Vampire Thrall Murders Vampire, Mods say Okay - Implant ._.

[JKJudgeX]

Round Time: 6:53 AM (End)

Characters:

Sharp Max (HoS)

Vyleon Black (Me, Vampire, Scientist)

Mods:

Garnascus

AimlessAnalyst

Serveris6

Round Type:

Vampire

Here goes:

I was a vampire. We had a good round. I was captured, but escaped. I managed to Enthrall Sharp Max (HOS) with 300 of my very useful and needed blood points (he slipped out of the first attempt earlier).

Apparently, the HoS asked the mods if he could just kill me instead of obeying me after he was enthralled, since he had a loyalty implant. They ruled that he could. So, when I tell him to fight on my behalf because they are coming for me, he just goes "you forgot one thing, I have a loyalty implant"... and lasered me to death on the spot while I was unarmed. BEFORE I asked him to fight them, I told him to "get me out of here", as I wanted him to just escort me to the shuttle. He said "hold on a minute", left, came back, and then the above took place. I only told him to fight on my behalf once I was cornered, after huge delays while I'm sure he was asking the mods if his implant overrode enthralling.

There was no good RP. There's nowhere that says a loyalty implant overrides an enthralling, and on the subject, enthralling heads is listed as a good strategy on SS13 wikis talking about vampires.

I used some language, but didn't call anyone a name when I reported this because I was upset, and further upset by all of the mods coming to this agreement, which is really garbage and further shackles vampires, making their awesome RP-enabling enthrall ability less useful.

So a loyalty implant, then, is invulnerability to all forms of hypnotic suggestion?

If this is how you guys want to play it, it's your server, that's fine, but it should at least be listed, and honestly, for a rule change that big, I would suggest modifying the code to PREVENT ENTHRALLING people with loyalty implants.

Even if you want to say he can refuse my orders, that's one whole thing... "No, my implant won't let me do that." is a far cry different from murdering your master.

Anyway, super lame conclusion to an otherwise fun round.

I feel like there was heavy player favoritism going on here, and definitely some valid-hunting behavior.

From another wiki (I couldn't find anything about this on Aurora's wiki)...:

"Enthrall is a major investment, yet enthralling the captain or HoS can provide you with prisoners and access to guns without raising much suspicion, in other words repaying the blood cost many times over. Remember that enslaving somebody doesn't work instantly, so the target should be incapacitated and out of sight before you start the conversion."

Further, it lists enthralled characters with the antagonist at the end of the round, and let's remember that the loyalty implants can and will stop culting and revving... if the intention of the enthrall ability was for it to be blocked or impeded by the loyalty implant, the player would have been informed or it would have been impossible to do.

I'm not after any kind of punitive action for anyone involved, the mods told the guy it was okay, so, it's not his fault, but there needs to be a wiki page or a line of text somewhere that says "Hey vampires, don't enthrall loyalty implant dudes, they'll straight murder you"... or, preferably, this player and these mods need corrected and told that enthralling works on everyone (and it is usually amazingly fun RP if someone goes along with it instead of just shooting you with a laser while you're unarmed and talking to them). It also would have been fair and reasonable to tell the vampire in a private message that his hold over his subject was not as strong as usual due to the implant, or something, rather than just letting this go down like this.

[Dreamix]

Well, no one asked me to check, but that's what happens during enthralling.

"Follow their every command." It's kind of lame, that someone allowed the HoS to kill the vampire.

Doesn't 'revolution-ing/ culting/ something else' override the loyalty implant?

[TishinaStalker]

Can confirm that rev and culting does not override loyalty implant.

[Garnascus]

Well, no one asked me to check, but that's what happens during enthralling.

"Follow their every command." It's kind of lame, that someone allowed the HoS to kill the vampire.

Doesn't 'revolution-ing/ culting/ something else' override the loyalty implant?

 

The admin online at the time "aimelessanalyst" AKA jennalele reckoned that the loyalty implant overrides enthralling. The problem is this particular topic has been brought up a few times in scattered incidents among staff, with different staff members being around for it or arguments shifting around it with no clear consensus every being given out ( or communicated at least).

