Staff Complaint: The_Muncorn

[Nanako]

BYOND Key: NanakoAC

Staff BYOND Key:The_Muncorn, moderator

Reason for complaint: Policing Mouse RP

Evidence/logs/etc:

As a foreword i will say that this is silly. The fact that i need to make this thread is silly.

It is going to contain lots of pictures of mice, videos of mice, and links to the aforementioned./. if you don't like mice i suggest not reading

TL;DR: Just leave me alone to play with my mice

However, largely for muncorn's sake, i am forced to make this.

A couple of days ago, while i was playing a mouse, as i always do. Muncorn bwoinked me and started lecturing me on mouse RP, though he apparently hadn't witnessed the rather long extended round and what i'd been doing up til that moment, somone seems to have complained about the pointing. He tries telling me that pointing at things is not proper mouse behaviour, and after having a seemingly friwendly discussion about it, he got all condescending, demanded that i never point at things again, and threatened me with a mouse-ban if i didn't comply. So i must now make this thread in order to defend mouse access. Woe for the times we live in.

Lets start with:

1. How can a mouse point at things?

The answer? Using their hands.

Don't i mean paws? No, hands. Mice literally have hands

 

 

Mice have very articulate front pawhand thingies with several fingers and a great deal of dexterity in them. They are capable of using them to grasp tiny objects like nuts, seeds, and thin bars. They don't have a lot of strength in those hands - their neck is stronger, and they'll often use their mouth in heavy lifting

Here is a mouse using its hands and mouth in combination, to put coins into a piggy bank:

In addition, there is the head. Mice use their head for a lot of things in much the same way as dogs, and they will use it to indicate towards things they want. A mouse can 'point' with its nose as surely as with fingers, it has the appendages to do either.

2. Mice are too dumb to point at things

Mice are in fact, pretty smart little animals, its one of the things that's made them so suitable for scientific experimentation over the years.. They have a similar brain to body ratio as humans, 1:40, and thus a proportionally larger mind than the likes of cats and dogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio

They're as smart as rats, a significantly larger animal: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/9717/20141020/rats-arent-smarter-mice-surprise-researchers.htm

They are social animals which live in familial structures, and can be tamed, recognise and appreciate their owner, and learn tricks. They're curious and love learning about their environment:

Mice can be taught new things at a surprisingly rapid rate. Learning a new trick in under a minute is impressive:

Now pointing at objects, its not exactly a complex behaviour. Indicating things is a basic instinctual response for any creature that has any concept of its environment. Pointing out food and dangers is a means of communication, and as mentioned mice are social animals and have plenty of reasons to communicate with others

3. You're a 'wild mouse', you should be interacting with people

Not true, mice on a space station are not wild creatures, and a space station is not a forest, nor a grassy field. They are urbanised mice, having adapted to living in close proximity with humans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_wildlife

Urbanisation exerts some interesting selective pressures on animals, including a tendancy towards higher intelligence, and a necessary to become more accustomed to human contact, as stealing food from humans is often necessary for survival

Additional remarks:

In short, i posit that mice have the ability/physical appendages needed for pointing and indicating objects, the intelligence to do so and ability to recognise when such might be useful, and live in an environment where it is often a beneficial behaviour. A blanket ban on mice pointing at things does not make sense.

My Mouse RP is very varied, since its 90-95% of what i play these days, i enjoy being a pseudo-background observer.

Sometimes i;m a tame mouse that stays with someone as a pet all shift, sometimes i'm a mercurial creature that just uses humans for long enough to be fed and then leaves, sometimes i'm a starving vermin, scurrying around dark places and trying to find food to steal while fleeing from a horde of people and robots that want to stamp/shoot/decompile me.

SS13 has a broad content base and appeals to everyone in some way, everyone finds their own little niche. Banning me from mouse would be like banning sierra or SoT from playing synthetics, pretty crushing.

I asked shadow about this issue, and his words, i quote were 'I'm not going to police mouse RP' in a rather sarcastic tone.

He obviously thinks this topic is silly. I agree with that, there's no need to argue over proper mouse RP.

The bottom line, as has been established repeatedly, is that if you have a problem with a mouse, you can administer IC punishment, by murdering it. I recently buffed mousetraps for this purpose. Staff intervention should only be needed for particular cases of abusing mechanics, like mice that used to strip people naked

TL;DR: policing mouse RP is silly, pls leave me alone

[Muncorn]

Now... As much as I'm struggling to take this seriously, I'm going to attempt to address it as such.

