Apartment Server Ban - My Grievances

[nanotoxin]

. She hated anyone who played Security and constantly and created multiple threads telling them how they need to change the way they play (( which some do, but blaming a entire department for the faults of a few is stupid. I don't blame the entire civilian branch for the journalist publishing woodys got wood over and over))

 

I'd also like to point out that Bokaza and I frequently play security, as do a number of Cassy's other friends. There's a difference between hating shitcurity, and all security players.

 

Is behaviour outside of the Aurora server, which impacts its players and reputation, to reflect on someone in-Aurora through administrative action?

The answer now is an apparent yes.

 

I can think of someone else on this server, who is only on this server for their disgusting behaviour on a different server, so why don't the same rules apply for that person?

 

I can't get over the fact I was blacklisted, because certain people wouldn't get along with me and problems would arise, so I'll just call them petty"

Edited July 14, 2015 by Guest

[josh1133]

As I already stated, I believe I misunderstood Inverted when he called out Delta and assumed it was a conversation you were all having. It would be great if you read the first line where I said that. Second, I be happy too!

Let's talk about the time Cassy was cult and I was observing. Her buddies sabotaged the engine and I gave Evil permission to brig every one who was involved. This resulted in her yelling at me as I tried to work out a deal between the two groups, which resulted in me just giving up and let Cassie run the round since "I'm bias towards sec".

I don't think I need to open old wounds, but my favorite part was the round after, where Dire apologized in OOC about the round to me, in which Cassy started to insult Dire. She then started to insult me and claim how I was playing the victim and other big paragraphs I rolled my eyes at. I warned her of a mute, she insulted me again and was muted. Now most people would have been banned, but due to my possibly bias against Cassy, I handed it over to soundscapes when he logged in.

But you know, I am the biggest fan of security ever, it's not like I have ever gone against sec or have any other characters besides Carton. Right?

[Erik Tiber]

Whether or not Carton is your only character doesn't change whether you're being a jackass and whether or not your accusations are baseless slander. If you don't want to be seen as a supporter of shitcurity stop judging criticism of shitcurity as the second coming of Adolf Stalin.

[josh1133]

Whether or not Carton is your only character doesn't change whether you're being a jackass and whether or not your accusations are baseless slander. If you don't want to be seen as a supporter of shitcurity stop judging criticism of shitcurity as the second coming of Adolf Stalin.

 

My sides.

I actually can't feel them.

We have different definitions of Shitcurity, my version is a officer who goes up to someone without a word and stun batons them for no reason and arrest them. Maybe even beats them to death. Maybe throw them in a cell or trump up charges so they are out for the entire round.

Your version is "I didn't get something they way I wanted".

Hell, I remember one time to "Show shitcurity" Cassy took a quote from a changeling who was trying to get the station to turn on them as a member of security. I also find this incredibly funny that you call it slander, because clearly its not slander since there is:

1) Past threads proving my point

2) More people then just I who agree with the ban

3) Her notes

But she is your friend, so anyone speaking out against her is wrong. But I mean, its not like I have one character who literally makes life as hard as possible for Security every shift they go on, or its not like I had a journalist who wrote stories about Medical/ Security incompetence every shift they logged on!

I'm just bias towards Security, I always help them out! Its like I didn't make a thread in the forums offering to break people out of jail, get to know every antag in some form and try to help them out with certain characters, and its totally not like I have shown that when it comes down too it, I don't take these kinds of matters into my own hands because of my possible bias.

But no, Im a bad guy because I have a opinion you don't like, so I am Adolf Stalin.

Burn me at the cross! I didn't like Cassy and I have a different opinion of shitcurity then you do, so I am Adolf Stalin.

You know what. Fuck it. I'm clearly not good for this community anymore.

I quit.

[Guest]

OKAY.

Can we fucking lock this, now?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

OKAY.

Can we fucking lock this, now?

no, we're waiting for Skull to come home so we can reach a consensus, can you pleaseeeee not ask this anymore?

 

that one cult round

Oh, God, not this again

The argument of why that was shitcurity and why you failed as a mod was already done to death and you aren't doing anything different here then painting yourself in a better light.

Let me add something more that you weren't made aware of however.

You were acting like a victim being saltier then a bag of chips in the dead sea.

Also, Dire and Cassy are friends, if need be I can ask her to post about how baseless "she was insulting her" is.

Speaking of Skull, formulating a reply since his post was actually really good and contributing to a solution and deserves more attention

Edited July 14, 2015 by Guest

[Frances]

The big replies are now all out. Here's mine:

@Doomberg & co.

