[bad idea] Change ERT weapons to give RnD actual point

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Currently the ERT has access to all high-end weapons. LWAPs, laser cannons, repeating laser pistols. They have the high end of all the weapons we have in our code.

This shoots a part of RnD in the foot. It doesn't make sense that RnD has to "research" these things when they already exist. It also just guarantees the ERT can curbstomp everything before them.

My proposal:

Just give the ERT the submachine guns, laser rifles, and energy carbines. They don't need to have such overwhelming firepower. Let the laser cannons and other super-OP items be created from RnD. Being faced with a grave threat, this gives the station incentive to cooperate with mining and science to get the super-weapons, or actually makes ERT vulnerable if antagonists are properly entrenched.

ERT's are literally just reskinned deathsquads right now. Given how often they brutally beat people, they're even played the same.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Marlon Phoenix

[Ove]

Quite frankly, I'm going to support this. I've seen the ERT played exactly like a DS multiple times on this server, and every time it's nothing but the members completely disregarding everything they should actually uphold.

[Owen]

That seems like a good idea. I do agree that the ERT even in small numbers can just fuck up a huge amount of people. Like a cult round that happened yesterday, two ERT wiped out a massive cult. It would also make more sense because right now R&D are researching things that have already been invented elsewhere.

[Frances]

ERT are too stronk. An organized group of people armed with ranged weapons and stun weaponry will always be a major threat to, well, anything, but from what I've seen when the ERT actually moves together it tends to be a curb-stomp.

Hopefully nerfing their equipment a bit along with the common expectation that the average ERT member is a retard should help even the odds a little.

[Alberyk]

I am nearly sure that the ert only have access to those weapons if admins open the admin's armory. Their normal armory is composed of the energy rifle, laser rifle, energy pistols, the submachine guns, ion rifles and energy carbines. Anything else only happens if the admins wishes to open the armory, which I did see happen only in events or with the sol strike team.

[Waff-AI]

Having been part of the two-man ERT called in a couple days ago, wiping out the cult was easy enough with submachine guns and basic laser rifles. Why overdo it? I support this. It makes no sense to have all that excess, let alone from a lore point of view.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I am nearly sure that the ert only have access to those weapons if admins open the admin's armory. Their normal armory is composed of the energy rifle, laser rifle, energy pistols, the submachine guns, ion rifles and energy carbines. Anything else only happens if the admins wishes to open the armory, which I did see happen only in events or with the sol strike team.

 

Even it being in the admin armory is dumb. What the frick frack are we researching and discovering if some grunts from the Odin get the exact same crap for no cost? They're not exactly exotic weapons if you leave them out in the open on a table.

[Skull132]

Just give the ERT the submachine guns, laser rifles, and energy carbines.

 

Okay, done. I didn't even need to change the code or anything to do this. Allow me to show you: http://puu.sh/lW3Mv/961651dbb4.png

The only things here that aren't on your list are pistols, erifles (which I still don't know if they work or not! But they're rarely/never used), and ion rifles (which I will say should still remain here). ERT has no direct access to the weapons you are concerned about. The only two ways to acquire these weapons as ERT, while gearing up, are to either breach the admin armoury, at which point you can expect anything from an antagban to a short timeban, or have an admin around to actually open it. And about the admin armoury: having them there is purely for admin convenience. If we're at a point in time and space where we want to open it, but we'd have it removed, then don't you think we'd just spawn the weapons we want in anyways? It just reduces our legwork. Plus, I don't even remember when the last time we opened those darn doors was.

SO BASICALLY: the suggestion is already implemented.

Show me the laser cannons and rapid fire lasers and pulse weapons that ERT has access to, as you claim they do. Please.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just give the ERT the submachine guns, laser rifles, and energy carbines.

 

Okay, done. I didn't even need to change the code or anything to do this. Allow me to show you: http://puu.sh/lW3Mv/961651dbb4.png

The only things here that aren't on your list are pistols, erifles (which I still don't know if they work or not! But they're rarely/never used), and ion rifles (which I will say should still remain here). ERT has no direct access to the weapons you are concerned about. The only two ways to acquire these weapons as ERT, while gearing up, are to either breach the admin armoury, at which point you can expect anything from an antagban to a short timeban, or have an admin around to actually open it. And about the admin armoury: having them there is purely for admin convenience. If we're at a point in time and space where we want to open it, but we'd have it removed, then don't you think we'd just spawn the weapons we want in anyways? It just reduces our legwork. Plus, I don't even remember when the last time we opened those darn doors was.

