Badlands and Weeping Stars. Worse still, would it be were those pirates and warlords fanatical former ASSN naval officers fallen to factional politics, yet holding still a keen edge having been honed as much as they have in various recent skirmishes on the edge of Solarian space.

That said, the above really speaks more so to a direct exchange of Solarian emissaries with Biesel proper, rather than more simply allowing participation at a roundtable of diplomats already present aboard an internationally staffed vessel. 

I worried for a bit that it may only be ASSN-RoB relations that are really at play here, but given that the Alliance does not seem to have a diplomatic presence in many places at all throughout the Spur, I think what I have said, and continue to say in this post remain generally valid.

As it stated in the 2462 entry of the Alliance's History page, "The goal of the Alliance, which once ruled the Spur, is now to simply reclaim its borders of 2462 rather than 2259. Gone are the days of the long shadow, and here are the days of desperate survival." This stance is well enough known to be an entry on the wiki, so I do not think it would have escaped sight by Biesel, et al.'s diplomatic corps, nor be thought to be secret by the ASSN Department of State.

The ASSN Foreign Service has notably been gutted over the years, but from the description of their dropdown on the Sol Alliance page, I am given to believe them eager to reassert competence after a decade and a half of neglect. I can imagine no better an accomplishment to tout than the installation of Solarian Consulars aboard a premier SCC vessel where emissaries from across the Spur are stationed already. Further, the description suggests that members of the Foreign Service have been hard at work since the end of the Frost Regime in their efforts to try to restore diplomatic relations with the broader Spur. 

What seems to be necessary is a transition from the ASSN provisional military government to a civilian one, or at the very least, a change of the present, rather isolationist, stance by the ruling party to one more willing to recognize political reality of the Republic of Biesel as a sovereign state and perhaps more willing to embrace its own soft power so long in disuse, (especially given that they aren't in quite the same position to assert hegemonic power as they once were). This does not have to mean an easing of tensions, but it may mean a reduction in instability. However, instability is but one source of tension.

 

In short:  I want diplomacy, and I want it with a side of animosity, and an extra sachet of resentment.

The desire to station diplomats has some considerations independent of the easing of tensions, and I would think, both the Republic and Alliance (and others too) would be interested in the value this would bring to their respective home offices.

I agree with pretty much everything said above this post, and would like to see Solarian Consulars, but first, I would like to learn of some events that make it a feasible thing.

• This will undoubtedly take time. There is no reason to expect change like this overnight. What is being asked here, is kind of a 180 in apparent ideological intentions, or at the very least, for a wildly less aggressive and isolationist faction to win out which would cause, untold ripples throughout a highly factionalized and yet powerful navy, so it is a bit difficult to say what the most politically savvy idea would be at exactly this second. 

I've a few ideas, but I would rather not risk treading on toes more than I already have here. Very (sort of) sorry for the length of this post; it kind of got out of hand as I did more research. Hopefully, it is as coherent as it reads to my eye.

 

I, of course, have every faith in our lore team that they will continue doing the great job that they have.

Who knows, maybe there is a plan already, and I can only glimpse its shadow.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Duthco
The *time element*

[greenjoe]

I wonder if sol consulars did return, if they would be more heavily scrutinzed and watched icly at first, with more restrictions

Maybe forbidden from carrying a weapon unlike other consular as one thing 

[OolongCow]

I support them coming back. Sol kind of ended up being 2016 to 2020's designated laughingstock nation. As much as people dump on Dominia, it at least gets some lore where it is not portrayed as an overtly evil, antagonistic force to the very vast majority of the crew's characters that has very little official presence on the ship and is hilariously incompetent every time they appear. It has some nuance. It has good and bad. The Imperial family and the Volvalaads are trying their best to make it slightly less dystopic. Sol needs some presence taking them in a similar direction that isn't pushed by a bi-monthly lore article.

