General server complaint regarding revolution rounds

[Cassie]

BYOND Key: cassyjenelle/Camile Crafter

Staff BYOND Key: n/a (This is a general issue)

Reason for complaint: How the rules operate on revolution rounds, and systematically how many other gamemodes are handled.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks:

Some background on the round...

Wowwwee. Now, this all started a few minutes ago. We were playing rp-revolution and for note, I was a revolutionary head. Round started normally, we began converting people and getting some numbers. Our bar and other leisure centres was seized (I had no problem with this, since it was supposedly part of the roleplay).

From then, I quickly learned that the roleplay revolution had limitations (you have to convince people to join, and even then they may refuse) and was fine with that also, since IC'ly in a roleplay environment this makes sense. I assumed that since the revolution has to start in such an organic way (we're not allowed to do anything too drastic without an admin's permission), the security and heads must also getting limitations and having a organic approach also with how they can react to the revolution (IE: finding out about the revolution from informants/clues, questioning, trials, and investigation) and this would balance out to the two sides.

Anyway, the problem started when I got some of the engineers in engineering on board with our cause. The engineers completely remove a few cameras and start making emitters and we make computers, and so on. This is pretty shady stuff, we'd totally get arrested for this if caught - I have no objection to that.

Anyway, sec finds our base and immediately arrests everyone (even non-revs) on the scene.

Here's where I start having the actual problem:

 

 

So, we are arrested. Fair enough, brought into the brig and our characters start screaming "What are our charges? What did we do?" to the security officers, like any good revolutionaries should do. We were hoping to utilize the fact that we may be punished for the individual crimes since we're so underpowered (we're technically not allowed to do anything too extreme like bash in a head's head in with a toolbox without a good IC reason and admin permission), or get tried/implanted as revolutionaries in court.

Nope. None of that happens. Why? This server just had to be special.

 

 

The security was already tipped off about the revolution and were allowed to brig anyone who sneezes wrong on Aunt Martha's tea party on a Tuesday. Fantastic eh? A lot of the people arrested weren't even revs, to test the efficiency of this deal. We got perma'ed. Not even tried for the crimes we did or put in the normal brig, nor was an investigation in place of our intents/groups, we were just perma'ed.

The best justification for this overpowered game mechanic was this in OOC:

 

 

CONVENIENT HUH?

Basically, the security weren't individually doing anything unjustified since they were following centcom orders. Who controls Centcom? Admins. So yes, that's why I'm not making a direct player topic to the sec, I'm making a general admin topic to challenge this mechanic that you've established here.

The roleplaying revolutions (I can only speak for my own squadron, who were well behaved and didn't directly harm security pre-brig) were roleplaying and were not powergaming in the least. I had many opportunities to powergame or win as I am an experienced ss13 player who actually knows how to robust, but I held back simply because I knew that robusting one of these people would mean I'd probably have to kill them.

We could have kidnapped them, but then again, the only thing saving these unrobust fucks was the cyborg. I honestly applaud the cyborg for being the only robust-competent sec there, mostly based on the fact it was a borg. But I didn't play this round to robust, I played it to RP.

The whole Centcom tip-off completely destroyed the idea of roleplaying between security and revs, security played to win - with the help of this admin permission in the form of a Centcom message which is totally justified under:

 

 

Oh gee! Thanks. Solves the problem? Wow, why was I even complaining? Everything is perfect! You make "Centcom say it", or maybe you just didn't add it in so it isn't a broken game mechanic considering the nature of RP on the server! Honestly though, if the revolutionaries were not so held back, we would have rumbled the brig a long time ago.

 

 

Anyway, the round sort of had to end when the permabrig filled up with N20 (I have no idea how) and a meteor hit it. All my revs were knocked out, and our revolution came to screeching halt with no hopes of breaking free. If we weren't placed in the perma in the first place (remember, a lot of innocents were in there) this would not have happened.

I have no idea what this "command report" is, but if you're going to have so many roleplay limitations on revolutionaries, was borderline no-trial marshall law (no trial because off-station hue hue sec wins idea). Inevitably, if revolutionaries are not allowed to actually do anything drastic (such as kill heads/security) and can be permabrigged without a trial or any way of eloping custody (even if you've been stealth), how exactly can a revolution round be played.

Moving onto the main, official root of the problem...

I've noticed that security on this server is terrible. Not necessary in RP, you guys can definitely rock the me emotes when you want to, but rather, you can't organize or fight for your lives. Therefore, admin powers, "nulled"-rp where antags (not necessarily even referring to revolution) can't actually be rough and act like actual antags because god, we might kill someone's RP-relationship or even worse... kill off someone's RP-baby.

Security, I honestly don't know why ERT is called nearly every round there's an antag. The villans don't even have to be killing, you actually beat the record of how quickly ERT is called. Sorry to be rude, but If you can even aim a gun in SS13 it's honestly beyond me how that's possible.

To be fair, most RP servers have this problem, and they just become boring, stuffy, repressive. I LOVE RP on ss13, but with you (and many other servers) it's just so cliquey and favours only the combat/antag roles (heck, not even antags get the best slice), even if you occasionally scold security for being bad it doesn't mean a thing if the server revolves around them.

Like, if there's a red-alert on say, a nuke round, all civillians are expected to stay in their places and do /me emotes until it passes. I get it - they're not combat people stay away from danger. Except, since the antag can't kill anyone or/and has no objectives, there's hardly any danger unless the nuke is set. No one feels the effect of the round unless they're security/antag/ert. It's boring. You've made the unity of a station bland and there's no SS13 magic - you know, you can have serious roleplay AND be action-packed at the same time.

Admins continually whine about keeping order, but in reality the only people who tend to enjoy the server are just within that clique I just mentioned. They just seem really inexperienced and make a lot of excuses for themselves. I'm disappointed this was my first antag role here.

tl;dr: Most nuke/rev/traitor rounds aren't fun unless you're security. Sec aren't necessarily bad as they're operating within server rules, but server rules are often problem to making the game a fully enjoyable experience.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Guest

[Susan]

This is a privately owned corporate space station. A trial must be presided over by a judge, who is a civil servant in the employ of the government, and in some cases a jury of peers. Trials are not, never were, and never will be a thing on our server because it makes no sense as far as the game is concerned, it is boring because everyone's interpretation of trials is Phoenix Wright and have no idea how proper court works, and is pointless because NanoTrasen has no authority to sentence beyond what is afforded to them for breaches of corporate regulations. You are being held until transfer to Command where you can get a trial, not sentenced to life in prison.