First off,

Now pointing at objects, its not exactly a complex behaviour. Indicating things is a basic instinctual response for any creature that has any concept of its environment. Pointing out food and dangers is a means of communication, and as mentioned mice are social animals and have plenty of reasons to communicate with others

Now, as you yourself mentioned, you are a urbanised mouse, but you're not a tamed mouse. The mice you will be 'roleplaying' as has never been in contact with humans enough to pick up so much as a smidgen of their behaviour. As for pointing things out, I mentioned this in the very ahelps that sparked this off. They point, with their nose. This is part in due to the nature that they tend to find things through smell, and also due to the higher desterity of the neck and the fact that pointing in this way just so happens to make it so they also look in that direction.

However, the main problem was; though admittedly I failed to address it; the things you were pointing out. Multiple times I got reports of you pointing to things like consoles and other things which mice do not know the use of in response to somebody saying in a language mice do not know. It's simply ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

And killing mice doesn't solve the problem, since all that's going to happen is there's going to be a recurring mouse, every single round, coming into my office and pointing shit out to me, and being a general nuisance to my sense of immersion. Not an immersion breaker, no, not at all, but a plain nuisance. And I quite simply don't want that nuisance to extend to an OOC capacity, as this is plain ridiculous.

[CakeIsOssim]

Wait what the fuck?

 

Pretty much this. Mice are not characters. They are backseat pseudo observers. They are also pests. A mouse pointing out shit that humans use on a daily basis, and would have no idea what it even is, is not okay. It is not against the rules to kill pests. It is not against the rules to play a pest. It is against the rules to abuse a role to do stupid stuff.

This vehement defending of mice is seriously getting kind of ridiculous, and though such a personal response out of me may not be so becoming of a moderator, it is honestly how I feel.

[Nanako]

However, the main problem was; though admittedly I failed to address it; the things you were pointing out. Multiple times I got reports of you pointing to things like consoles and other things which mice do not know the use of in response to somebody saying in a language mice do not know.

 

Your language in those PMs was not specific about this. As far as i could tell, your intention was to decree that a mouse shouldn't point at anything at all, under any circumstance, and warned me against doing that.

I may be pointing out some incongruous things, and i'm happy to adjust behaviour in such regards. My problem here is with you trying to ban pointing on the whole. If that isn't what you intended to do, then i'd say you failed to communicate the specificity of your instructions

 

And killing mice doesn't solve the problem, since all that's going to happen is there's going to be a recurring mouse, every single round, coming into my office and pointing shit out to me, and being a general nuisance to my sense of immersion.

 

Shooting a mouse is a temporary measure, but putting a mousetrap on a vent, or welding said vent, is pretty permanant, they are easy to kill. And I am happy to make adjustments if a specific usage of mechanics is immersion breaking. Ill be happy to keep my pointing under control and consider things more carefully within a a more simple frame of mind, and less about higher concepts

The point of this thread is to object to your apparent assertion that any and all pointing is unbelievable or unrealistic, by demonstrating that they do have the capacity for such action, and entirely refraining from pointing at anything isnt a reasonable expectation

[Nanako]

This vehement defending of mice is seriously getting kind of ridiculous, and though such a personal response out of me may not be so becoming of a moderator, it is honestly how I feel.

I am aware that this is silly, and i expressed as much in the OP. But this thread was necessary because i was threatened with moderator action. If someone's going to accuse me of bad conduct as a mouse, as strange as that is. Then my only recourse is to defend my conduct as a mouse, and i was quite surprised that things had to come to this point

Of course there are limits to reasonable behaviour, but i'm not abusing such mechanics to affect the round. It's not like i'm leading crewmembers to where corpses are hidden, or informing everyone who the changeling is. Generally the only time ill use a mouse to point at someone, is if that person has already tried to kill me. Any animal will remember a human who beat it

I'd be very happy for everyone to agree that this is silly and drop the subject. But as shadow pointed out, ignoring directions from staff will escalate things badly, and until this is sorted out i have the sword of damocles hanging over my head ready to strike the next time i point at a piece of cheese.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Guest

[Juani2400]

Animals are amazing. And I love them. And I don't doubt that mice are, indeed, pretty clever. However, I still got to see a real mouse pointing at something. Befriending someone, being their pet, being trained to do tricks and all that stuff is completely fine and reasonable for a mouse and thus it is acceptable for "mouse RP". Now, mice are simply not able to point at stuff unless trained (I'm unaware of the training capabilities of a mice), because they simply don't understand pointing at something may indicate others any information. In fact, I really doubt they can even think a person can help them get the item, or anything. It's simply not realistic.

PS: I feel a bit dumb about posting here about this, but, well.