On the other hand, and while I have no right to dictate how people can RP their characters, I don't want to see John Sol, Consular, constantly shouting about how he hates everyone that isn't a human and getting in the way of command and just generally being a stereotype of the Solarian the lore team has tried to move away from with what attention they have given them lately. I would rather people forget Sol exists than have people constantly playing Frost-supporting Hopperites with no political tact whatsoever every round. It will become very boring and make the life of every character from Sol that doesn't fall into that mold all the more difficult.

[DatSamTho]

8 hours ago, OolongCow said:

On the other hand, and while I have no right to dictate how people can RP their characters, I don't want to see John Sol, Consular, constantly shouting about how he hates everyone that isn't a human and getting in the way of command and just generally being a stereotype of the Solarian the lore team has tried to move away from with what attention they have given them lately. I would rather people forget Sol exists than have people constantly playing Frost-supporting Hopperites with no political tact whatsoever every round. It will become very boring and make the life of every character from Sol that doesn't fall into that mold all the more difficult.

If I may butt in, I don't really think that that's really a realistic worry. I mean, I think that we can very well trust the player base to play Sol consulars, it already requires a command whitelist, and I don't think it could be any worse than dominian consulars

I really just feel like the "Grrrr, evil Sol Marine Man" stereotype comes from mostly antag gimmicks, and the events with the warlords, as those were essentially the only times you interact with Solarians in uniform.

In the end, however, I feel like this is more of a lore team decision.

[OolongCow]

On 13/02/2024 at 05:13, DatSamTho said:

If I may butt in, I don't really think that that's really a realistic worry. I mean, I think that we can very well trust the player base to play Sol consulars, it already requires a command whitelist, and I don't think it could be any worse than dominian consulars

I really just feel like the "Grrrr, evil Sol Marine Man" stereotype comes from mostly antag gimmicks, and the events with the warlords, as those were essentially the only times you interact with Solarians in uniform.

In the end, however, I feel like this is more of a lore team decision.

I'm not actually opposing them, by the by. I'm expressing concerns that are worth discussing before we go ahead with this.

Dominian consulars dodge the issue because the "bad ones" explicitly represent the worst parts of Dominia. They are genuine representatives of what Dominia IS and rebuke any idea that "it's not that bad." The lore team actively encourages Dominian consulars to watch primaries and enforce Dominia's edicts so that they don't just seem toothless.

Sol is nothing BUT stereotypes at the moment. It has no counterweight besides the characters people play, who often either end up racists, stereotypes of racists, or people who actively distance themselves from Sol due to said stereotypes. Solarian patriots that despise Frost and want a democratic Sol with a bright future are basically nonexistent. Consulars are a chance to introduce those concepts, and while I desperately want that and believe it is ultimately worth the risk, I'm still leery of letting people do whatever because people WILL make the characters I described and swing the pendulum right back towards Marc Prices and jarheads.

Edited February 16 by OolongCow

[Outboarduniform]

I would like this to happen.

However, it would only serve to antagonize people. 

Sol has had a terrible reputation, and Solarian players have had a bad rap sheet for years now. 

I'm not sure what it would add, and the main purpose of the consulars not being in the game is to serve the lore purpose of showing that Sol is intrinsically aligned against the SCC in every conceivable way, and also the historical event purpose of the invasions of Biesel by the Sol Alliance. 

[OolongCow]

17 hours ago, Outboarduniform said:

I would like this to happen.

However, it would only serve to antagonize people. 

Sol has had a terrible reputation, and Solarian players have had a bad rap sheet for years now. 

I'm not sure what it would add, and the main purpose of the consulars not being in the game is to serve the lore purpose of showing that Sol is intrinsically aligned against the SCC in every conceivable way, and also the historical event purpose of the invasions of Biesel by the Sol Alliance. 