Due to an incident in which only our players/community members were involved, on a server that piggybacked on ours for obtaining the majority of its playerbase.

The semi-public mockery of our players is what bothers me, not the fact that it was ERP.

I still don't think that it makes this incident Aurora's business. These are people being shitty to each other on another server - if the incident had happened between a group of four Aurora players playing Borderlands 2 (and one of them said some seriously mean stuff to another), would you have banned them too? Because such a situation is about as closely related to Aurora as the apartment server was.

As for the mockery, the definition of "semi-public" is vague at best. Aurora staff have consistently mocked bad/misbehaving players in msay - and if you tell me you've turned msay into a place of exclusively formal, proper and professional discussion in the few months since I've left the team, then I will be both disappointed and impressed. In fact, there's very little difference, imo, between the chat of ~20 friends Cassie posted the logs into and msay (which also holds about 20 people, with the only difference being that people who are offline don't see the chat).

In fact, I'm confused by the general inconsistency of whether you want the apartment server to be related to Aurora or not. I had gotten the impression that it was a place no admins wanted to get involved with due to fear of potential drama from Cass (this went as far as Aurora staff being requested by other staff not to get involved with it), and now it nevertheless involves your community's players closely enough that you're ready to hand out permanent bans due to drama on that server in order to defend them. As far as Cassie's own willing involvement with Aurora, I think she's already stated it to be rather low - she explained several times that the apartment server is one she made in her own free time, for the sole purpose of playing with a small group of friends.

 

---

---

Less serious? I probably misspoke(typed?) if you believe this is what I meant. "Much easier to root out and deal with" was the intended claim. No such fuss would have been made in that case.

But that's not what you said.

And, before you reiterate the previous point of sexual harassment being a heavier issue than this - I would rather have heard that they were sharing pictures of dicks than logs of (sometimes) minors ERPing.

That aside, I do get that you're trying to say that someone sharing logs of ERP is a much grayer issue than one of someone posting dick picks - as clearly evidenced by the huge backlash the administration is now facing for their actions.

 

---

---

Ban reason? No. Major contributing factor? Yes, at least in my own view.

Couple of examples to refer to:

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2882&p=28737#p28737

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2882&p=28727#p28727

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2882&p=28716#p28716

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1556

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1266&p=11603#p11603

Yes, some of these are, at least partly, in a gray area. I picked them for the sake of illustrating the entire "revolutionary" mindset I've seen constantly manifest in someone who hardly played on the server.

You described Cassie as a toxic and problematic individual, and stated this was the deciding reason for her permaban. Looking at the posts you linked, I fail to understand the "revolutionary" mindset you're speaking of quite exactly - are these posts worthy of permabanning an individual?

The sad thing is, I feel like this entire situation was caused by a very large misunderstanding from the staff, as well as a general unwillingness to solve that misunderstanding. Again, the first course of action when dealing with an issue like this is to get in touch with the problematic individual, and try to understand their point of view as well as make them understand your own - this was never done.

And that's honestly what bothers me the most about this. At no point did anyone try to sit down with Cassie and work out the obvious enmity which existed between all of you, before simply resorting to permabanning her away. And maybe most depressing thing of all is that I am rather certain Cassie would've actually listened to you if you had taken the time to talk to her (and she might've been able to explain a thing or two along the way.)

 

• [10:23:07 AM] Frances: can I ask you a question real quick?
  
  [10:49:48 AM] Cassie: mhm?
  
  [10:51:01 AM] Frances: were you ever warned by staff against your behavior
  
  [10:51:09 AM] Frances: or did they make attempts to discuss it with you
  
  [10:51:43 AM] Cassie: I got a forum board warning after that security discussion one time.
  
  [10:51:56 AM] Frances: is that all?
  
  [10:53:59 AM] Cassie: After this warning... I approached Skull and told him I'd try to be more civil on forums and whatnot, said I just wanted to be listened to. He spent the entire convo just nodding and agreeing and being like, "Oh, oh, but niceness is important", so the I left the forums alone for quite a while.
  
  [10:55:02 AM] Frances: so did administration ever make an effort to get in touch with you and discuss the problem before handing out the ban?
  
  [10:56:02 AM] Cassie: You mean this incident?
  
  [10:56:05 AM] Cassie: No.
  
  [10:56:18 AM] Cassie: No discussion happened before this ban.

 

The defense rests its case.

---

---

@Skull

I agree with your general assessment and find it accurate, from a clinical and objective standpoint.

As far as how to resolve this situation? I frankly don't know. There's still a lot of yelling, and a lot of people who (imo) aren't being entirely reasonable. My suggestion would be to let the administration collect their thoughts for a few days, then have everyone on staff try to come to a resolution (that's on your end, not the players'. Cause it's not really the players' job to tell admins how to admin themselves, right?)