The last time i remember discussing this, the trending argument at the time was that mind-slaving and a loyalty implant have a leapfrog effect on one another and is indeed the argument i most subscribe to. The problem however gets a lot murkier as you pointed out here dreamix. From the vampire's point of view here it looks like the mind-slaving works perfectly, you even get the red V symbol above their head indicating they are a thrall to you. However if i check the thrall through VV i find that their loyalty implant is still intact.

Wtf does a loyalty implant do again? the only thing we have really been able to agree on as staff is that no matter what all your actions have to be for the greater good of nanotrasen, as you can imagine theres a firm degree of wiggle room here but nothing too crazy (we wont let you lawyer this to antag of course or execute people). soooo is this in conflict with a mind-slaving? is it smart enough to recognize the magic of a vampire slaving it? does it "trick" the host into believe that serving their vampiric master IS for the good of nanotrasen?

If it where 100% up to me at the time i would have said "mind slaving overrides loyalty implant" mostly because i think its more "fun". At the very least i do think its incredibly unfair for us to tell players "loyalty implant over rides a mind-slaving" when from a mechanical and in-game point of view it looks like the opposite.

[Guest]

isn't it common knowledge that loyalty implants are supposed to be protection from any and all subversive effects? there's a reason why there's a different flavor text with cult conversions, same with rev. there's literally no reason why vampires should be the exception.

do not forget that vampire is an ancient /tg/ game mode that has since had no updates for it here, so the fact that a HoS or the captain can be enthralled with an implant is a massive code oversight.

[Garnascus]

i /think/ you're correct delta. My biggest problem is just the frustrating disconnect there is between it looking like it works IC but OOC the implant still overrides it. i would be fine if we just did some code magic to say "you resist the enthralling because of your implant" but we are kinda strapped as far as our code situation goes (which isnt anyones fault!)

[JKJudgeX]

The loyalty implant was originally JUST for preventing revving. When rev stopped being a standard game mode, loyalty implants were even removed from the station fora while. Then it worked to prevent culting. If the person who invented the roundtype wanted to have the loyalty implant work against vampire enthralling, he/she would have just used the same logic as in either of those examples... so it's pretty clear to me that this kind of antag-ing is meant to be unblockable by loyalty implant.

1) It's metaphysical (culting is as well, but being done just by a person with a rune, not by a magical being)

2) It's unprecedented for a vampire's thrall to be able to abandon him without the destruction of the vampire in any literature/movie/comic/etc.

3) This effectively makes heads 100% un-antaggable.

4) it costs blood. It's not free or reusable, and you spend the blood if the person escapes the attempt, too.

5) It is one of the very few things that can skip eye protection, which the HoS and Captain get by default.

6) The coders could have very, very easily made the loyalty implant reject vampirism.

7) The chaplain has magical immunity to it, why would a loyalty implant work as well as being "Holy"?

8) And most importantly, thralling is fun, and it's a great RP opportunity curve-ball, that is in my opinion the primary power of the vampire that defines the mode... please don't let the stupid, freely obtained, boring loyalty implant overpower it, "just because".

9) The language. "Follow their every command" is absolute, as opposed to a loyalty implant which just makes you act towards the benefit of NT. I think it might be painful for a loyalty implanted person to "follow their every command", but it doesn't look like any kind of suggestion to me.

I get it, you want to play the goodguy so you picked Head or Security... that's fine... but it shouldn't be across the board immunity to subversion and having to RP outside of that little box from time to time. Wrangling in mods to agree that you should shoot the guy that thralled you to death was not really good SS13 play, nor good RP, in my opinion.

[Alberyk]

1) It's metaphysical (culting is as well, but being done just by a person with a rune, not by a magical being)

Implants will remove the cult status and prevent conversion as being told before.

 

3) This effectively makes heads 100% un-antaggable.

Not all heads of staff are implanted, and you can remove implants. So just going straight to the captain and getting all access and an easy game should be far more challenging.

