StraightJackets - 5 minutes to break

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

It should be possible to break out of straightjackets. As it stands, once you are in one, you are completely snuffed out of the round. It is impossible to get out of them. If you are left in a straightjacket and buckled somewhere, you are impossible to move. It is sometimes practice for security to jacket and muzzle someone and leave them in solitary, which becomes a permanent situation in which, again, it is literally impossible to escape.

I used to defend straightjackets as useful against griefers but the frequency in which they're used by medical and security even against my own characters has left a sour taste in my mouth. Griefers and chuckleheads can be dealt with by admins and winded. Honestly I destroy these scourges whenever I have the chance.

It is completely fair and reasonable that they be able to be broken out of after 5 minutes, which is 3 minutes more than regular handcuffs. This makes them extreme, but lets us keep them without having to remove them completely.

If this is impossible because of code or something, please remove them and give medical a pair of handcuffs renamed "medical restraints".

[Guest Complete Garbage]

Yeeeah, I'm with you on this. Straightjackets are pretty fucking OP.

[Xzinic]

I agree with you. Strait-jackets, though difficult to escape in real life, are in-game an annoying feature. They should be reserved for players who make out their characters to be homicidally / suicidally insane and not used as a round-killer. If the antagonist is rational minded (relatively speaking) when performing heinous deeds, he or she should not be sentenced to such confinement. I feel that strait-jackets ruin a self-developing story. Every round should be like a play one does not want to end. Having the five-minute break-period would certainly create situations that would re-spark the players' and observers' interest in the round. Overall, I feel that strait-jacket are to be reserved for those who actively try to kill themselves and be muzzled should they yell to the extant of damaging his or her vocal cords; a strait-jacket is a method of medical treatment, not a pair of handcuffs.

[witchbells]

Straight jackets have needed a nerf for a long time, coming from one of the many people who have spent an entire round neglected in one.

[Butterrobber202]

Jesus, I have used the straight jacket muzzle combo once, and that was for Cult Converstions, a entire round? The Person who applied the jacket should be banned for Grief

[MagnificentMelkior]

I do find it very annoying how no matter what your special circumstances, they are unbeatable. Hulks, Lings, Wizards (with the right spell), Vamps(maybe), etc all have good reason to be able to escape one. Realistically, a normal human couldn't escape: that's the point of them irl. So I think a better solution is to remove them altogether or to make them harder to use/more rare. Maybe require them to be shipped in via cargo (why would this research station come equipped with a straitjacket? It seems like a holdover from lowrp memery.

[witchbells]

Realistically, a normal human couldn't escape: that's the point of them irl.

 

They actually can be escaped by the average person, it just requires some strenuous maneuvers, and/or the dislocation of one or two joints.

[Nanako]

I don't get the attitude here.

Yes they're a permanant solution, they're supposed to be. The ability to effectively keep people imprisoned is the reason you don't execute them. It's the reason a society is able to have humane laws and regulations. you're not supposed to be able to break out of prison, that's the exact opposite of the thing they're built for

When you're already dealing with an influx of new criminals, the last thing you want is your existing criminals breaking out. trying to manage a large number of prisoners is hugely frustrating for security, and it gets to the point where even the most nice and lawful players are really wishing they could just execute them

Is prison supposed to be fun? I don't think so. If you end up there as a non antag, its your punishment for breaking IC rules. If you end up there as an antag, it's your punishment for losing the game.

The communal area where you can socialise with other players is provided as a means of making the experience more bearable, most officers will be nice to you too if you're well behaved. If you're the type of prisoner who's going to repeatedly attempt escape, and disarm or assault the warden every chance you get, why shouldn't you be perma bound in isolation? you're just annoying someone else and they're using logical means to remove the problem.

I don't see an issue with a straight jacket being too powerful. Maybe its overused for minor situations. If you've been a well behaved prisoner and are still abandoned in an isolation cell, ahelp about it. If you haven't been, then your character deserves what they get.

depowering nonlethal means of subduing is just going to mean more accidental field executions and less effort being put forth to save your dying corpse, because bringing you into the brig is more trouble than it's worth

Besides, aren't antags allowed an exception to the suicide rule, last i checked? If its really unbearable, die and respawn.