Moreover, I have no idea why this is in staff complaints. The Central announcements are hardcoded, were not implemented by our server (despite you assuming it was a conscious decision made to include them by our admin staff when they are part of the code base this server runs off of) and don't 'tip' security off about the revolution. Here are the messages in order from the first to the last.

 

if(last_command_report == 0 && world.time >= 10 * 60 * 10)
src.command_report("We are regrettably announcing that your performance has been disappointing, and we are thus forced to cut down on financial support to your station. To achieve this, the pay of all personnal, except the Heads of Staff, has been halved.")
last_command_report = 1
else if(last_command_report == 1 && world.time >= 10 * 60 * 30)
src.command_report("Statistics hint that a high amount of leisure time, and associated activities, are responsible for the poor performance of many of our stations. You are to bolt and close down any leisure facilities, such as the holodeck, the theatre and the bar. Food can be distributed through vendors and the kitchen.")
last_command_report = 2
else if(last_command_report == 2 && world.time >= 10 * 60 * 60)
src.command_report("It is reported that merely closing down leisure facilities has not been successful. You and your Heads of Staff are to ensure that all crew are working hard, and not wasting time or energy. Any crew caught off duty without leave from their Head of Staff are to be warned, and on repeated offence, to be brigged until the next transfer shuttle arrives, which will take them to facilities where they can be of more use.")
last_command_report = 3
return ..()

 

They do not tell anyone about the revolution. The purpose of these reports is to incite the crew to rebel by making stifling mandates. They have been a part of Baystation's codebase for more than a year after people whined about not having enough reason to revolt. I feel your complaint is split into two parts - you being upset you got arrested, and you blaming admins for a bit of code that they never had any involvement with whatsoever. As a member of development staff, this is directly inherited from Baystation and no one has ever had any problems outside of revolution being a shitty gamemode itself (not because of sec, or the revs, or the reports, but because it is a shitty gamemode) but you.

Here is how the law works. Disabling cameras is vandalism. Disabling the power amounts to grand sabotage; if workers severely inhibit the function of their workplace during a strike you had better believe they will be arrested. Any timer over sixty minutes is immediately granted permabrig clearance, and it is basically almost required. So if you convinced engineering to commit these quite frankly high profile crimes (you would not be employed after this was brought to light) you are an instigator and can and will be charged with the exact same charges they have been; 'conspiracy to commit grand sabotage' or something along those lines. If you assist in or instigate a criminal act you are liable to be charged as an accessory.

Arresting people is not powergame. Arresting people is not metagaming. Security had the full backing of not only logic but the law itself to arrest you. In fact, you would probably be tried by the Sol Alliance and sentenced to /years/ in prison, not a few hours in a holding cell. In the spirit of keeping with the broad generalizations I've read in this topic, there's been too many upset people over legitimate arrests recently. Security has no obligation to metagame - yes, cutting antags slack, feigning ignorance, purposely being a complete and total idiot because you know they're an antag is metagaming, as you are letting OOC information affect IC actions. If you're counting on security to go light on you then your plan was bad from the beginning. And another thing you people seem to regularly fail to grasp:

Security are human beings too. While I do not condone certain actions taken by security that shift, like beating unarmed people, as I believe it to be a hallmark of shitty behavior, I can sympathize with so much shit going on that you lose track of who did what and who is innocent because everyone likes to run all over the damn station and never show any fear or pain when tased, flashed, or otherwise. Everyone takes shits on security and they are regularly left to handle very stressful situations and then prisoners and then each other by themselves which leads to prisoners being forgotten or brigged longer than they have to be. People make mistakes; yes, when the AI said that the engineer who did not take part in the strike should be released, someone should have listened, but you would be surprised how easily information like that can fall to the sideline when a high risk situation was going on, and it is my understanding that it was, from bomb threats to someone trying to chop the captain's head off earlier that round.

Revolutionaries can kill heads and security, but they are expected to have a good reason to do so. 'Viva la revolution' is not a good reason. Security is also expected to have good reasons to kill other people, and more often than not they do. In my opinion, I feel this complaint has stemmed from ignorance as to how the gamemode actually functions because no report ever ousts the revolution and misunderstandings between revolutionaries, security, and situations occurring in the round. Security is people, antagonists are people, and staff are people. All can make mistakes, and everyone should be treated as fairly as possible. No cutting someone special slack. And as was said in OOC many times, admins don't know what's going on unless you adminhelp. It was my understanding that you didn't do that, so to jump immediately to a staff complaint when this topic is better suited for Suggestions is something I don't agree with.

[Cassie]

If you were listening to me, what I'm saying is not that the Centcom report is hardcoded or not - I couldn't care less. The fact is that the current rules (or so called, excuse of a lore to uphold this game mechanic) is allowing that downfall to happen, regardless if the centcom report is hardcoded or not doesn't matter. If the game mechanics don't work with that - change it.

You've upped the RP on the revolutionist side, so why not up the RP on the security/centcom side to compliment it in a way that gives both a balanced chance of getting a fair round as well as decent RP.

And speaking of hardcoded, let's look at that together:

 

Any crew caught off duty without leave from their Head of Staff are to be warned, and on repeated offence, to be brigged until the next transfer shuttle arrives, which will take them to facilities where they can be of more use.")

 

That's rather funny isn't it, considering my actual bar (I'm the bartender, remember) was shut down, and my liaison was an assistant (no duties) - we both got permanent brigged. So, I'm sorry, that does not fly.

Oh, and we weren't warned.

 

 

Even so, it's a ridiculous game mechanic still, it doesn't matter if you wrote it or not, I'm telling you it's dysfunctional.