 

5) It is one of the very few things that can skip eye protection, which the HoS and Captain get by default.

Sunglasses don't stop glare or any other kind of vampire skill at all.

[Guest]

I will state in a previous incident, when I was HoS and was thralled, Doomberg or Skull told me that neither necessarily overrides the other, and that I was invited to either follow the loyalty implant, or go insane from the mental stress, or be a thrall.

[JKJudgeX]

I will state in a previous incident, when I was HoS and was thralled, Doomberg or Skull told me that neither necessarily overrides the other, and that I was invited to either follow the loyalty implant, or go insane from the mental stress, or be a thrall.

 

Well, like I've said, if that's how it's to be played, there should be at a minimum, ample, and clear information about this given to the vampire player so that he doesn't blow his round when the HoS decides to murder him post-"enthralling". Most people who know anything about vampire lore understand a thrall to be somewhere between insanely devoted and a mindless, instruction-following automaton.

You can enthrall synthetics and borgs and everything, but, no, the loyalty implant... I'm okay with the loyalty implant being strong, but if it's THIS strong, I think nobody should start with one and they should have to go through the trouble of getting one installed... otherwise, it's "easy mode", which is what logic gets thrown at any antag player seeking levity.

Enthralling takes a good squirt of time. It isn't super long, but, it's long enough that I failed a couple of attempts last night even after my victim was knocked down by a screech... it's not like you can just fly in out of nowhere and enthrall someone. You have to be alone with them, and they need to be incapacitated. At that point, you could just as easily murder them, usually. I could have picked up the HoS's weapon and lasered his face after I screeched him...

But instead I spent 240 blood and enthralled him hoping to make for something more interesting than getting my face blown off by him.

I think allowing it to be played this way sets a pretty bad precedent for future vampire rounds. Only people privy to this thread know that he implant can not only override enthralling, but can override it so much that murdering the guy that tried to enthrall you is A-OK.

When I first made this thread, I thought about asking for the HoS to lose his whitelist, because I really felt like he was valid-hunting more than anything else... I only changed my mind because he apparently had mod-permission to go straight to murder.

[Guest]

Mental stress is independent from subversive anti-corporation metaphysical elements. The former comes naturally with the job, as the implant is not designed to control chemical imbalances in the brain due to emotion.

Loyalty implants are supposed to stop the HoS/captain from being mindcontrolled or brainwashed against the corp. You can pick literally anyone else to enthrall and they would have no excuse to defy you.

Sounds like the OP came across a situation where there's no other answer than, "You were shit outta luck, best wishes next time".

 

When I first made this thread, I thought about asking for the HoS to lose his whitelist, because I really felt like he was valid-hunting more than anything else... I only changed my mind because he apparently had permission to go straight to murder.

 

Although, if I might add, shiiiiiiet, this is vindictive, isn't it?

[Blingx3]

hello, I played the HoS in that round, and I'm sorry if that round ended the way it did, and I wish that this problem about implant is sorted out by the lore team, or admins so we can avoid this in the future

[Alberyk]

You can enthrall synthetics and borgs and everything, but, no, the loyalty implant... I'm okay with the loyalty implant being strong, but if it's THIS strong, I think nobody should start with one and they should have to go through the trouble of getting one installed... otherwise, it's "easy mode", which is what logic gets thrown at any antag player seeking levity.

Enthralling takes a good squirt of time. It isn't super long, but, it's long enough that I failed a couple of attempts last night even after my victim was knocked down by a screech... it's not like you can just fly in out of nowhere and enthrall someone. You have to be alone with them, and they need to be incapacitated. At that point, you could just as easily murder them, usually. I could have picked up the HoS's weapon and lasered his face after I screeched him...

 

Except by the fact that borgs are immune to most mind controlling skills and even vampire stuns, you can probably enthralls ipcs because of oversight on the code or the same logic that allows them to be cultists. Also, only three jobs are loyalty implanted in the entire crew, which are ones with rather important access and duties, so if you want to mind control the captain or the head of security a challenge should exist, rather than just managing to stun or be alone with them.