[Nanako]

Maybe require them to be shipped in via cargo (why would this research station come equipped with a straitjacket? It seems like a holdover from lowrp memery

to restrain violent or mentally unstable patients, the reason its typically used for. there's clearly no shortage of them on aurora, i see a lot of IC reason to have it

The station has a dedicated psychiatrist role, and a chaplain. Those are psychological support, they wouldn't be needed unless there was a high ocurrence of psychological issues on space stations. Psychs treat mentally unstable people, a straight jacket is an essential tool of their job

I would be in favour of some IC regulation restricting its usage to only those judged unstable, but then that leaves security unable to effectively contain certain antagonists, who thusly can't safely be taken to the psychiatrist to begin with

When i'm in medical, i always make it very clear that the one and only straightjacket on the ship belongs to medical, and that we need it for medical use. I demand it back from security after prisoners are delivered into their custody

[witchbells]

I don't get the attitude here.

Yes they're a permanant solution, they're supposed to be. The ability to effectively keep people imprisoned is the reason you don't execute them. It's the reason a society is able to have humane laws and regulations. you're not supposed to be able to break out of prison, that's the exact opposite of the thing they're built for

When you're already dealing with an influx of new criminals, the last thing you want is your existing criminals breaking out. trying to manage a large number of prisoners is hugely frustrating for security, and it gets to the point where even the most nice and lawful players are really wishing they could just execute them

 

I have so many issues with this post that I'm going to break it into parts for you.

Firstly, the reasons you're using to using to justify not implementing this are entirely based on IC desires to keep someone restrained, and out of the round with no hope of being released unless someone else releases them, and defending this with IC reasoning such as "you wouldn't want criminals breaking out," and "you aren't supposed to be able to get out of strait jackets," regardless of the fact that people can and have.

 

Is prison supposed to be fun? I don't think so. If you end up there as a non antag, its your punishment for breaking IC rules. If you end up there as an antag, it's your punishment for losing the game.

The communal area where you can socialise with other players is provided as a means of making the experience more bearable, most officers will be nice to you too if you're well behaved. If you're the type of prisoner who's going to repeatedly attempt escape, and disarm or assault the warden every chance you get, why shouldn't you be perma bound in isolation? you're just annoying someone else and they're using logical means to remove the problem.

 

If you are bent on purposely making the game unenjoyable for people who break IC regulations, I don't agree with you, but let me tell you about powergaming.

 

 

Read the above paragraph. Notice that it does not just apply to antags, and that it is not about winning or losing the game, and any claims to the contrary would contradict what staff have been telling people and telling people since day one, that antags are here to contribute to the round and create roleplay for everyone, not focus on winning the game. I don't know what much else to tell you in regards to your thoughts on brig treatment other than some of these phrases such as "making the experience more bearable" and "using logical means to remove the problem. " make it seem like you believe these players don't deserve to enjoy themselves at all because they chose to play antag and, in your view, disrupt the round.

 

I don't see an issue with a straight jacket being too powerful. Maybe its overused for minor situations. If you've been a well behaved prisoner and are still abandoned in an isolation cell, ahelp about it. If you haven't been, then your character deserves what they get.

 

You're giving off that impression I discussed a moment ago. Saying someone's "character deserves what they get" because they played antag, made some trouble, and are now sitting in isolation, strait jacketed with no interaction for the rest of the round unless someone decides to show some mercy? I don't see the appeal.

 

depowering nonlethal means of subduing is just going to mean more accidental field executions and less effort being put forth to save your dying corpse, because bringing you into the brig is more trouble than it's worth

 

"Accidental" being the key word here, I see. No, using lethal force when it isn't necessary will get someone to put the boots to you, either OOCly or ICly.

 

Besides, aren't antags allowed an exception to the suicide rule, last i checked? If its really unbearable, die and respawn.

 

Yes, within reason. But I don't at all see that as a justification to purposefully make their round as an antag unenjoyable.

[Arrow768]

I am with MagnificentMelkior and Nanako on this one.

The straight jacket´s very purpose is to prevent people from escaping it.