[Zundy]

Mice don't point out objects. I like mice and drones as much as the next guy but stop being silly Nanako.

[Guest]

I'd be very happy for everyone to agree that this is silly and drop the subject. But as shadow pointed out, ignoring directions from staff will escalate things badly, and until this is sorted out i have the sword of damocles hanging over my head ready to strike the next time i point at a piece of cheese.

 

What

You know, actually, this is not very surprising to hear expressed from you. The moment you do anything and people describe their distaste in some degree in relation to your actions, you automatically default to this false position where you're the victim and everyone is conspiring to make you look bad and eventually remove you from the server. You're never the one at fault, it is always everyone else's fault for acting and reacting the way they do, and when you do something you can't be held responsible because then everyone else is biased. I mean, hell, you are more than capable of embarrassing yourself at this point. Why should anyone else need to help you?

And that's the silliest goddamn thing about it. Your reaction to this is so alarmist and ultra-reactionary that people lose focus of the actual issue and get distracted on your tone rather on the things you did. Other people have picked up on this and adopt it as their own personal way of reacting to things, too. And that is not a good example to uphold.

You do this alarmist shit with mice so you can get away with more and more crap and make laughingstocks out of others. Stop baiting people into these discussions. The only issue whom you should take this with is with yourself, because you're the only person who can control their own actions, not anybody else.

This complaint should automatically be dismissed as invalid because I seriously doubt the handling moderator was acting on bad pretenses, not to mention how full of crap the main post is. The amount of effort you put into such a terrible post should be lauded historically.

Can anyone read this complaint and not go "oh my god" while sighing about how out of touch and semantical the main post is? There's no point to it. It's just bullshit.

[icy_dew]

i personally play as a mouse often, but cmon. no mouse, even domesticated, is able to realise that pointing their hands or nose to an object that is OF IMPORTANCE TO THE CURRENT CONVERSATION IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE THEY DON'T SPEAK will make them know to use it.

also, what 1138 said.

[Nanako]

FYI, this complaint is about muncorn, not myself, and also you werent involved

 

You know, actually, this is not very surprising to hear expressed from you. The moment you do anything and people describe their distaste in some degree in relation to your actions, you automatically default to this false position where you're the victim and everyone is conspiring to make you look bad and eventually remove you from the server.

 

My actions are criticised on a several-times-daily basis among the development staff, and by the playerbase whenever i go on server, i try to only take issue with it when its seriously likely to affect me, as here where my access to a mechanic is in danger

You're never the one at fault, it is always everyone else's fault for acting and reacting the way they do, and when you do something you can't be held responsible because then everyone else is biased.

Read through my PRs sometime and you'll find multiple instances on almost every one where skull criticises something i've done, and i go whoops and redo things according to his specification

 

This complaint should automatically be dismissed as invalid because I seriously doubt the handling moderator was acting on bad pretenses,

that's great! Your 'serious doubt' can replace judicial process entirely,

I already tried taking this issue to a head administrator, he told me to make a staff complaint, and not to ignore instructions from a moderator, so here we are

What exactly makes my defense any less valid or more silly than the original judgement? This is a silly topic, i do not want to have this argument, i have been dragged into this mess.

 

not to mention how full of crap the main post is. The amount of effort you put into such a terrible post should be lauded historically.

I made the main post with a glaring foreword that it was silly and the need to argue such things was silly. I'm not the one who started this argument, a moderator brought it up.

There's no point to it. It's just bullshit.

the point was to establish basis for the RP standards i'm accused of breaking. Because someone in the administrative team has decided that mice have RP standards

[Guest]

FYI, this complaint is about muncorn, not myself, and also you werent involved

 

It is easy to use that rule to immediately dismiss others arguments regardless if they are valid or not, right?

 

My actions are criticised on a several-times-daily basis among the development staff, and by the playerbase whenever i go on server, i try to only take issue with it when its seriously likely to affect me, as here where my access to a mechanic is in danger

 

It takes a lot of genuine effort on the end of the mocked to constantly be made fun of. You cannot seriously think that the arguments and criticisms of most occur for no reason, right?

>Implying mouseban wasn't just a meme

 

that's great! Your 'serious doubt' can replace judicial process entirely,

I already tried taking this issue to a head administrator, he told me to make a staff complaint, and not to ignore instructions from a moderator, so here we are

What exactly makes my defense any less valid or more silly than the original judgement? This is a silly topic, i do not want to have this argument, i have been dragged into this mess.

 

Your 'judicial case' is reviewed by volunteers for a video game community. Not a Supreme Court of Roleplay, god forbid. I understand that you personally believe that a structure like the Illuminati in real life exists and actively hurts your moral conscience, but I very much doubt the staff structure is so draconian and carbon-cut-out serious as you think them to be.