I don't want anyone to get thrown out, personally. All I want is healthy dialogue (which is rather hard to get right now, surprisingly). I can't apologize on the behalf of other community members for some of the attitudes or reactions you've had to deal with, though I feel sorry those things are happening. (And no, it's not really staff vs. players, it's more like random people vs. random people.)

I don't hate anyone, not Skull, not Doomberg. I don't agree with the actions taken here, but there's not really any precedent of it, either. I'd like to figure out how this happened (as well as what staff plan to do about it) before beginning an outcry to get new server admins.

[Erik Tiber]

I would politely request that everyone else in the thread please show the maturity which Skull demonstrated and actually follow his actions. Specifically, accusing Cassy of being some nogood thoughtcriminal is... kinda explicitly against what Skull stated earlier.

It is quite depressing that the person who screwed up is now more willing to discuss his screwup than many of the others in this thread.

And Delta, given that Skull wants to discuss the legit issues that exist, and actually resolve him, I doubt he'll be all that receptive to closing the thread just to save you from even more embarrassment. Please do get on topic.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

-snip-

i can only add my thoughts, if you really mean the "Hands were stuck where hands probably shouldn't have been stuck" bit, maybe announce the fact that out of server conduct shouldn't warrant a permaban and unban Cassy, if only for the gesture.

The present case seems to be that Cassy was banned for two reasons, the ERP logs and whatever Doombergs problem with her is. Neither really warranted a permaban.

Optionally it would be really good to see an apology from Doomberg, or at least some acknowledgment, or anything to not make him look like the worst

Again, this is personal opinion of myself

[swat43]

My personal imput into all of this issue?

People being more picky as of late and admins growing tired and restless by the passing day, and it is draining their sanity and their lack of better judgement calls on things getting worse and worse.

I don't know if any of you noticed, but can as of late we had some really really really big bull threads and drama over the past months, and boy i wish i was there to help the server or comunity as best as i can and calm the storm... but seems this current issue we have(cassies case) it's still brewing around. Hell, i would give medals to our staff for hard work that they are still with us and haven't flipped their stuff up and left us to rot or bleed out slowly.

For the current issue with Cassies case? What about it now.. It's a boat sailed long gone. An issue that's been dealt with, with rather unthoughtfull way, but nothing we can do about it right now, since what's done is done. But what can we do right now? How about we learn from this something very important, and stop tearing each others throats out and pointing fingers and putting people in spotlight, please, stop it, i beg of you to not do so, we're a bloody family after fucking all! But to the question as to do right now, is a hard one. What i will suggest is unthinkable, and it is that we all just take a small break from SS13 at all for like.. let's say a week or two days. Leave everything, forum, game everything. You may go play what ever games you wished after all those moneys wasted on steam sales finaly, or do something productive and make a wooden fortress on your favorite Oak tree, or just talk your daily sorrows to other people on skype or what ever. The server has already been going for nearly 2 years, and this is with out a doubt normal that sooner or later such a shitstorm that we just had will be experienced. Could have we been prepared for this? Yes. Were we? No. Now we just sit down, enjoy our tea/coffee and our magnificent minds travel into our own dream world to calm down, shall we?

I may be speaking more or less gibberish, but i can't sit here on my PC reading all these things occur while i am away myself with real life work for 11 hours away from home and then come back and see the state we are.

But to my second unthinkable suggestion: We pardon the charges, the cassie made. Forget everything, and forgive that she ever did it, and we will welcome her back with open arms, whether she wants of course. We all forgive her for the things that happened, and apologies for the unprofessionalism we did on regards of the situation. Call me a bafoon or imbecile for sugesting this atleast i wish for this drama to END! I can't stand it, nor does the server needs it. In the meantime if we do pardon her, how about we do something about ourselves. How about we improve our current state to the better (That is: Roleplaying abilities, admining system, and our whole little paradise comunity to a better future). How? Here's the funny answer, because i don't. But sitting on our PC screeens and complaining won't do anything.

Whew... This may seem like a big gibbersih, but i just had to step in, sorry, but this drama has went for to long, and i wish for all of us only the best, and i do not wish to lose another server that i called as a home 'with lovely 2d spess man and people in it', nor the hard working admins, that are litely trying to do their best. You may quote me otherwise, but i know, that most if not all admins care for the server.

[Rechkalov]

Now, I didn't read through all of this and something tells me I should not get involved, but these two points I just cannot get out of my head.

1) I'm pretty certain Doomberg's problem is not with how players represent the community outside of the server, but rather the attitude some players have towards other players slash community as a whole.