 

 

Why would security throw all of us, whom, some being duty-less assistants (excluding engineering) in the permanent brig then? Why was there no RP investigation, no roleplay of an interrogation or an arrest, or perhaps even a scout/informant going undercover if a mutiny was suspected? Could they actually prove we were "off-duty"

I can damn well tell that security did not question or investigate anyone. They also specifically arrested everyone in batches, because that's what people on non-rp servers do when they see a huge group acting weird on a rev round. Now, I get that this a security player error, but what I'm saying is that admins tied into this by allowing the permabrig deal + allowing the gamemode to run in that state under the existing rules. It allows this thing to thrive and admins were pretty "meh" about it in LOOC.

The convenient part about the "trial at Odin" thing is that there's no way to possibly worm out of the situation RP-wise, innocent or not. That gives security the power to grab huge bunches of people, innocent or not (potentially using meta-knowledge) and get them out of the game with minimal effort, they don't have to scout, prove, or anything. So you see how both the bad players that round and admins inadvertently supported that.

 

So if you convinced engineering to commit these quite frankly high profile crimes (you would not be employed after this was brought to light) you are an instigator and can and will be charged with the exact same charges they have been; 'conspiracy to commit grand sabotage' or something along those lines. If you assist in or instigate a criminal act you are liable to be charged as an accessory.

 

Fun fact:

I was not confirmed, found, or to my knowledge, even suspected of telling engineering to do anything. I was simply in the room with them. I could have been a follower, a person they brought along, who knows? I don't even know to this point if security identified me as a "leader". Heck, they couldn't even prove I helped them, I was spotted and arrested.

But forget me being caught - I can understand being arrested. But I'm honestly surprised how you've left the revolution game mechanics for the sake of "realism" (which is quite a flexible thing) of not having a formal investigation/trial on station.

With this, I'm certain security can have any revolution round in their favour if they can pull the trigger on a group of people.

 

I can sympathize with so much shit going on that you lose track of who did what and who is innocent because everyone likes to run all over the damn station and never show any fear or pain when tased, flashed, or otherwise.

 

Let me tell you about security, they were jumpy as fuck. You could tell, obviously OOC'ly the players were damn itching to get an arrest. Hovering near basically everyone. I don't even care about the hardcoding shit. After all, we revs didn't play to win - I personally enjoyed rp'ing with my comrades, but security didn't even try to roleplay with the people they caught. In fact, one moment from cuffing and chaircuffing and bedcuffing to actually flashing for some weird RP-sadism on a person who can't even run away. Get this - players are human too? This is not the first time this had happened, and even admin-liked characters do this.

Imagine when you find out the predicament when you realize the revolutionaries are the only ones RP'ing the conflict, I don't really even recall when the officers brought us in to ask "WHAT ARE YOU UP TO?" or "Who are you?", or "Why did you do this?!" but instead you're dragged in (and let's not forget the innocent ones who got brigged and lost a quarter of their game time due to our lovely perma-on-suspicion-because-no-trial lol system). Forget the players playing sec for a second here, it's the admin tolerance and defense of it in-round that irks me.

Revolution is an excellent gamemode and has been pulled off wonderfully with serious RP before on different servers. Usually security just stand away and observe until they pick up a whiff, and I personally think a revolution is useless unless you can kill/kidnap heads.

You can actually respawn in this game, there's no need for the whole anti-death protection thing, in my opinion.

Don't try the "revolution is just bad or you don't understand" because I'm not the only one who was displeased with how things ran. The best part of revolution is figuring who and who isn't a rev, if you can just throw whoever (without even checking if they're actually even breaking these so-called hardcoded Centcom commands) in the permabrig, you might as well start the round and ask everyone to make way to the brig.

And yes, my displeasure was both at the admins and the players playing security, though I find the administration's tolerance of the game mechanics being uneven with the borderline prison camp sec was allowed to run was ruining the round. Ironically with all these safeguards to "have a good rp experience", that simply did not happen.

If this was a one-off thing, I would have shrugged it off, but it's a server-wide thing and it manifests into problem-wide rounds just like this, and it stems from a mentality.

As I've said, I honestly don't know why this server has a control-freak atmosphere about it. Might as well open secondlife and RP there instead if you can't handle SS13 gameplay. Honestly. But whatever, your server.

[Susan]

For the record, trials are never held at all ever during any round, not just revolution, and that is never going to change.

I do think you hold a point in criticizing that security and the heads are expected to do dick things during revolution; I've never liked this outlook on the gamemode at all because it fosters shitty roleplay on security's side. However, the reason this is the status quo is because people have complained en masse about it being too hard to find something to revolt about. This is in essence what I feel is wrong with revolution and why it is an awful gamemode - with no Central directives and without command staff and sec being needlessly assholish, there really is no reason to start a revolt. What, are you going to scalp the HoP because the bar's closed? It jumps from people finding things to bitch about they never had problems with before because rev and then blowing up sec because the vending machines sell food that is too expensive.

However, it is a great stretch to blame staff for the current game mechanics because they have been this way for a significant period of time and if you check suggestions and requests you will probably find maybe only one topic about changing revolution, if you're lucky. People bitch in OOC all the time but what they fail to grasp is when you do bitch in OOC or Dsay we, or at the very least, I am disinclined to listen because complaining through those mediums is incredibly common and half the people who do it are not invested in this community and don't even have a profile on the forums. I can assure you the staff didn't convene some kind of malicious meeting about how revolution should be handled; they have an outlook that seems to have satisfied most of the playerbase even though I disagree with it.

The last point to make is if you feel security does not have enough evidence or reason to hold you and they're so anal IC you can't use those channels to explain yourself, or if you just feel wronged, you can adminhelp. You should always do so in any situation like the ones you've described; as a security player, I don't tolerate mass arrests + permabrigging without follow up. In the real world, the police do arrest everyone on scene sometimes for the sake of safety, yes, but in the end they let most of them go as you need to actually be charged to be held in custody. The detective or CSI should have been questioning people. I understand, though, that you feel admin response here was not what it should have been.

Personally, thinking on it, I feel this complaint is a result of revolution being a less-than-stellar gamemode (mutiny is far better) coupled with some in-character mistakes and misconstrued expectations of security. I don't think much of this will be changed as a result of a staff complaint; I reiterate a suggestions topic might achieve more, short of the issue where admins excuse certain security behavior during revolution, and I am unsure this topic alone will do much to change their mind without, again, a discussion in the suggestions subforum.