Yes, some people might overuse it in situations where other means can be used.

I would suggest an IC Regulation to prevent these problems.

If a warden / whatever feels the need to apply a straight jacket to a prisoner he needs to call medical to get a psychological evaluation for that prisoners.

If said prisoner is deemed mentally unstable, he is transferred to medical for treatment.

The straightjacket should only be used to transfer a prisoner to and from medical and for treatment in medical.

If the warden / someone else decides to straightjacket a prisoner without involvement from medical they should be subject to mistreatment of prisoner charges.

[Nanako]

and defending this with IC reasoning such as "you wouldn't want criminals breaking out," and "you aren't supposed to be able to get out of strait jackets," regardless of the fact that people can and have.

Yes they're based on IC reasoning, as a lot of things on aurora are. I don't enjoy doing medical paperwork but it makes sense for the setting. Sometimes things are sacrificed for RP value. Chemists get to make medicines and not spray acid all over the place. Security officers only get lethal weapons in limited circumstances. Rules are there to curb what everyone does, to prevent it affecting other people's RP too much

 

make it seem like you believe these players don't deserve to enjoy themselves at all because they chose to play antag and, in your view, disrupt the round.

Does the warden not deserve to enjoy the round, as well? He'd often like to do his job writing up reports, coordinating people from the cameras, and walking around RPing with prisoners. If all his time is spent babysitting one uncontainable asshole then he can't do that.

We've all seen them, the people who don't RP pain or consequences at all, who will spam every ability and hostile action they have available. And when they get flashed or peppersprayed down, they'll spam all theikr stuff again as soon as they get up. Like the vampire that uses glare every time its off cooldown, and the wizard that uses magic missile on anything near him at all times

If these people want to RP seriously, they can take pain and consequences into account, they can talk to people around them, they can act the well behaved prisoner, at least for a while. People who do that are generally unlikely to get straightjacketed by good officers. Bad ones, you ahelp. You can't really ahelp for bad RP, or an overly aggressive antagonist.

Doctors and surgeons deserve to have fun too, we join medical because we want to treat patients. Some supernaturally powered prisoner who starts attacking doctors makes life hell for us, of course i'm going to sedate and straightjacket him. The straightjacket ensures that, when he wakes up, he can still talk and roleplay with other people. If i REALLY wanted to take someone out of the round i can inject them with so much soporific they'll sleep for an hour straight. That's just not fun for anyone and i avoid sedating people when possible, the jacket is by far the better option

 

"Accidental" being the key word here, I see. No, using lethal force when it isn't necessary will get someone to put the boots to you, either OOCly or ICly.

The people i just described are the ones who tend to die or get seriously hurt in the field. When someone keeps getting back up, officers will use progressively more and more force to keep them down. We often see people with broken ribs and legs, and fractured lungs, resulting from an arrest in a simple barfight or argument. When i witness these arrests i see why it happenss, these people just will not stay down, they're not willing to sacrifice a few minutes of their own time to play along as a vulnerable, mortal human being. Which instead results in them spending a much longer period in medical asleep.

Sometimes these injuries are too severe. When you're facing officers armed with lethal lasers on a solar array in the ass end of maintenance, if you keep getting back up at every opportunity you're just going to die.

Actions have consequences. The straightjacket is a lesser consequence than death, or paralysis, or having all your limbs broken, or permanant sedation. Actions are always going to have consequences, if you remove one option, worse ones will take its place

The problem with people being taken out of a round, is a combination of their behaviour, and the officers applying the jacket too liberally. These are both IC RP problems, and removing a tool isn't going to fix anything

[Garbage]

This. I've been a changeling who was knocked down by security and then put in a straight jacket and all the addons and put in solitary. This was a while ago (old server) but putting an antag perma out of the round is a major deal but was an IC issue because if we have inescapable restraints with no penalty for security using them there's really no point not to. I don't think that removing the SJ is an option but I do think it should be eventually escapable because being thrown in a dark room and left there for thirty minutes before ghosting is BS.

[Nanako]

If we have inescapable restraints with no penalty for security using them there's really no point not to.