2) Way back, when this thing began, certain party here had issues with players who would fabricate drama and force it onto others.

Releasing those logs, publicly confronting people in manner that was by all means hostile and demeaning and finally returning time after time to continue these discussions would seem to me to be precisely that; collectively creating drama so vast and so loud that it cannot be ignored.

Whether one gets off to 32x32 pixels sprites of spessmen or his own rhetorics is minimal difference.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I went back to my blacklist a few times because I wanted to portray how silly it is to hardline against punishing someone for extra-server business, when I'm punished for extra-server business, relative to Cassie's server and the lore I've wrote or overseen. I'm not upset about it; I've never stepped a toe into the server's business because I don't think apartment servers are my thing. If you got zombie mode or whatever, I'd probably be on it in a flash.

I also never said whether the precedent (which was abandoned really fast) of extra-server business reflecting on a player was a good thing or bad thing, or if I had a problem with it. I was stating what I saw happening. There is a problem with it because of it's immense danger and pitfalls. I just recognized that the reality potentially existed now. I said repeatedly that I was surprised by the permaban and would have rather seen public finger-waving so it was up to individual people to decide if they want to associate with Cassy-san, but that ship has sailed.

There is an argument to be made that the conduct of the apartment server administration is a special case since they overtly held close ties to Aurora, sharing lore and whatever else, but that's a useless can of worms to open.

Friendships and associations being destroyed over this is unfortunate, which is the bigger problem I have, but I'll be darned in the bum if we have another 'be nice' thread of my own volition.

[Skull132]

The issue is. I happen to share Doomberg's issues with Cassy. He is not the only one. This is probably why I've been having so many outright mental blocks for actually posting this one.

A militant attitude will end with both sides clashing swords, and absolutely fuck all coming from it. Well, fuck all, except for fun shenanigans like this. And honestly? I'm tired of it. It's childish, gentlemen. And in our mind, Cassy was one of the main driving forces behind fostering such an environment. Something that had been going on since December-ish last year. An issue that I chose to, at the time, to try and manage softly. Partly because I was lacking energy, partly because I wanted to give people a chance to bash out their differences. I have been led to believe that this, right here, would have happened anyways. The only unfortunate fact is the misstep taken by myself and my, our, team on this count in managing this specific issue. The rest? I am fine with the outcome.

Regarding the ban? Initial ban is out of my jurisdiction, and moves were skipped. That's an issue. The fact that we opted to deal with this, in one form or another, is not. Eventually, the matter of people conducting themselves in a manner that Cassy chose to, over her entire stay here, would have been (and was actually planned to be) raised for review. And been dealt with. Rightfully so.

I didn't answer the question, did I? No. I'll be lifting it. But I will reapply it, personally, and coupled with a forum ban the moment Cassy chooses to conduct herself in a manner that, once again, Bokaza wishes to summarize as "Militant". You can debate the definition amongst yourselves, but you know what it means. Enough is enough.

I could go into further detail explaining and ranting about a very specific mindset which is harmful and damaging, and how generally participating in it has generated issues that you gentlemen cannot even imagine for the singular point that: you do not communicate with anyone at all. Period. But, I have neither the will nor the want to educate you gentlemen. Please do that on your own time, and not here.

So, how about we get back to actually playing this god forsaken game, in a server of our own free choosing? How about that? Sounds like a novel ass concept, doesn't it?

[PoZe]

Regulars that leave don't mean anything... They'll just be replaced by more people as newbies become regulars

Lets replace everyone, humans are just miserable resource that was is and will be wasted all humanity history. Staffs are being replaced, players are being replaced. Who are whiteliayed players? I would tell you - whitelisted players are player that approve their level of RP by other players and admins, that means that admins have accepted them and now they are denying them. If you think that loosing old whitelisted players by accidents is normal, then why you have a whitelist.

If staffs think that people can be replaced easily, even old one that were approved by these staffs personally - then they are not different from Politicians that are making wars, social problems, etc.

[canon35]

Damn, went to sleep when this thing when was just starting the 3th page. Now I come back to the 9th.

[Chaznoodles]

The issue is. I happen to share Doomberg's issues with Cassy.

 

I pretty much stopped reading after this. This cries out that there was personal motivation behind the ban being put in place from both Doomberg and yourself.

[PoZe]

If you want to solve this conflict you cannot just replace players - you need to replace staffs involved to. Because you now are pissed off, you have negative opinion to any person that will remind you about Cassie and you will prejudge them by that fact. You need to retire and fill your team with new staffs, that think more opened, that were not influenced by this conflict.