[Cassie]

Look Susan, here's the problem.

This whole thing is a part of a bigger problem them stems from something I've noticed for ages. Firstly, it just seems how the RP is set up on the server is really out of balance.

This might sound really random considering the main topic, but I believe it is related.

Like, firstly, I really just don't like the general atmosphere and many core gameplay mechanics based around the rules, and a suggestion topic won't cut it because it seems that admins have each other and their friends (who mostly happen to play sec/heads) and anyone outside that circle doesn't matter. It's not this round in general, it has manifested in many other rounds through similar means. Heck, to me, serious RP about having realistic well rounded characters and their reactions to the universe around them, as well as having detailed me emotes, space drama, and character interactions.

But perhaps, for example, what is meant by this server being "serious rp" is having a court system out of the actual shift (because "space station", duh!), devoted so much to the realism that actual gameplay experience suffers.

There's literally little to no SS13 charm in the server, which I assume is the purpose? By SS13 charm I don't mean clowns throwing pies and people farting on each other, I mean, actual exciting gameplay - though we might have different ideas on what is. I'm now learning that a server where Centcom loses too much of it's eccentricity is usually like this.

I've never seen a single event (apart from revolution) that actually includes civilian-action role-play on this server (and to be honest, this plagues most serious RP servers), which is why I am disappointed it ended this way.

But perhaps a lot of you haven't grown out of the fascination of having no non-sec action and a emoting an RP relationship or a non-human character and calling it fun on extended mode for months at a time. I've been RP'ing for years now and I find it boring, maybe that's my problem. I don't see why you can't have both, but either way I can't really rat on more about that. Fair enough, that's your community.

But then again, people who defend this usually play as heads/sec/centcom anyway. Not usually on the receiving end. I don't really play those roles much these days, so I witness it or be on the receiving end a lot. All I've had to say on this matter has already been said. I thought I'd speak my mind. That's all.

[Frances]

Finally, a thread that's actually interesting.

Anyway, two sides to the issue here. First is the behavior of sec in that particular round, and second is how the rules of rev are currently set. Correct? So I'm going to look at both of them separately.

 

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Firstly, the behavior of sec. There is a big core tenet, not only to heavy-RP, but to multiplayer games in general. Every player's action should attempt to generate enjoyment for others, and if not, at least not completely fuck over a single person or an ensemble. This was not respected here.

I understand the objective of putting everyone in permabrig - mass arrests put non-revs in contact with revs, and give them a reason to join the revolution. Additionally, it forces everyone to group in an area, and come up with a battle plan, because they are actively being fucked over by sec and very unhappy. There's just one problem with that.

There ain't shit you can do in perma.

Yes, if you stuff a few people in it, their friends can bust them out. But if you perma everyone, it kinda sucks, because their chances of escaping are near zero. Everyone's gear they already assembled is hidden outside of perma, all sec officers will be watching perma because you've got 6+ people in it, and there's a gas system that will be used the moment a remotely intelligent officer sees the prisoners are revolting. No one's left to bust you out, and no one's left to cause trouble on the station, so sec only has to watch you guys and you can't do anything.

Putting everyone in perma and throwing away the key ends the round. I'm not saying perma is bad - it can serve as a lovely source of RP during rev rounds. But you don't keep everyone in it.

NanoTrasen can play space hitler in rev rounds if they want. ICly, they can do the meanest, most ridiculous shit, and impose the greatest suffering imaginable on fictional 2D spessmen. However, they still have responsibilities to create fun OOCly.

Here's a list of fun things I've seen hitler-security do:

 

• -Public beatings
  
  -Public executions
  
  -Arresting people over minor charges and releasing them (the type you generally wouldn't care about)
  
  -Arresting a group of people and releasing them
  
  -Stripping troublemakers of their job access and sending them to do forced labor on the mining asteroid

 

Yes, some of these things don't make sense from a "NanoTrasen is a corporate entity which operates by a precise charter of rules and regulations" point of view. But that's not what RP-rev is about - RP-rev is about a group of disgruntled employees literally overtaking the station like some 17th century mutiny on a ship. And the easiest way to do that (aside from a revolution paid by the syndicate or whatever, which gives non-revheads little incentive to act) is to turn all the heads into egomaniac, power-crazy assholes.

Now, here's a list of non-fun things I've seen hitler-security do:

 

• -Putting everyone in perma then not doing anything
  
  -Arresting somebody for a long-ass time just because they're upset or acting weird (that's not even meta-ing at this point, you want these people out to get the round going unless they've literally killed somebody)
  
  -Loyalty implanting people
  

It seems to me like all of that was done this round. Now, I don't know if sec had actual plans on what to do with the people in perma before glorious meteors hit, but it's not the first time I've seen sec do "blanket-arrests" during rp-rev and it turning out horribly.

What sec should do is arrest those people, interrogate them, then release them if they don't have any evidence. Because from an OOC perspective, that makes sense. If sec sees you goof, they should give you some sort of punishment for it - if they don't, they don't really have any valid reason to keep you. And this interrogating has to be done quickly. Invoke the "space Geneva convention" or whatever for all I care, but if you keep innocent people in perma for too long, players start to get bored really quickly. So brig everyone, yes, but figure out who's actually done shit as fast as you can, and release these people (then put the others in normal cells, don't give em a life sentence until they've killed someone or you clearly can't control the station pop anymore). That way, you still look like a dick and make people ICly angry, but you don't prevent anyone from being able to roleplay.

To conclude on that particular set of security behavior - a good player /should/ know when to give antags some leeway. This doesn't mean being a terrible shot on purpose and completely failing to arrest your common criminal - but when security is jumping to permabrigging everyone, and suggests mass-loyalty-implanting (do you want to kill a rev round? Because that's how you kill a rev round.), that's a fair bit of meta-ing. And the HoS of that round definitely needs to be talked to, because I do not know how they were planning to have their actions carry a positive outcome for the players.

So yes, sec should do terrible things. They should also /not/ remove anybody any chances to revolt unless they've damn well proven ICly that they're going to revolt until they die.

 

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This post has gotten incredibly long, so I'll post the part about the second issue brought up in a separate one.