The points I was making above is that I also want to see it happen, so that character concepts that rebuke your concerns and offer people some weighty Solarian characters of influence that aren't like Frost or his cronies to interact with. I want Solarian consulars to be a diagetic way of rehabilitating Sol's reputation. A natural, roleplay-centric way of shifting people's perceptions away from marines in power armor. Because no matter how many liberal Solarians people make, the perception of Sol is of the nation that invaded Biesel and beat a member of the Aurora's staff to death in its hallways.

Edited February 16 by OolongCow

[Carver]

I’ve said it before but I like that there’s a major faction that isn’t pro-SCC. Not everyone needs to love the ultracorporation, and Sol remaining an immutable antagonistic force against them remains a breath of fresh air.

I’ll further add that Sol’s biggest supporter is Einstein Engines, and sending representatives to the nemesis of (both yourself and) your biggest supporter is absolutely fucking stupid. I could only ever see it if by some alignment of the stars EE bought out NT (which remains the most boring plot armoured faction next to Biesel but that’s besides the point).

[Shimmer]

1 hour ago, Carver said:

I’ve said it before but I like that there’s a major faction that isn’t pro-SCC. Not everyone needs to love the ultracorporation, and Sol remaining an immutable antagonistic force against them remains a breath of fresh air.

I’ll further add that Sol’s biggest supporter is Einstein Engines, and sending representatives to the nemesis of (both yourself and) your biggest supporter is absolutely fucking stupid. I could only ever see it if by some alignment of the stars EE bought out NT (which remains the most boring plot armoured faction next to Biesel but that’s besides the point).

And having a Solarian consular on board will actually make that antagonism be felt. As it stands now, Sol being anti-SCC is not felt in any way, the presence of an antagonistic force is felt MUCH more than the lack there of.

It's a background thing no one pays attention to unless their attention is brought to it. News articles are neat, and interesting, and well written, but how is Sol's antagonism felt on the Horizon? If you were to remove that element, would literally anything change?

Re-adding a Solarian Consular, at the very minimum, brings this antagonism to light. They're not a corporate employee, they're only allowed to be there. A well played consular can try to push things in a direction that are contrary to the SCC's (Specifically Nanotrasens) interests.

[DatSamTho]

5 hours ago, Carver said:

I’ve said it before but I like that there’s a major faction that isn’t pro-SCC. Not everyone needs to love the ultracorporation, and Sol remaining an immutable antagonistic force against them remains a breath of fresh air.

I’ll further add that Sol’s biggest supporter is Einstein Engines, and sending representatives to the nemesis of (both yourself and) your biggest supporter is absolutely fucking stupid. I could only ever see it if by some alignment of the stars EE bought out NT (which remains the most boring plot armoured faction next to Biesel but that’s besides the point).

Sol absolutely could have Consulars onboard. There's still plenty of crew with Solarian citizenship, and we're not talking about bringing an EE rep here. Consulars don't have to be from a faction that's friendly to the SCC to be onboard, we already have consulars from the DPRA, a xenophobic nation that is outwardly opposed to megacorps, and literally nationalised most of their assets within their territory.

I really fail to see how Sol consulars are seen as this outlandish idea. Wouldn't a country recovering from a warlord civil war try to mend their diplomatic relations, after losing half of its territory and being probably at its weakest it's ever been?

[OolongCow]

21 hours ago, Carver said:

I’ve said it before but I like that there’s a major faction that isn’t pro-SCC. Not everyone needs to love the ultracorporation,

There's a difference between nations and corporations, and we shouldn't conflate them. Plenty of corporations, even ones in the SCC, take actions that are actively detrimental to its interests and the interests of other members. We don't need the same nation to be "designated bad guy" for a decade straight. It just demeans and demotivates the lore team to actually give Sol anything interesting to do and provides very low quality RP.

Are we also just sort of forgetting that Elyra exists and committed state-sponsored acts of violence against the Horizon more recently and more officially than Sol ever did? Frost was a rogue agent with tacit support from parts of the government, and most of the characters his actions impacted aren't even around anymore. His first invasion was defeated at extreme cost by Sol itself ordering the 25th fleet to put him down for violating Biesel's national sovereignty without permission.