[Frances]

Well.

This is pretty much out of my hands to argue/discuss. The problem I found was the one of a user being banned for doing something on a different community. If you're going to criticize Cassie for her contributions/attitude, it's not something I actually know much about.

I doubt she's coming back, so there's not much of a risk of her "arguing again and getting permabanned", and I think you've sent her a pretty clear message you don't want her around.

Is this what I would've done? No. But I stopped trying to organize the server a while ago, so it's your show now.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone who came to weigh in.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

What an utterly disappointing conclusion...

@ Skull)So, tl;dr you agree with Doomberg completely, think Cassy is the worst and made a "bad environment", and you go back on your word, now only being displeased with the way you handed the ban rather then the ban itself.

For what does the gesture of unbaning her even stand for? Just to silence us? It certainly isn't admission of guilt, or because you now see that she didn't deserve it. Hell, now there's forum ban threats and vague "militant mindset" bans to be handed out, ironically you and Doomberg being the biggest militants here with your riot helmets and iron clad boots. Like, fuck, you literally might as well write "we'll ban you because we don't like you".

But i feel that this discussion is dying down, the staff's badminning is out in the open for everyone to mock, and people are just sort of evidently giving up on you, or realizing they never should have even tried. The fact you seem disinterested in continuing the discussion is just another nail in the coffin

Just one last question, is the ERP laughing still worth a ban? If someone else does this in the future?

(Oh, and JB, we're totally working on house server having zombie and other modes :3)

[Chaznoodles]

What an utterly disappointing conclusion.

 

To me, there doesn't even seem to be a conclusion.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

What an utterly disappointing conclusion.

 

To me, there doesn't even seem to be a conclusion.

OP threw in the towel which means that the thread is most likely ticking to closing time.

But i mean, if Skull hasn't realised that te server is kinda being utterly horrifying (out of server conduct affecting server, moderators applying mentioning duty,obligation, and strong morals, banning people on metagruding reasons, yada yada...) then,like, what the hell will? At this point maybe he just doesn't want to lose favor with people that still support him because he knows he lost ours, kinda like a cripplingly scandalous politician.

I don't think there /will/ be a resolution, as depressing as that sounds. Skull still believes that he was morally justified. And shit, i'm all out of tricks, what's been said has been said yet he keeps on going. What is there more to do then just leave? If i wanted to talk to a wall, i'd go annoy Doomberg on skype

[Rechkalov]

Stop right there, Johny.

This.

What you are doing right now. What you have been doing past several months.

You guys keep on throwing stones everywhere around you. The targets of this righteous fury vary, but the act -your conduct- in itself is the same; the same people always gang up on somebody and talk them to death in a "civil discussion" while escalating drama every given opportunity.

Are you seriously comparing this to a corruption of government at the highest possible level? I suppose that makes you the voice of the people, huh?

Yeah, no. Don't flatter yourself.

This is a game.

Quit blowing this out of proportion, quit pointing fingers, quit throwing stones.

Also, government is a reflection of its people.

[Chaznoodles]

Or, you know, we sort the issue now so we don't get the same storm, instead of brushing it under the carpet like every single other issue that has come up.

[SgtSammac]

Chaz. Sorting issues is different to the blowing out of proportion that is happening here.

Look at this, its nine fucking pages of escalation.

it could have easily been solved in less than 2 pages if people learned to shut the fuck up and listen rather than spout the same stuff over and over again.

Johnny, you say that Skull and Doom are saying the same things over and over again? Well guess what, so are you and your friends. Skull has posted a grand total of THREE times in this thread. Thats hardly saying the same things over and over again.

[Chaznoodles]

Chaz. Sorting issues is different to the blowing out of proportion that is happening here.

Look at this, its nine fucking pages of escalation.

it could have easily been solved in less than 2 pages if people learned to shut the fuck up and listen rather than spout the same stuff over and over again.

Johnny, you say that Skull and Doom are saying the same things over and over again? Well guess what, so are you and your friends. Skull has posted a grand total of THREE times in this thread. Thats hardly saying the same things over and over again.

 

It is nine pages of escalation that could easily have been solved if those that caused the issue had taken notice of the player backlash. Instead, it's being dismissed as 'nine fucking pages of escalation' and that people should 'shut the fuck up'. When there is an issue such as this, which is causing a problem for numerous people, it's not something that I'd want to just be left, like so many other issues. If you take a look through the forums, you'll see countless other issues that have had exactly the same treatment, 'oh you escalated it so we're leaving it', 'shut the fuck up', et cetera.

The reason we keep saying the same things over and over again is because the issue is not being dealt with by those who caused it.