[Frances]

The RP-Rev roundtype as a whole. Does it suck? I frankly don't know. It's resulted into some good rounds - however, if it fucks up too often, then it's something to be looked at.

I've noticed two main issues with it. The first is that sometimes, revs won't do anything. The second is that sometimes, security will go super hard on the revs, and basically nip the revolution in the bud, ending the round. In order to birth a healthy ten-pound revolution, you don't want either of these things to happen.

The problem of the revs not doing anything has partly been taken care of. The command messages (pay cuts, bar being locked down, etc) have given some spark to the conflict, and security's overall propensity to being dicks also helps. However, despite that, it still sometimes happens that the revs are dreadfully inactive, and end up doing, basically, nothing.

At this point, the fault isn't only on revs. It's on the players as a whole. And here's the particularity of a rev round: when nuke ops or cultists all suck, you're kinda boned. When rev-heads suck, you can actually take the matters into your own hands, because you don't need to be a rev to act like one (if you know what you're doing). While most other antags exist because of some sort of out-of-round motivation (and we don't give everyone a rev job right away because some people will start shooting at random while yelling "viva la revolucion"), revs are pretty much regular Joes who got really pissed with middle management. And the cool thing is since we're a roleplay server, it totally makes sense for people to start revolting if they see terrible things happen (and not because they got a button prompt from someone who was a rev-head).

So players need to realize they need to step up and start causing some trouble if nobody will. Because there's always a few proactive players on every round - but I sometimes don't see them act for the sole reason they're not antags. That's a bit silly. If nothing is happening and you think you can bring action to the round, hell, ahelp it. We'll be glad to let you.

 

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Second thing. The curse of dickish security.

Again, as I explained in the post above, security can be rather fun while being assholes. I think a few people have forgotten that, and resorted to a "we must crush the revolution!" mindset rather than "we must foster the revolution by being terrible yet entertaining!"

These people need to be talked to. Jobbanned from sec, if necessary (if they reeeeaaaally don't listen after being told to stop doing certain things). Will that help the quality of rev rounds? Probably a bit. Will it help them majorly? No. This isn't an isolated problem, and if we want to fix the general dynamic of rev rounds, we're going to have to do more than just single out people and talk to them.

So, where do we go from here? Suggestions forum. I haven't played much on servers besides Aurora, and thus I'm (mostly) ignorant of other roundtypes. However, if "mutiny" seems promising (whatever that is), bring it up in a suggestion. If it makes more sense than rp-rev, we'll try it out. If the players actually enjoy it more, there should be no issue with replacing the gamemode.

Note: There's some things I haven't addressed in these two posts, like your complaint that a lot of rp/events favors combat roles. It's a valid gripe, but there's a lot of stuff in this thread already, and I don't want to get lost by tackling on too many issues at once. Feel free to ask me about this, or create another thread about it.

[Skull132]

As much as I want to speak my mind here, specially on the conduct of the security team, I am going to steel myself until the commander in question is given a chance to make his case.

[Guest]

The problem here being that revolutionists are essentially "declawed" and watched over by an Admin team to prevent ganking and shit RP from occuring, while security are not.

A security officer can do the reasonable thing during a mutiny and silently baton you down, cuff you and then implant you.

A revolutionist, however can not do the reasonable thing and silently e-sword the captain to death for the glory of his revolution.

Antags are forced to engage in saturday morning cartoon villain mustache twirling and dastardly monologue, while the security force can just run in and stun the fuck out of them without the slightest hint of a handicap.

A sec officer who throws 4 traitors in the permabrig is a robust officer, a traitor who kills 4 sec officers is a ganker.

The question, thus is - How can an antag provide interesting RP for the crew if he gets stuncuffed 5 seconds after commiting any crime?

Im going to go ahead and make the wild accusation of revolution and cult gamemodes always having admin favoritism on security's side.

Favoritism to the point where we might remove both and replace them with a "Skeletor mode" in which the spawned antagonist's only objective is to fail his evil plan and get permabrigged as soon as possible, so security can go back to SSD'ing in the medbay lobby or yelling to stop comm chatter.

[Frances]

A sec officer who throws 4 traitors in the permabrig is a robust officer, a traitor who kills 4 sec officers is a ganker.

Security cannot do that - and I always felt like admin (and player) response over killings has always been too much on the carebear side.

Revs can kill people with justification. Sec can permabrig people with justification. Permabrigging everybody because "you saw them act suspicious" is not a fun way to conduct a rev round, and is something that should be ahelped.

[Valkrae]

As one who has played a very terrible Head of Security during one of these rounds, let me state one quick point.

Security goes out of their way to be as extremely assholeish as possible during these rounds. We're trying extremely hard to give the Revs something to revolt over, and we take it overboard, and forget what we were doing in the first place.

I had a really amazing round whilst doing this very thing. Let's start off:

First, I begin the round as the only Head. I'm the HoS, and I immediately tell my Security Officers not to take any shit. Not only that, I start restricting even more areas than the hardcoded directives. I restricted the bar to anyone save my Sec. Officers and heads of Staff. I think I even closed the Hydroponics bay and Cargo. This goes on for a while, and I end up arresting a Tajaran for acing 'Suspicious', which in reality, He was just doing his job. This causes a really long butterfly effect, and there are constant arrestings, beatings, and escapes happening all at once. I somehow end up in the Medbay, and fall unconcious. I wake up, on the operating Table, with a 7 foot tall Unathi standing in front of me. It's the Revolutionary Head. I'm cable cuffed, and thrown into the wall, and he rakes his claws down my face. Due to some Doctor coming in to check the situation out, I dart out of the door, and run down the hallway, into the Virology entrance airlock. I hide in the locker, and remove my cable cuffs.

Once I've removed them, I rush back into the hallway to see my fully armored sec officers bust down the doors to Medbay. They toss me an energy carbine and a stun baton, and we rush the operation bay. We rush in to met four revolutionairys. It what is to date, the funniest gunfight I've ever been apart of, We end up killing the Revs, with only one death. The round pretty much was calm from then on out.

The point of this story is to remind all of you that sometimes hitler-sec doing non-fun things can end up being fun, If the Security Officers are focused on the roleplay during these rounds.