The Elyran government directly ordered special forces to put guns to the heads of the crew of the Horizon: and plenty of currently-played characters were around for it. The only reason they didn't get their way is because of the FSF being bribed by the crew.

The SCC is not the Republic of Biesel. Most characters are not Bieselites and were not directly affected by Frost's invasions. They only care about "sol bad" because players keep OOC insisting Sol remain a monolithic bad guy instead of looking slightly to the side where the Lii'dra, Exclusionists, and pirates are happy to oblige the need for ontological evils.

 

21 hours ago, Carver said:

I’ll further add that Sol’s biggest supporter is Einstein Engines, and sending representatives to the nemesis of (both yourself and) your biggest supporter is absolutely fucking stupid. I could only ever see it if by some alignment of the stars EE bought out NT (which remains the most boring plot armoured faction next to Biesel but that’s besides the point).

There are diplomatic missions even between the most hostile of countries. Which is what Sol and Biesel are. The SCC and EE are corporations, and despite the SCC's close ties with Biesel, it is still motivated by profit. The promise of Solarian markets opening back up to them would be enticing.

It could be reasoned that Solarian consulars dipping their toes in the pool by sending representatives to Biesel indirectly through the SCC could also be the first step towards a thaw between them. Something a lot of people would find really interesting in comparison to "sol turned evil and racist and isolationist again".

Edited February 17 by OolongCow

[Carver]

17 hours ago, OolongCow said:

There's a difference between nations and corporations, and we shouldn't conflate them. Plenty of corporations, even ones in the SCC, take actions that are actively detrimental to its interests and the interests of other members. We don't need the same nation to be "designated bad guy" for a decade straight. It just demeans and demotivates the lore team to actually give Sol anything interesting to do and provides very low quality RP.

Are we also just sort of forgetting that Elyra exists and committed state-sponsored acts of violence against the Horizon more recently and more officially than Sol ever did? Frost was a rogue agent with tacit support from parts of the government, and most of the characters his actions impacted aren't even around anymore. His first invasion was defeated at extreme cost by Sol itself ordering the 25th fleet to put him down for violating Biesel's national sovereignty without permission.

The Elyran government directly ordered special forces to put guns to the heads of the crew of the Horizon: and plenty of currently-played characters were around for it. The only reason they didn't get their way is because of the FSF being bribed by the crew.

The SCC is not the Republic of Biesel. Most characters are not Bieselites and were not directly affected by Frost's invasions. They only care about "sol bad" because players keep OOC insisting Sol remain a monolithic bad guy instead of looking slightly to the side where the Lii'dra, Exclusionists, and pirates are happy to oblige the need for ontological evils.

Frost was the elected head of state of Sol by a very large margin, that’s anything but a rogue agent. As for calling Sol a ‘bad guy’, I fail to remotely see how they’re bad at this present time unless one looks at them from some manner of pro-corporate angle - as by all metric, the SCC is equally if not more antagonistic. It is by having a counter to this, and a major power instead of some insignificant minor terrorist faction, that there actually feels like some manner of balance in the setting.

Elyra remaining on over-the-table friendly terms is due to their special operation essentially remaining on an NDA for everyone involved (I suppose excluding the FSF escort), it isn’t publicly available knowledge to my awareness outside of fringe leaks and the unreliable witness of the mercenaries aboard the Caravaggio.

As for most characters not being Bieselites, one shouldn’t forget that the dominant human history of the Spur was in conflicts between Sol and it’s colonies. The Coalition exists solely (hah) because of Sol. Most human cultures outside of Sol have a very ingrained dislike of Sol, made more obvious by a few pertinent examples when you consider that Xanu was shelled to the point that it has more craters than the moon and Gadpathur was left next to uninhabitable by the same measure.