The head admin probably told you to go make a complaint because it sounded nicer than "Heck off with this, I have far more important things to worry about right now". Again, this is just humorous speculation, but it could easily be true. You do not have to act on every advisement in respects to how you should deal with issues that you see. There can be consequences to not doing it, such as never uncovering the answer as to how the dreaded New Human Order plans to erase mouse experiences, destroy rodent inclusivity and bring about a new age of eternal enforcement of character structure.

I wonder if one could overdose on irony. Anyway.

Man up and deal with it. Move on. It is a video game. You should not have such serious levels of investment in a video game to get upset when you're told off about mice not being held to the same level of importance to actual in-game characters.

 

I made the main post with a glaring foreword that it was silly and the need to argue such things was silly. I'm not the one who started this argument, a moderator brought it up.

 

Geez man it sounded like you weren't roleplaying as a background """character""" if I might use that term so loosely, hence the unnecessary quotations, as no one (but you) wants to go insofar as to label mice as characters.

The moderation staff team has always had a specific modus operandi: Wait for the adminhelp, then investigate. Exceptions apply in cases of griff where proactivity is encouraged to prevent possible permanent damage. So more than likely, one or more people saw the issue with your "semi-sentient mouse" """character""" using its graspers to intelligently point at things as if it comprehended the purpose of those items.

As lore staff, I understand the fact that our genre is sci-fantasy, but nowhere in our sci-fantasy are mice sentient enough to think and gloss over the purpose of objects. They learn reactively and it's passed down the genetic line, but I don't think anywhere in the period from 2016 to 2458 that incredibly tiny underdeveloped mice can communicate with advanced beings.

 

the point was to establish basis for the RP standards i'm accused of breaking. Because someone in the administrative team has decided that mice have RP standards

 

There is no basis. Everyone has assumed from since we had mice up until recently where you started meming the topic to death that mice were pest-like creatures that annoyed the shit out of the crew just by existing. Mice are not characters, but they have standards to abide by so that they fit and have a purpose on the station.

That purpose is to be a pest. Mice are not "no-RP" roles, they still have expectations along with every other job. You want a zero-responsibility zero-interaction job? You could easily not play on the server and go find something more single-player oriented, because SS13 is not for those with social failings.

And before any oldfags bring it up: Samantha Mason shenanigans are not included in any of my statements. There is not a single person alive that can replace that player and their character, and they are the exception, not the rule.

[Ricky_the_banshee]

Okay, so first of all. What?

I never expected a staff complaint of this level in my time as Moderator and here it is. Anyway, I was online at the time this occured and let me give my perspective on the ordeal. A group of engineers and a scientist were remodeling Genetics and I decided to Aghost and see if it truely worked (since I was told Genetics itself was removed/borked.) when suddenly I find this; http://puu.sh/rHxUb/dda565d24b.png. There was no doubt you were basically communicating with your Human masters at an impossible level even if it's a domesticated, tamed, urban, wildlife or apache Mouse. It's an abuse of restrictions put on a Mouse, plain and simple.

And for the record, despite you claiming mice can be ''taught'' such tricks. Are you implying those engineers/Scientists truely decided to sit down with you at some point ant spend hours learning you a trick? Because there is NO way that mouse learns that in a span of a few minutes. That takes at leasts hours for them to comprehend. And even so, the concept of pointing as a means of indication, understanding etc is not something they canot comprehend. For that to be so requires a level of sentience that's found only within primates and Humans.

Muncorn was not wrong addressing you for the unrealistic animal behavioral potrayal at that point. There is no scientific evidence that indicates Mice sharing a semi-sentient level of intelligence that puts them CLOSE to Humans that they can point at specific objects to alarm/warn their owners. Period

And for the record, yes, mice RP should not be policed. Why? Because we expect better from the players than goofing around as Mice while creating a backstory around a specific mice + creating ridiculously cartoon-ish scenarios with their Mice assigned the leading role. No, that's not what playing a Mice is for. It's being as implied multiple times as being a PSEUDO-OBSERVER ROLE. Nothing more, nothing else. Come on, Nanako. You should know better than this.

[Garnascus]

i am going to lock this for the time being until i get a chance to review it. Likely tomorrow.

[Garnascus]

Funnily enough, a note wasnt even left on you about this. "policing mouse RP" is not a thing. Mice are basically glorified observers. If you want to follow people around thats fine. pointing things out and displaying more intelligent or "human" characteristics is outside the bounds of the role. I will archive this now since thats as far as this needs to go.