There is a penalty for using it. It's that theres only one on the station, no others can be created or bought, and using it deprives medical of the ability to restrain violent patients. It can only be used to remove one antag from the round, and antags rarely come alone

[Garbage]

There is a penalty for using it. It's that theres only one on the station, no others can be created or bought, and using it deprives medical of the ability to restrain violent patients. It can only be used to remove one antag from the round, and antags rarely come alone

 

That's not much of a penalty. A "Get an antag out of the round free card" that can only be used once and can't be used to stop violent patients? Violent patients are seldom a thing because if your character goes berserk in medical and isn't an antag (Even if you're an antag if you don't have a great reason for attacking doctors) you get bwoinked.

[Nanako]

Violent patients are seldom a thing because if your character goes berserk in medical and isn't an antag (Even if you're an antag if you don't have a great reason for attacking doctors) you get bwoinked.

i guess all i can say here, is that i think you're wrong. A trip to medical (often for self inflicted injuries) is a chance for a player to get out of a secure area under the guard of only one officer, there's a whole lot less standing between him and freedom, and many choose to make a break from it. feels like it happens almost every shift, sometimes several in one

I've never seen anyone get winded as a result of it

Edited April 26, 2016 by Guest

[MagnificentMelkior]

Realistically, a normal human couldn't escape: that's the point of them irl.

 

They actually can be escaped by the average person, it just requires some strenuous maneuvers, and/or the dislocation of one or two joints.

A normal human is not capable of Houdini escapades. I am aware that trained freaks/magicians can escape from strait jackets, but I think that allowing every character to be a double jointed acrobat is going to create the problem of Aurora (or Exodus) being staffed entirely by genius acrobat boxers instead of just the genius boxers we have now.

What I would like is Admins to be willing to (not that I ever asked- this idea just came to me) release people from straitjackets if they ahelp about it and have a valid reason for being able to escape (being an actual escape artist, being hulked, or some other valid reason).

Freedom implants having a way to free you from a straitjacket would be nice too, if thats not already true. I haven't checked.

My core position here is that a straitjacket should be exactly as robust or unrobust as it realistically would be considering all the circumstances. If you really are a traveling circus act or magician I think it would be fair to have an admin free you, with some sort of /me involved. Likewise if you are well equipped or just super strong (freedom implant, being a wizard that prepared for this, being a hulk) you should be able to bust out.

[Garbage]

Actually Melkior there are a bunch of unprofessional guides on how to escape a straitjacket that you can find on the internet now, that actually work. Presumably there would be more in 2458. Especially for non-humans. If a changeling shapeshifts after being tied up, why would the straitjacket be so precisely locked on that new body as it would on the prior one. If I was a 5'4 nerdy human and then I suddenly become a muscly tajaran why would that jacket still restrain me (A straitjacket has shoulder straps, behind the arm straps, under arm straps, waist straps, groin straps, back straps, thigh straps, and more that all need to be precisely locked in fact one of the ways to escape a jacket is to bloat yourself by sucking in air so that the important straps aren't as tight as they are supposed to be, it's pretty precise)

[Dreviore]

I'd like to break up the realistic and fun thought process here.

Being taken out of the round because of a straight jacket and muzzle is not fun. You can argue how realistic it is to not be breaking out of it all you want, but at the end of the day, this is a game. And a game should prioritize fun over realism.

Plus as it stands people get put in the straight jacket, buckled to their bed, and left. There's no Role play coming out of them being put in an unbreakable form of handcuffs.

5 minutes gives security a chance to walk over and check on them, but also gives the antagonist a chance.

Ever been a heister who's been put into a straight jacket because youre an antagonist, who hasn't killed, or harmed anyone? I have and it sucks. I was deprived of any RP from security because I had contraband and wasn't on the manifest. Eventually I got blown out of my cell, but that wasn't for over a good 30 minutes of me just dealing with DO stuff because I couldn't do anything.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Ever been a heister who's been put into a straight jacket because youre an antagonist, who hasn't killed, or harmed anyone?

 

Ahelp it. That's unreasonable escalation of force from security.

[UnknownMurder]

This is a debatable question. I'll just throw in my opinion.