The SCC needs a real, tangible opponent. Sol is the only one who can be argued to be morally grey or even in the right in several cases, considering the SCC’s methodology, and that’s one of the best features about Sol. They’re not some faceless, throwaway murder terrorism faction like Lii’dra, the Exclusionists or any pirate group who are all next to impossible to paint in any degree of moral ambiguity.

[OolongCow]

2 hours ago, Carver said:

Frost was the elected head of state of Sol by a very large margin, that’s anything but a rogue agent. As for calling Sol a ‘bad guy’, I fail to remotely see how they’re bad at this present time unless one looks at them from some manner of pro-corporate angle - as by all metric, the SCC is equally if not more antagonistic. It is by having a counter to this, and a major power instead of some insignificant minor terrorist faction, that there actually feels like some manner of balance in the setting.

Elyra remaining on over-the-table friendly terms is due to their special operation essentially remaining on an NDA for everyone involved (I suppose excluding the FSF escort), it isn’t publicly available knowledge to my awareness outside of fringe leaks and the unreliable witness of the mercenaries aboard the Caravaggio.

As for most characters not being Bieselites, one shouldn’t forget that the dominant human history of the Spur was in conflicts between Sol and it’s colonies. The Coalition exists solely (hah) because of Sol. Most human cultures outside of Sol have a very ingrained dislike of Sol, made more obvious by a few pertinent examples when you consider that Xanu was shelled to the point that it has more craters than the moon and Gadpathur was left next to uninhabitable by the same measure.

The SCC needs a real, tangible opponent. Sol is the only one who can be argued to be morally grey or even in the right in several cases, considering the SCC’s methodology, and that’s one of the best features about Sol. They’re not some faceless, throwaway murder terrorism faction like Lii’dra, the Exclusionists or any pirate group who are all next to impossible to paint in any degree of moral ambiguity.

Nothing you said is wrong, but it also doesn't explain why they can't have a presence. The United States does not maintain an official embassy in Taiwan due to risks of antagonizing China, but it does have the American Institute in Taiwan as a de facto one. Japan maintained an official embassy within the United States for the entire duration of the war. Even states that actively expelled the embassies of other countries still maintain unofficial diplomatic channels, because when you need to send a message to another country that isn't a public address, diplomatic officials are important to have. You can't just email the head of another country. You can't just call them on the phone. You call your people in their country, and have that person talk to them. That's what consulars do. They're representatives of outside forces, not employees of the SCC. This is also assuming that Sol literally doesn't change at all. I don't think the lore team wants them to stay this static, unchanging force whose only defining characteristic is "they don't like us".

Putting a Solarian consular on the ship with an excuse of "well someone needs to represent the interests of all the Solarians aboard" and using them as a convenient way to contact the SCC when necessary is a perfectly valid excuse that not a single one of your points refutes. I agree with your points, but not your conclusion. I think it's entirely reasonable for Sol to be antagonistic right now, but still have a consular and maybe go a different way in the lore.

Edited February 17 by OolongCow

[Carver]

20 hours ago, OolongCow said:

Nothing you said is wrong, but it also doesn't explain why they can't have a presence. The United States does not maintain an official embassy in Taiwan due to risks of antagonizing China, but it does have the American Institute in Taiwan as a de facto one. Japan maintained an official embassy within the United States for the entire duration of the war. Even states that actively expelled the embassies of other countries still maintain unofficial diplomatic channels, because when you need to send a message to another country that isn't a public address, diplomatic officials are important to have. You can't just email the head of another country. You can't just call them on the phone. You call your people in their country, and have that person talk to them. That's what consulars do. They're representatives of outside forces, not employees of the SCC. This is also assuming that Sol literally doesn't change at all. I don't think the lore team wants them to stay this static, unchanging force whose only defining characteristic is "they don't like us".

