more lethal pistols

[Outboarduniform]

seriously guys. when you're aiming at someone's head with a pistol it shouldn't take more than ONE shot of your pistol to finish them off (unless they have armor). Same might go for Mk58 pistols , it might have a small chance of killing someone (rubber bullet or not , they can still kill). Also , unless you're using a shotgun/very powerful magnum pistol or revolver , you shouldn't blow someone's head off at close range.

just something to think about , considering how ballisticurity is now a thing

[Carver]

I still don't get why we have rubber bullets by default when we have tasers, what's the point of a defensive ballistic sidearm to complement the non-lethals if it's loaded with non-lethal rounds anyways?

[Guest Menown]

I still don't get why we have rubber bullets by default when we have tasers, what's the point of a defensive ballistic sidearm to complement the non-lethals if it's loaded with non-lethal rounds anyways?

 

Because rubber bullets put people down quicker than a taser. You should only be drawing that pistol whenever it's a life or death situation anyway. Non-lethal ammo or not, the second you point your gun at something, you need to be prepared to destroy whatever you're pointing at. That's gun safety 101.

[Carver]

Then you realize your entire arsenal is worthless against armour because noone gave you proper ammo for self-defense.

[Guest Menown]

Then you realize your entire arsenal is worthless against armour because noone gave you proper ammo for self-defense.

 

That's false. Effectively through the new meta, you can disarm people easily with the rubber bullets if you target the hands. They still break bones, so you're able to break the fuck out of their hands so they can't do jack. Yes, you're neutered against heisters or mercs, but that's the fault of a lack of lethal armaments readily available to officers. Imho, officers should get one mag of rubber and lethal ammunition, but until that changes, there's little that can be done.

[Carver]

I'm more a fan of just having it all be lethal to begin with and having rubbers as the side option for the oddly pacifistic character sorts, but that's mainly because I prefer my handbreaking to be done in one bullet instead of several. Hit % is already horrific on baycode as is without factoring in the lower % due to targeting hands. I don't get why you call this new meta when I already made a point of targeting hands in the old code anyways, and it was actually more effective then.

As for OP since we've gone off-topic, I've heard there's some execution move of sorts involving ranged weapons and neckgrabs but I've yet to see it actually done so I'm doubting whether it exists. Main reason headshots don't instantly kill like they realistically would is "balancing", though TBH I wouldn't mind guns being a lot more lethal. The reason the heads pop off is just funny coding.

[Guest]

Fun fact: You can still suicide with rubber bullets. And yep, three rounds are enough to bring down most opponents with the detective's rubber firing colt. I've yet to see lethal rounds in action because I didn't need them so far.

[UnknownMurder]

I'm not up for Security having more lethal but... We don't need more lethal pistols... They have plenty of lethal weaponry in Armory. Notice how I said weaponry, I mean rifles and such. But if you truly need more?

Here are the places you can go to, Cargo Bay and Research. They have lethal pistols.

[Guest]

Tac-equipment has a small 1x1 reinforced glass 'locker' with lethal ammunition for your sidearm. .45 caliber. So in the event you do have to kill a crewmember, the ammunition is stored there.

But you shouldn't be counting on it, since you're civil security and not the military. You don't go to work expecting to counter criminals with lethal force. You're armed as per the standard to nonlethally detain anyone that could foreseeably be a problem or just is, a problem. In the event of encountering an opponent in armor designed to counter bullets, you grab energy-based weaponry. Either to cripple or to just... fry them alive, I guess?

The game balance is mostly focused around situational nonsense. Learn when to engage and when not to. Expect to die to the hardsuited guy with oxycodone pumping through their system, though.

[Carver]

Wouldn't really consider it efficient property defense against intruders when the on-site Private Security is generally helpless against any surprises.

[Guest]

It's the ass-end of the Middle Rim. Under normal circumstances, ships would be detected by the Icarus and the Aurora (including its Private Security force) would be given forward warning to be prepared.

Keep in mind that heist/nuke ops are not canonically common. A security guard would not be expected to stand a chance against heavily armed militant combatants without being properly armed to fight it themselves, in terms of tactical odds.

[Dreamix]

Wouldn't really consider it efficient property defense against intruders when the on-site Private Security is generally helpless against any surprises.

B-but the Icarus, or whatever the drone ship is. It's not like NanoTrasen expects their stations to be raided by intruders everyday. And even if it happens, it's still much easier and cheaper to have one big ERT unit in a region, than many, many, many very small trained security teams with decent armories.

Edit: Damn it, Delta.

[Carver]

It's not like putting real bullets in the pistols makes Security suddenly heavily armed and able to take on everything, but it's still a step up from packing atleast three different redundant tools that do the same thing. It's even worse nowadays for Detectives, who used to be able to reliably defend themselves from attackers.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Ballistics have more OOMPH. They can knock someone on their ass faster than regular tasers. They are a form of flavor and are a step above regular tasers.

You already have incredibly lethal weapons available to security officers. You get them when the Warden unlocks them. Given how often and how eagerly regular security utilizes ballistic pistols in bizarre circumstances "STOP ARRESTING HIM FOR SLANDER FELLOW OFFICER I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR ARREST I SAID STOP OR I'LL SHOOT" (this happens to me) and how loosey goosey security is on the whole "Don't loot the dead and use their weapons" we don't need to encourage more incentives for security to gain even more of a leverage than they already have.

This isn't space America. You are expected to keep a bunch of nerd scientists and incompetent assistants in line while breaking up blood feuds between the lesbians in medical as they whisper death threats.

You have a locked armory in case anything more serious happens, and the ability to get support from CC by literally purchasing lethal weapons from cargo using supply points. It does not make sense to run around with lethal weapons during green alert.