Besides, if you use glare, there is probably enough time to use enthrall against them, or just usying hypnotize to prevent anyone for doing anything

[Guest Menown]

The simple solution for this would be the keep it as implants resisting the enthralling, but giving the vampire something like, 'something inside [name] is resisting you.' and then stopping it without spending the blood. It'd be much easier that way.

[JKJudgeX]

The simple solution for this would be the keep it as implants resisting the enthralling, but giving the vampire something like, 'something inside [name] is resisting you.' and then stopping it without spending the blood. It'd be much easier that way.

 

I agree that this is the way to do it if you really want to make goofy-assed loyalty implants so powerful that we consider NT implanted people actually ENTHRALLED by NT, which is never how they are actually played...

Also, though, if someone is implanted it would be better if the enthrall attempt never even started, because you bite someone to do it... so it totally blows your cover if they aren't converted.

I really think there should be at least something that overrides the loyalty implant. You guys are making it out to be way, way more powerful than it should be, imo...

Even if enthralling doesn't wipe it out, it should result in the character having convoluted logic and twisting his anti-NT actions to seem pro-NT to himself, or having self-destructive conflict relating to it. I really think that killing the guy who enthralled you is way out of bounds, though.

[Guest]

I agree that this is the way to do it if you really want to make goofy-assed loyalty implants so powerful that we consider NT implanted people actually ENTHRALLED by NT, which is never how they are actually played...

Also, though, if someone is implanted it would be better if the enthrall attempt never even started, because you bite someone to do it... so it totally blows your cover if they aren't converted.

I really think there should be at least something that overrides the loyalty implant. You guys are making it out to be way, way more powerful than it should be, imo...

Even if enthralling doesn't wipe it out, it should result in the character having convoluted logic and twisting his anti-NT actions to seem pro-NT to himself, or having self-destructive conflict relating to it. I really think that killing the guy who enthralled you is way out of bounds, though.

 

1.) It'd be weird and grimdark edgy, and nobody wants to do the whole "I'm a corporate mindslave!" because i'm pretty sure the company wouldn't make an implant that causes their employees to act like corporate slaves. Not interesting to roleplay.

2.) Or just do a check for whether or not the victim is implanted. If implanted, it refunds a portion of the blood back with a reprimanding message to the silly goose that thought they could mindslave someone who was loyal to the corporation. If not, proceed as normal.

3.) Besides surgically removing it? It's actually really easy to do it, if you're not an unrobust antag.

4.) Naw, that's inconsistent. If a loyalty implanted person gets a conversion attempt, they get a message that they should be "fucking up and utterly DESTROYING the cult at all costs, because it's evil and bad." Should be the same concept with vampires, considering vampires are sort of magical, and so are cultists?

[JKJudgeX]

Loyalty implants override cult - SS13 stops you from being culted.

Loyalty implants do not override Enthralling - SS13 allows you to be enthralled.

The RP should fit what the game is configured to display. When that dude has a Vampire icon on him, players are going to trust him to play the role the game is telling him that he has. Nobody wants to have to know all the weird errata side rules that the game doesn't even consider...

Your NT Implant makes you loyal to NT, it doesn't make you immune to being charmed by someone. At most, it should cause conflict if I instruct someone to murder a crewmember... "Help me get out of here" should have really worked, and no, when you really like someone you don't genie-twist their requests...

[Guest]

Loyalty implants override cult - SS13 stops you from being culted.

Loyalty implants do not override Enthralling - SS13 allows you to be enthralled.

 

Explain to me how this is consistent.

[Frances]

Loyalty implants override cult - SS13 stops you from being culted.

Loyalty implants do not override Enthralling - SS13 allows you to be enthralled.

 

Explain to me how this is consistent.

I'm pretty sure it's an inconsistency within the code, but the rules drawn from it would be consistent.

Basically: you get a message saying the implant makes you resist: you resist. You don't get anything/you get a regular conversion message: the implant has been subverted.

I obviously hope nobody gets punished for this (it seems like a honest misunderstanding), but it would probably be easier to follow the actual code functions in the future rather than rely on unwritten conventions (and if needed for consistency, fix the code so implants always work?)