I love you guys as a friend, but I'm afraid what Nanako says in my mind is true. What Nanako says is what I actually did, the troublesome aggravated prisoner who keeps trying to break out of cuffs, banging on windows, and attempting to escape the brig did actually deserve to be put in straight jacket, same with buckle cuffing.

However, still... If you think you were straight jacketed, you have three options:

1. Adminhelp it to see if it was justified.

2. Don't adminhelp and bitch at Security, and they'll muzzle you.

3. Don't adminhelp and remain civil. They'll probably take off your straight jacket if you are not stupid as baldies, (Antags: You activated a trap card.).

I am not stupid, I do not let a criminal, with a malicious intent to destroy the station, to be uncuffed and given a chance to escape.

Seems pretty simple to me, no?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Cuffing someone long enough to lock them in solitary serves the exact same purpose as a straightjacket, but it also allows them a minute chance to escape if they can deal with the airlock. You not being able to pacify troublesome prisoners with all the regular tools at your disposal doesn't justify a round-ending, all-powerful tool of restraint, especially with how unquestionably abused they are. EscaI have been put in jackets before put in cuffs and I wasn't even resisting. It's a tool for powergaming. You should not be overwhelmed by someone locked in solitary with a tracking implant unless you are completely incapable of handling prisoners, in which case you should cooperate with the Warden to better accommodate the trouble maker. This is why solitary exists.

[Dreamix]

This is a debatable question. I'll just throw in my opinion.

I love you guys as a friend, but I'm afraid what Nanako says in my mind is true. What Nanako says is what I actually did, the troublesome aggravated prisoner who keeps trying to break out of cuffs, banging on windows, and attempting to escape the brig did actually deserve to be put in straight jacket, same with buckle cuffing.

No, no, no. No. This is not a suggestion that will let such griefers/insane people to magically escape the justice. Yes, insane, no one should just try to shatter windows and stuff, just to avoid a 30-minutes charge and a fine. That's badRP. Just ahelp to have them ease up. I wish baldies didn't exist, and let's pretend they don't.

This suggestion will let the legitimate roleplayers have a chance at providing themselves, and others, some good fun. Unless, being left alone in the solitary room is fun?

 

However, still... If you think you were straight jacketed, you have three options:

1. Adminhelp it to see if it was justified.

2. Don't adminhelp and bitch at Security, and they'll muzzle you.

3. Don't adminhelp and remain civil. They'll probably take off your straight jacket if you are not stupid as baldies, (Antags: You activated a trap card.).

Sometimes it's justified, but not fun for literally anyone. Like some heister who's just lying there on the bed, in solitary room. Or a cultist. Usually the circumstances allow security to straightjacket them. But, the straightjacket is usually an absolute game-ender for the antagonist. I'd rather be killed and never cloned, than be forced to wait for the crew transfer or someone to show some mercy and pay me a visit in solitary.

 

My characters are not stupid, they do not let a criminal, with a malicious intent to destroy the station, to be uncuffed and given a chance to escape.

Seems pretty simple to me, no?

Corrected it for you. Just remember that not everything that's good, efficient and nice for your character, is also fun roleplay for everyone else. Unless, you would like to send every offender and wrongdoer to Odin, to get rid of them. Wouldn't that be realistic?

Let's give antags a chance, can we?

[Guest]

This suggestion will let the legitimate roleplayers have a chance at providing themselves, and others, some good fun. Unless, being left alone in the solitary room is fun?

 

that's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one

Remember when I mentioned adminhelping when you get straitjacketed for no reason? Do that, because if you don't say anything nothing will ever happen and everyone will assume you're OOCly okay with the turn of events.

That being said, it's 400-something years in the future and straitjackets aren't built to not only be safer for the person being jacketed but to prevent others from coming to harm by them as well? Given there's also only one straitjacket on the map from what I can recall as there's no insanity ward, you can only jacket one particular person for the round. I consider it a fair drawback.

[Nikov]

The only use for the straight jacket is to put someone on the psychiatrist's couch for long, painful conversations about their mothers. It belongs in the psychologist's closet and under the psychologist's control as it is for use on characters who are insane.