[Carver]

This isn't space America. You are expected to keep a bunch of nerd scientists and incompetent assistants in line while breaking up blood feuds between the lesbians in medical as they whisper death threats.

The point of private security is protection of facilities and employees, I don't know what kind of cheap-ass place NT runs but if you break into an actual research facility I don't imagine the Security there will have rubbers in their firearms.

Just because it so happens that average SS13 players don't know anything but "Shoot first, ask later", doesn't mean Security as a whole should be given inferior tools. If anything it just shows that Security might need a whitelist sometime down the line because you can't trust people to be responsible.

[EvilBrage]

In no particular order here, so we can get a better perspective on this.

 

seriously guys. when you're aiming at someone's head with a pistol it shouldn't take more than ONE shot of your pistol to finish them off (unless they have armor).

 

False. A single gunshot to the head with most calibers of weapon won't kill an individual instantly; about 10% of people shot in the head actually survive. The question is whether or not one can obtain medical treatment quick enough. What it WILL do is incapacitate you instantly (that is, you'll be down on the ground quicker than you can say "sec to bar.")

 

Fun fact: You can still suicide with rubber bullets. And yep, three rounds are enough to bring down most opponents with the detective's rubber firing colt. I've yet to see lethal rounds in action because I didn't need them so far.

 

A rubber bullet plugged into your head at point blank will indeed render you incapacitated, as stated earlier, so I guess that's kind of suicide-y. I've used lethal rounds with the pistol every chance I've had, and the results aren't particularly spectacular - they still only do about 25 damage. Needless to say, the nuke op hardsuit was unimpressed.

 

That's false. Effectively through the new meta, you can disarm people easily with the rubber bullets if you target the hands. They still break bones, so you're able to break the fuck out of their hands so they can't do jack.

 

Never mind that the probability of actually shooting someone in the hand in real life is phenomenally low. I don't understand why target zone even matters outside of point blank shots, because unless your character is a level 50 sniper, you're going to be hitting whatever you can in an actual firefight.

[Guest]

Needless to say, the nuke op hardsuit was unimpressed.

 

/obj/item/weapon/rig/merc
name = "crimson hardsuit control module"
desc = "A blood-red hardsuit featuring some fairly illegal technology."
icon_state = "merc_rig"
suit_type = "crimson hardsuit"
armor = list(melee = 80, bullet = 65, laser = 50, energy = 15, bomb = 80, bio = 100, rad = 60)
slowdown = 1
offline_slowdown = 3
offline_vision_restriction = 1

 

Hardsuits also tend to restrict around limbs in order to prevent bone breaks and crippling, so that's a neat plus. The only counter to the hardsuit is EMP, consistent laser focus fire ganging up on the hardsuited individual, the anti-materiel rifle, or the Z8 bulldog. The latter two are both armor-piercing.

[UnknownMurder]

Just because it so happens that average SS13 players don't know anything but "Shoot first, ask later", doesn't mean Security as a whole should be given inferior tools. If anything it just shows that Security might need a whitelist sometime down the line because you can't trust people to be responsible.

 

It's going to happen, but not just yet. We've had an influx of... I wouldn't say incompetent but irresponsible Security Officers whom tends to think shooting with rubber bullets at unarmed person is actually a good idea. In fact, Security doesn't need more lethal. Everything you need to contain a riot or major issues is in the Armory, Security are not responsible enough. If they can't hold their tongue, why should we let them hold the lethal guns? Those are crew members you're shooting at. They don't show emotions, they basically clones of Agent 47.

[LordFowl]

A security whitelist is not likely going to happen any time in the future. Sorry for breaking the bad news, but discussing it on this thread isn't exactly pertinent.

That said, if we were to entertain 'realism' in arming our security personnel, the most sensible side-arm for them to be equipped with is not a ballistic pistol at all, but rather an energy pistol. It has the capability to both stun and kill, and possesses sufficient means to accomplish both without being excessively lethal. It is also the more suited for space combat, and is the more technological appealing. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind phasing out separate taser and pistol sidearms and consolidating both functions into an energy pistol - its the logical step.

[Carver]

Phasers? Phasers.

[Outboarduniform]

let me just jump my two cents in here.

human rights activists are some of the few groups protesting against rubber bullets , because they're the only non-lethal weapons that can kill.

This isn't for a bullshit buff , this is about adding something slightly more real to pistols and the rounds they use.

From 1970 to 1975, the British military fired off 55,000 rounds of 5.9-inch (15-centimeter) rubber bullets in Northern Ireland, reportedly killing 13 people at a death rate of 1 in 18,000 rounds and resulting in a severe injury rate of 1 in 800.

Rubber Bullets can kill mate.

[Arrow768]

I also think that there is no need for lethal ammo from the beginning.

If the situation comes that lethal ammo is needed, there is a warden that is able to supply it.

(And even more lethal weapons if required).

The security force that is deployed on aurora is more like the security guards in your shopping mall than a actual police force.

They are just there to stop minor crimes and call for help from a force that is equipped to deal with that / hold major criminals until they can be handed over to the authorities.

You wont find you average mall guard equipped with a pistol that carries lethal ammo.

I would even support disabling the access to the armory for normal officers, so pistols have to be requested through the warden (This also helps to keep track of the inventory)

[Guest]

The constant strawman comparison to how aurorasec is more akin to mallcops is tired, boring, nihilistic and, oh, right; boring. antag hugbox please go

edit: never post while tired, you use the wrong words for the wrong things.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Guest

[LordFowl]

Aurora is mallcops = god is dead, apparently.

[CampinKiller]

Uh, what?

Aurora security isn't mallcops. That's been well established for some time. They are a paramilitary corporate security force. Most RL corporate security forces at a research facility are armed with lethal weapons, because it's better safe than sorry.

I'd support giving officers energy pistols.