[Frances]

The point of this story is to remind all of you that sometimes hitler-sec doing non-fun things can end up being fun, If the Security Officers are focused on the roleplay during these rounds.

No, see, there was nothing wrong in the description you provided there because security's actions did not prevent players from playing out the round. Yes, being arrested over BS is frustrating, but I'm assuming none of these people were permabrigged - additionally, there was some clear abuse from sec other than just "we're gonna grab all of you guys and put you in perma", things that while shitty ICly, do not prevent players from actually roleplaying (beatings as a punishment, for example).

So it's not the same situation. We shouldn't confuse things that are bad from an IC perspective from things that are bad from an OOC perspective.

[Valkrae]

There were people permabrigged. But there were multiple there, and they were all given chances to prison break out. That was our main goal that round, let them stage a prison break.

[Guest]

You see, a think a big problem is that security jumps straight to round ending dickery, such a permabrigging and loyalty implanting, when they should mostly stick to lighter dickery, such as a public beating, or a random rant about how THEY'RE ALL VERMIN UNDERNEATH MY BOOT! IF I CHOOSE TO STEP DOWN THEY WILL ALL BE sQUISHED AND THAT IS MY PREROGATIVE THERE IS NO HOS FOR I AM GOD!

The kinda stuff that pisses people off, but leaves them with something to do.

[Rusty Shackleford]

This is just a little bit of speculation that I'm posing here, but what if this trend of security permabrigging all suspects and revs jumping to drastic measures almost immediately is because none of us even like rev on a basic level, and it's just something to get done and over with so we can get back to the RP that doesn't involve multiple counts of murder and arson?

[Frances]

This is just a little bit of speculation that I'm posing here, but what if this trend of security permabrigging all suspects and revs jumping to drastic measures almost immediately is because none of us even like rev on a basic level, and it's just something to get done and over with so we can get back to the RP that doesn't involve multiple counts of murder and arson?

If this were the case, rev would not be voted in in the first place.

[keinto]

It also doesn't help that the current Security roster consists of so many disrespectful Officers. Now, I know I'm mostly known for playing exactly just that: Roy Wyatt, a 'disrespectful' person, but he isn't Security, and it is from the perspective of constantly playing this character that I write this. Officers like Ana Issek, Apophis Quihtzin, Winston Carton, Nia Snyder (or the other Snyder, don't know) and Jackboot's Officer Jawdat whose first name I can't recall nor spell right now, just to name a few, have constantly picked on Roy for his attitude, sometimes without any provocation from him which leads to an almost-instant detainment when he responds back, or have openly yelled and/or insulted crewmembers when they see them doing something out of the ordinary.

The argument that all of these people are also living beings, therefore it is natural for them to get aggressive verbally, doesn't stand because it is a crime to Insult a Head of Staff, or an Officer on duty. Some Officers have more tolerance on the people who commit said violation, but if Security also does this on a constant basis, then the crime should be listed as 'Insulting a Head of Staff' and nothing else. The way I see it, if Officers are put on the same level as Head of Staff in terms of protection against insults, it is implied that they are not to do the same thing. I have yet to see or hear about any of these Officers (except for Isilithai) being detained for ANYTHING non-antag related, like abusing detainees or Neglect of Duty, something I'm sure would have happened by now had Security not shown favoritism toward each other.

This is almost a whole thread on itself, but it ties closely into why Rev rounds turn out the way they do, so that's why I've posted it here.

[Eliot Clef]

I have yet to see or hear about any of these Officers (except for Isilithai) being detained for ANYTHING non-antag related, like abusing detainees or Neglect of Duty, something I'm sure would have happened by now had Security not shown favoritism toward each other.

This is almost a whole thread on itself, but it ties closely into why Rev rounds turn out the way they do, so that's why I've posted it here.

 

I'd been contemplating whether or not to make a thread discussing Security recently. Maybe such a thing is exactly what is warranted.

But, I do wish to remark on this. I play Security regularly -- almost exclusively -- and the fact of the matter is that if most of the Security force is super aggressive, it's really hard for a dissenter to get any sort of realistic traction on correcting the issue. I've stepped in and ordered Officers to desist in problematic behavior, and I generally go out of my way to give them the opportunity not to force me to actually arrest them. But actually carrying out an arrest on another officer is often pretty tricky.

If I were to arrest, for instance, Uaekis for being overly violent I just don't see it ending particularly well for me. I'd expect to end up demoted for my trouble, more-or-less ending my round. When I've ended up being alone in manning security and had solo officers who have stepped out of line, I do in fact arrest and defacto demote them if I need to. Had somebody detain a traitor and torture him with his own e-sword recently, in fact. Dealt with that just fine.

With the regular security crew, I don't feel as if internal correction is very possible except in really exceedingly glaring cases of misconduct. The less security is around the more room there is for truly bad security to be addressed, though.

I'm generally inclined to go light on people overall as well, but I have to admit that the more often I do that, the more often it bites me in the ass.

[Covert0ddity]

Okay. So, I've been neglecting to post on this thread, and I will be now. To touch on a few issues, I'll just try and cover what I saw in the round and convey what I thought. I don't quite remember it, most rounds usually are just 'get it done and forget' for me.

So, let's go to when I joined. I joined sometime from an hour to an hour and a half into the round. I had two SSD officers and either no detective, or an SSD Detective. Vittorio Giurifiglio, (Tytos_Tyris) Was the HoP, and Evan (or Elliot, I forget, ckey Inverted_Rectum) was the Captain. Vittorio gave me a general sitrep, which included an attack on the captain with a deadly weapon, an energy sword, and attempted to cut off his head.

I then asked my security team, (Comprised of Imraj Brar (Canon35), Apophis Quihtzin (kingmatt99) and... I /believe/ David Wahlberg was also there.) They gave me pretty much the same Sitrep. After some time of relative silence and someone who vandalised a window, I got thrown on a bunch of information very quickly.