SO BASICALLY: the suggestion is already implemented.

Show me the laser cannons and rapid fire lasers and pulse weapons that ERT has access to, as you claim they do. Please.

 

They're still sprawled out open on the table for all to see. By virtue of being there, they "have access to them". The Odin shouldn't have them at all. Hide these out in another non-cc hidden room on the z-level?

[Skull132]

You mean this table? http://puu.sh/lW4AZ/30fc7410bb.png

In the room with no windows? Visible only to ghosts? How on Earth is this an issue? And there's a difference between "having access" and "having direct access". The admin armoury gets opened very rarely: it does not, has never, and will never factor into your regular ERT dispatch. I do not see why having them there for convenience once we do need heavier firepower is an issue. Also, for hiding them out. Again, convenience. There is no way to transport a large amount of items via admincommands. If they were moved to a room detached from CC, then we might as well start spawning shit in.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

My point is that these weapons shouldn't exist outside the aurora save for the LWAPs.

[Skull132]

Lore wise, perhaps. But Central Command is a hodgepodge of IC and OOC areas. The surgery and chemistry areas on CC make no sense either: surely you'd have actual medical stations closeby, so you wouldn't need to staff a C3 station with surgeons, and surely chemicals for their medbay would be manufactured off-site. But the areas exist, mainly, for admin convenience.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Lore wise, perhaps. But Central Command is a hodgepodge of IC and OOC areas. The surgery and chemistry areas on CC make no sense either: surely you'd have actual medical stations closeby, so you wouldn't need to staff a C3 station with surgeons, and surely chemicals for their medbay would be manufactured off-site. But the areas exist, mainly, for admin convenience.

 

They do make sense when you remember that the Odin is filled with over a thousand people and residents and is a larger station than the Aurora by right. v_v

[Guest]

Quite frankly, I'm going to support this. I've seen the ERT played exactly like a DS multiple times on this server, and every time it's nothing but the members completely disregarding everything they should actually uphold.

 

Report crapERT on the forums so they can be job-banned. This is not an issue with balance, this is an issue with ERT pretending they're deathsquad. Which is a roleplay issue.

Furthermore. LWAPs, laser cannons, x-ray guns, SAWs, combat shotguns, are all EXCLUSIVE to the admin armory. It never opens unless an admin themselves hits the button to open it. Or if a shitter C4s the admin armory shutter. The latter is a job-bannable thing, so you should honestly report it if you see it. I basically sat in this screen for like 2 hours as I was RPing, so I didn't post this in time, oh well.

And uh, just to touch a bit on why ERT are seemingly so overpowered.

There's the point where the ERT are generally intended to be equipped to handle just about any situation, and they're supposed to be trained for that. Sort of like soldiers of any caliber? Secondly, ERT are not meant to be "retarded". They're supposed to be reasonably competent at their job, be that damage assessment, risk elimination, engineering detail, and so on. Individuals typically specialize, but it's usually up to the ERT leader to do the work in organizing the team.

I've seen numerous complaints about security "steamrolling" antagonists, too. In a good 90% of the cases, security did what the antag did not and planned their approach for dealing with threats.

It's honestly more awkward to see that security can be more organized than individual antagonists can by themselves. And I think that's the issue. Teamwork's OP, but why nerf it?

BY THE WAY. I exclusively use energyrifle/SMG combo because it is ungodly amazing. E-rifles have zero firedelay and they're normal-sized items. You shoot lasers as fast as you can click. SMGs are also good because, hey, they're a NT-carbon copy of the C-20r, but way better because 9mm boxes are more ammo efficient.

My only suggestion for antags is that they need to learn to gank. Like, not in shitty, put-you-out-of-the-round sort of ways, but in interesting ways for the sake of the antagonist's progression for the sake of conflict, yo.

The element of surprise is what is important. Expecting people to bow down to you and call you Emperor of the NSS Aurora when you haven't even done anything to deserve it yet is just silly.

The only way to tip the balance or disrupt the meta as an antag is to literally throw your weight around and see what amount of force actually works. Above all, be a good sport.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Guest

[Skull132]

Not really, no. Odin is a command, control, and communications station. I doubt it has a population residing on it.