[JKJudgeX]

Loyalty implants override cult - SS13 stops you from being culted.

Loyalty implants do not override Enthralling - SS13 allows you to be enthralled.

 

Explain to me how this is consistent.

I'm pretty sure it's an inconsistency within the code, but the rules drawn from it would be consistent.

Basically: you get a message saying the implant makes you resist: you resist. You don't get anything/you get a regular conversion message: the implant has been subverted.

I obviously hope nobody gets punished for this (it seems like a honest misunderstanding), but it would probably be easier to follow the actual code functions in the future rather than rely on unwritten conventions (and if needed for consistency, fix the code so implants always work?)

 

I don't think it's an inconsistency within the code... I write code myself and I don't see why someone would have just forgotten, much less a community of coders neglected, for all this time, to go back and put the condition in for enthrall to not affect implanted people.

But yes, I think we really should play to the code, and not override clear visual indicators arbitrarily. Pretty sure enthrall is supposed to work on borgs and such, too...

[Guest Menown]

If we played to the code, people would survive in space for upwards of thirty seconds before they die, when realistically their lungs would burst from the pressure and their eyeballs would explode.

[Frances]

It is essentially an inconsistency between vamp and cult, though. One arbitrary form of magic can convert implanted individuals, whereas another cannot. It's counter-intuitive because you essentially have to memorize instances where loyalty implants are effective or not rather than having any sort of general rule of thumb to go by.

Loyalty implants can be great for putting captured antags back into the round but I don't think they deserve a place on head roles anymore. That's probably a conversation for another thread, though.

 

If we played to the code, people would survive in space for upwards of thirty seconds before they die, when realistically their lungs would burst from the pressure and their eyeballs would explode.

Strawman. We're not looking at an issue of realism here, both conversions are done through magic.

[Guest Menown]

Frances, my point is that the code isn't always reliably how these things work. Because Cultists and Vampires are both able to convert, there's no established reason why, since one does and one doesn't, as per the code, given the control remains the same for both, ie the converted/enthralled parties having implants. Discussing this is pointless unless we get a Dev interested in changing it, or a Lore-Dev willing to write something out that explains it.

[JKJudgeX]

Frances, my point is that the code isn't always reliably how these things work. Because Cultists and Vampires are both able to convert, there's no established reason why, since one does and one doesn't, as per the code, given the control remains the same for both, ie the converted/enthralled parties having implants. Discussing this is pointless unless we get a Dev interested in changing it, or a Lore-Dev willing to write something out that explains it.

 

Why can't we just go by the assumption that the code and the lore are in congruence? That's the easiest, and most sensible way to do it.

Maybe converting somebody to a cult isn't as strong as enthrall because [insert lore reasons of your favorite flavor]. Enthrall works by [insert lore explanation that makes it so your loyalty implant doesn't protect you enough to not give you a traitor overlay].

Either side of that means you're just arbitrarily choosing things, so, why arbitrarily prefer and insist upon lore that's counter to the way the game has been programmed when you could have just as easily chosen a sensible, logical reason that doesn't make SS13's programmers/interface "wrong"/confusing?

And to address more of the above, there are fewer vampires and thralls than there are cultists, generally, since cult can very quickly, and essentially "freely" convert people, it makes sense for it to be easily defended against or dispelled. When a vampire has to drain a whole body of its blood to even attempt to convert you one single, breakable, non-refundable time, breaking out of that is highly destructive to the gamemode. By comparison, the cultists have to get their words together, draw a rune, and set up a cultist factory. Makes 100% gameplay balance sense, and usually in RPGs when we have "kinda weird" things like this, we explain them with lore, instead of contradicting them with lore.

[Zundy]

If we played to the code, people would survive in space for upwards of thirty seconds before they die, when realistically their lungs would burst from the pressure and their eyeballs would explode.

 

Realistically it'd be something along the lines of two minutes as none of those things happen in spess because human bodies are robust as fuck. J-just sayin m-man.