First: A massive group of engineers and some civilians were amassed in the engineering department, and power was slowly draining from the situation. I dispatch all awake units from the brig, and started procuring Riot Gear, (This was also the time that CC ordered everyone to be perma-brigged when they were off-duty.) After we start taking in the engineers, there's another report of someone running around with a pulse rifle and unknown (deathsquad) armor. I order my units to take them down, (That was the 'hossstilesss' part) and have him transferred to permanant holding along with the engineers, for: Conspiracy to commit grand sabotage + grand sabotage, defiling CC orders (exceeding official powers, I guess?) and resisting arrest, becuase I recall Quihtzin or Brar that they were not coming peacefully.

Now, after I did this, becuase we had no detective, I was going to question them all in the permabrig. When attempted to do so, I instead was slipped by water that, I forget who put it there, but I believe it was Roy Wyatt, or Camile that put there. After I slipped, I flashed William DeBerg, who took the opportunity to attempt to beat the shit out of me.

After that, I gave up trying to question them, and the captain came in to... sit with them? Becuase he wasn't even speaking, I have no clue. I don't know what happened with the nitrogen, and when the meteors hit, I had myself and the other officers attempt to rescue the prisoners, (I only think one died.)

The shuttle was called and I started to board, when one of the revs, (This issue was dealt with by another moderator, TishinaStalker) attempted to welderbomb me. He just ran up and started to cut open the fuel tank. I drew my weapon and took him down and hit him with my baton, putting him in the cell with the others. This is when Drew arrests me for excessive use of force, (Of which I agreed with) and then the round ended.

I was working with limited information, and probably made some bad calls. I should stick to my promise of not playing heads during rev rounds. I hope this maybe enlightened a few things.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

Okay. So, I've been neglecting to post on this thread, and I will be now. To touch on a few issues, I'll just try and cover what I saw in the round and convey what I thought. I don't quite remember it, most rounds usually are just 'get it done and forget' for me.

So, let's go to when I joined. I joined sometime from an hour to an hour and a half into the round. I had two SSD officers and either no detective, or an SSD Detective. Vittorio Giurifiglio, (Tytos_Tyris) Was the HoP, and Evan (or Elliot, I forget, ckey Inverted_Rectum) was the Captain. Vittorio gave me a general sitrep, which included an attack on the captain with a deadly weapon, an energy sword, and attempted to cut off his head.

I then asked my security team, (Comprised of Imraj Brar (Canon35), Apophis Quihtzin (kingmatt99) and... I /believe/ David Wahlberg was also there.) They gave me pretty much the same Sitrep. After some time of relative silence and someone who vandalised a window, I got thrown on a bunch of information very quickly.

First: A massive group of engineers and some civilians were amassed in the engineering department, and power was slowly draining from the situation. I dispatch all awake units from the brig, and started procuring Riot Gear, (This was also the time that CC ordered everyone to be perma-brigged when they were off-duty.) After we start taking in the engineers, there's another report of someone running around with a pulse rifle and unknown (deathsquad) armor. I order my units to take them down, (That was the 'hossstilesss' part) and have him transferred to permanant holding along with the engineers, for: Conspiracy to commit grand sabotage + grand sabotage, defiling CC orders (exceeding official powers, I guess?) and resisting arrest, becuase I recall Quihtzin or Brar that they were not coming peacefully.

Now, after I did this, becuase we had no detective, I was going to question them all in the permabrig. When attempted to do so, I instead was slipped by water that, I forget who put it there, but I believe it was Roy Wyatt, or Camile that put there. After I slipped, I flashed William DeBerg, who took the opportunity to attempt to beat the shit out of me.

After that, I gave up trying to question them, and the captain came in to... sit with them? Becuase he wasn't even speaking, I have no clue. I don't know what happened with the nitrogen, and when the meteors hit, I had myself and the other officers attempt to rescue the prisoners, (I only think one died.)

The shuttle was called and I started to board, when one of the revs, (This issue was dealt with by another moderator, TishinaStalker) attempted to welderbomb me. He just ran up and started to cut open the fuel tank. I drew my weapon and took him down and hit him with my baton, putting him in the cell with the others. This is when Drew arrests me for excessive use of force, (Of which I agreed with) and then the round ended.

I was working with limited information, and probably made some bad calls. I should stick to my promise of not playing heads during rev rounds. I hope this maybe enlightened a few things.

 

I didn't give you a sitrep that was the captain I believe, I just said "Engineering is full of Traitor" or commies or something essentially bad

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

Okay. So, I've been neglecting to post on this thread, and I will be now. To touch on a few issues, I'll just try and cover what I saw in the round and convey what I thought. I don't quite remember it, most rounds usually are just 'get it done and forget' for me.

So, let's go to when I joined. I joined sometime from an hour to an hour and a half into the round. I had two SSD officers and either no detective, or an SSD Detective. Vittorio Giurifiglio, (Tytos_Tyris) Was the HoP, and Evan (or Elliot, I forget, ckey Inverted_Rectum) was the Captain. Vittorio gave me a general sitrep, which included an attack on the captain with a deadly weapon, an energy sword, and attempted to cut off his head.

I then asked my security team, (Comprised of Imraj Brar (Canon35), Apophis Quihtzin (kingmatt99) and... I /believe/ David Wahlberg was also there.) They gave me pretty much the same Sitrep. After some time of relative silence and someone who vandalised a window, I got thrown on a bunch of information very quickly.

First: A massive group of engineers and some civilians were amassed in the engineering department, and power was slowly draining from the situation. I dispatch all awake units from the brig, and started procuring Riot Gear, (This was also the time that CC ordered everyone to be perma-brigged when they were off-duty.) After we start taking in the engineers, there's another report of someone running around with a pulse rifle and unknown (deathsquad) armor. I order my units to take them down, (That was the 'hossstilesss' part) and have him transferred to permanant holding along with the engineers, for: Conspiracy to commit grand sabotage + grand sabotage, defiling CC orders (exceeding official powers, I guess?) and resisting arrest, becuase I recall Quihtzin or Brar that they were not coming peacefully.

Now, after I did this, becuase we had no detective, I was going to question them all in the permabrig. When attempted to do so, I instead was slipped by water that, I forget who put it there, but I believe it was Roy Wyatt, or Camile that put there. After I slipped, I flashed William DeBerg, who took the opportunity to attempt to beat the shit out of me.

After that, I gave up trying to question them, and the captain came in to... sit with them? Becuase he wasn't even speaking, I have no clue. I don't know what happened with the nitrogen, and when the meteors hit, I had myself and the other officers attempt to rescue the prisoners, (I only think one died.)