And my point stands. The admin armoury exists for OOC purposes. Its name should make it clear enough: "the admin armoury."

[Alberyk]

Research can't fabricate all the weapons that exist in the admin armory, there are things like the pulse rifle, L6 SAW, x-ray gun, Colt M1911 and etc. Also, the energy rifles works perfectly.

[Skull132]

As for ERT kicking ass. That's the point of it. ERT is designed to force a paradigm shift in the round: it is made to force the hunter to become the hunted once more. They exist to introduce new circumstances to the round.

It should also be noted that you cannot deal with ERT as you would deal with resistance on the station (security). They require a slightly different approach, if the antagonist actually wishes to engage in combat with them. Though, if you take note, almost every ERT mission follows the same template: arrive and then swarm the areas of reported trouble. This mold makes them easy to avoid, and gives you the capacity to fight against them.

[Guest]

"Arrive at a peaceful solution with superior firepower."

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Not really, no. Odin is a command, control, and communications station. I doubt it has a population residing on it.

And my point stands. The admin armoury exists for OOC purposes. Its name should make it clear enough: "the admin armoury."

 

Someone doesn't read the lore.

The Odin is one of those stations people live on. It can house people, and it does house people. It has a stable population. If you work on the Aurora, you can live on the Odin. It's a habitation station. Just like the capital of the sol alliance, which is a space station, which is a mini-city in space.

[Frances]

So the problem seems to be that the ERT is genuinely too strong with regular gear.

Can we have them infiltrate combat zones Naked Snake style? Give them pants and a knife, and force them to procure their own weapons on-site.

[Zundy]

So the problem seems to be that the ERT is genuinely too strong with regular gear.

Can we have them infiltrate combat zones Naked Snake style? Give them pants and a knife, and force them to procure their own weapons on-site.

 

Yeah don't forget that the ERT can also be called in the case of an engineering emergency (engines not online and there's no engineers station-side) or medical emergencies (mass injury/infections with no medical staff). Having them arrive with no gear sort of defeats the object of even having them.

[EvilBrage]

I've never had a problem dividing and conquering the ERT; they're still very much vulnerable to the inventive antagonist. Not to mention, you get quite the advance notice that they're coming, so it's literally a piece of cake to set a trap that will utterly cripple the team (if not outright destroy it.) RnD needs more objects that aren't weapons to have "an actual point." The material scanners are a brilliant example - but the scientists who comprise the department generally treat it like a gun factory.

[CakeIsOssim]

If the purpose of this suggestion was to remove the admin armory, what does ERT have to do with it? Another point: if this suggestion is to both somehow nerf ERT and remove the admin armory, have you not just included two suggestions in the same topic?

ERT is meant to specialize in all things emergencies. Hence, Emergency Response Team. I think it's very rare that you get a full team that can do everything and fix everyone's problems. Usually, when someone calls for an ERT, it's for a specific purpose. Riots/terrorists? Security response. Meteors/Nonfunctioning engine? Engineering response. Virus/mass casuality event? Medical response. If you've got a team consisting of all three, it's usually only a trooper or two that can perform each task instead of four or five that can all focus on the same thing. Once the ERT splits up, they become practically powerless. Hence, Emergency Response Team.

As for the admin armory, what Skull said. Though, I'm not an admin, not even once have I ever seen it opened on my year of being with Aurora. I've never even seen it get C4'd open, but I know it happens, and those people are usually punished. If you want a reason for them to be there without it breaking lore, just say, "oh, there isn't actually any advanced weaponry on the Odin."

[Skull132]

This topic lacks a purpose, unlike the admin armoury it's about. I don't even have a rebuttal for the involvement of RnD. I could say that even if we forced ERT to use RnD, they'd probably end up raiding cargo or sec, as both provide adequate firepower faster, but since we already determined that ERT has access to standard weaponry, the point is moot.

As for ERT being too powerful: that's the point. They are meant to be a challenge. Either adapt to it, or don't. The choice is yours.

[LordFowl]

In my experience ERT has been underpowered. As Brage said you get advance notice, they often are understaffed (Most ERT teams I see consist of 1-3 people) and they arrive at the same point every time. And the Admin armoury is for all intents and purposes an OoC convenience. It's behind the curtain. Most of the Odin is behind the curtain stuff, and removing these infrastructures would only damage things like special events that involve the Odin.