Putting a Solarian consular on the ship with an excuse of "well someone needs to represent the interests of all the Solarians aboard" and using them as a convenient way to contact the SCC when necessary is a perfectly valid excuse that not a single one of your points refutes. I agree with your points, but not your conclusion. I think it's entirely reasonable for Sol to be antagonistic right now, but still have a consular and maybe go a different way in the lore.

An embassy in Biesel is distinct from an embassy in the SCC’s top of the line flagship prone to missions that demand utter secrecy. The former I can very well see, Biesel is the ostensibly independent nation that may seek to maintain passable relations with Sol, but the (formal entity of the) SCC and in particular it’s head corp NT have been effectively criminalized and exiled from Sol.

To end my point, I don’t want Sol to go a different way. I can’t say it any plainer than that that’s fucking boring. They can have plenty of expansion and writing without removing their most unique feature, being the only real meaningfully powerful and morally ambiguous faction that doesn’t take the SCC’s shit.

[DatSamTho]

3 hours ago, Carver said:

An embassy in Biesel is distinct from an embassy in the SCC’s top of the line flagship prone to missions that demand utter secrecy. The former I can very well see, Biesel is the ostensibly independent nation that may seek to maintain passable relations with Sol, but the (formal entity of the) SCC and in particular it’s head corp NT have been effectively criminalized and exiled from Sol.

To end my point, I don’t want Sol to go a different way. I can’t say it any plainer than that that’s fucking boring. They can have plenty of expansion and writing without removing their most unique feature, being the only real meaningfully powerful and morally ambiguous faction that doesn’t take the SCC’s shit.

I really don't see how adding a Sol Counslar would retract from Sol being what you described.

And again, we've precedent for factions hostile to the megacorps having reps onboard, in the DPRA. Not to mention, in this universe, the megacorps are as powerful, if not more powerful than some nation-states, it would make sense for people to have diplomatic relations with them as well, even if they're not exactly on good terms.

Not to mention, my final and GREATEST point in favour of Sol Consulars: It would be really, really, really, really cool for them to be here, please bring them back.

[Carver]

52 minutes ago, DatSamTho said:

I really don't see how adding a Sol Counslar would retract from Sol being what you described.

And again, we've precedent for factions hostile to the megacorps having reps onboard, in the DPRA. Not to mention, in this universe, the megacorps are as powerful, if not more powerful than some nation-states, it would make sense for people to have diplomatic relations with them as well, even if they're not exactly on good terms.

Not to mention, my final and GREATEST point in favour of Sol Consulars: It would be really, really, really, really cool for them to be here, please bring them back.

The DPRA Consulars aboard are with the civilian government, not in service to the very hostile juntas. The megacorps being powerful is already reflected in that Sol didn't entirely absorb all of the corporate assets of the non-NT megacorps, but the point of that absorption was exactly to counter your point there: Sol saw the power the corps had, Sol took direct action to hamstring their power within Sol (In NT's case, for good). Relations make sense on Biesel, in Mendell, not on the flagship that has an NDA for every second mission that in some form directly furthers the power of NanoTrasen and the SCC.

[DatSamTho]

7 minutes ago, Carver said:

The DPRA Consulars aboard are with the civilian government, not in service to the very hostile juntas. The megacorps being powerful is already reflected in that Sol didn't entirely absorb all of the corporate assets of the non-NT megacorps, but the point of that absorption was exactly to counter your point there: Sol saw the power the corps had, Sol took direct action to hamstring their power within Sol (In NT's case, for good). Relations make sense on Biesel, in Mendell, not on the flagship that has an NDA for every second mission that in some form directly furthers the power of NanoTrasen and the SCC.

Oh come on, let's not act as if the NDA's we have aren't already immensely silly when it comes to pretty much *any* consulars.

And I think everyone else in this thread has also agreed that there would need to be in-lore development for Sol Consulars to come back, not just introducing them as is.

Edited February 18 by DatSamTho