The shuttle was called and I started to board, when one of the revs, (This issue was dealt with by another moderator, TishinaStalker) attempted to welderbomb me. He just ran up and started to cut open the fuel tank. I drew my weapon and took him down and hit him with my baton, putting him in the cell with the others. This is when Drew arrests me for excessive use of force, (Of which I agreed with) and then the round ended.

I was working with limited information, and probably made some bad calls. I should stick to my promise of not playing heads during rev rounds. I hope this maybe enlightened a few things.

 

I didn't give you a sitrep that was the captain I believe, I just said "Engineering is full of Traitor" or commies or something essentially bad

[Guest]

and Evan (or Elliot, I forget, ckey Inverted_Rectum)

 

I wasn't the captain, I spawned as a rev head surgeon, but had my title given to someone else while I went to cryo in the beginning of the round.

[ForgottenTraveller]

Just a few notes as the AI of this round

Security

Uaekis, Brar, Quihtzin,Wahlberg, and K.I.S.A.

The 'Rebels'

Crafter, Saylor, DeBerg, Leon, and Xullie.

The 'Innocent'

Byrsten

Crafter, Saylor, and Xullie were first on the radar by breaking through lockdown from the bar to the arcade after being told to leave the bar. This required tearing down tape and hacking a bolted door (clues).

As for the engineering case. Engineering was crashing the power for the entire station and turning off cameras setting up high level computers and hacking all the doors to subvert the AI being able to use it (clues/investigation). During this time Crafter and Saylor were breaking into the security checkpoint at arrivals looting the boards from the cameras and a weapons charger as Saylor was in her body armour and carrying her shotgun about (investigation).

Security was dispatched to collect the three engineers involved. Crafter and Saylor then came in through the drone fabrication area bringing the boards and the weapons charger they stole. As such security knew you all were involved before they breached engineering to collect you. At the end of this collection after you all ran with Leon and Xullie held alone by Kisa deep in engineering. Jag came along trying to get into engineering to fix the power and was mistaken as an accomplice. Security was informed by myself that Jag was not part of the known rebellion but was ignored.

As for your handling in the brig. Enroute a full list of all charges of each individual without accomplice and mutiny charges were read out by myself to the officers. The end result of all of these being easily spotted during the breach of engineering. For most of you it was akin to a man standing over a dead body covered in blood splatters and holding the murder weapon as the police showed up asking what did I do wrong after they were arrested. Over and over. And over. The only one who had the right to do that was Jag and he was using all the wrong words in trying to get them to take him seriously.

There are also no trials. Only tribunals used by the heads of staff. The victims and perpetrators are often never involved. Thirdly as by association and the individual crimes known without a mutiny charge involved grand sabotage leading to shutting down of medical among the many other issues and other high crimes which would leave you all in perma until round end to be taken to a civilian prison to get an actual trial and spend years in prison. There is and was no need to establish beyond reasonable doubt. You were witnessed, found, and known to have committed all of these as absolute fact. And both parties knew that to the point of the rebels running and attempting to escape into the maintenance tunnels the moment the breach of engineering happened causing resist and manhunt charges to boot.

As for the meteor strike. All prisoners were recovered in a team effort of myself Kisa and security team opening and closing hazard doors and airlocks to the awaiting medical team. To ensure you had air in the area you were going to. I am aware of only one fatality. That being the individual who ran away from extraction twice into the vented room. Then after the singularity escaped. All living and dead prisoners were evacuated.

As for code red only being fun for ERT, sec, and antags.

WARNING RANT HERE

I call bullshit. Code red often involve a high danger factor for the crew leaving the main halls a danger zone. Engineering is often in need to do some repairs due to this fighting and are often about in the quieter areas doing their job. Medical is busy collecting from the field and working on within medical the injured or dead. Research is often making some items to aid the station. Supply ordering particulars to relieve crisis zones or supplying engineering or research in their endeavors. The Janitor and civilian departments get shut down is that a little rough. Yeah. But here is the thing. There are assistants with no where to go. Open up the bar a little pile in there and have someone piles the tables against the windows and doors for protection. Sure you may be stuck in an area /meing (code green is /meing in that same room but not stuck in it for many of them.) but you can make a considerable effort to the protection of the station by just battening down your hatches, passing on what information you have and making suggestions on what you know of the situation even if it is as little as getting a medical crate from cargo sent to the bar so first aid trained staff have something to do in there. A well equipped potentially very mobile self defended self healing mob that with enough access and manpower to evac the other half of the station by aiding some of the other departments. You are locked in a box because danger and death is outside. Plan for when the danger reaches you and have a way out.

RANT OVER.

[Guest]

My question to you Traveler is, was that fun?

Busting down in full riot armor and stunning the shit out of some generally unarmed engineers the moment they dare to actually carry out an antag action, was it fun?

You know, I bet that all the rev leaders involved could have armed their little team with revolvers and e-swords and shot that security team to bits.And you know what would have happened?Bwoink. At least one ban, and the round being considered the clusterfuck of the week.

The people taken out of the round WERE antags, this is obvious. The problem here is that security can cross the invisible borders of "No ganks allowed" and "No shit RP allowed" which bind antagonists and shoot their guns to their hearts content.If you're going to let security casually call the ERT and raise the code to delta every time an assistant breaks a tool storage window, you should either give Antags the permission to murderbone any redshirt that comes after them the second they're seen in a suspicious situation, or just settle for spawning hivebot mobs for a progressively more asshole-ish and inept security force, like some other places I'd rather not name.

[Susan]

What you fail to realize is the stark difference between 'gank' and 'arrest'.

Can you roleplay with your head shot off, or when you're gibbed by parapen and C4, or when you get e-sworded to bits? No, you can't. You're dead, permanently if the antagonist is an asshole that stuffs your body in a fuck-off locker in maint or a locked personal closet where you'll never be found; or if they dispose of your head as well. But can you roleplay when you're in prison? Yes. Yes you can. The long and short of it is that a large angry mob of workers is a risk for officers - riot cops don't walk up to angry mobs and politely ask them to disperse. What you are describing is more akin to 'if I can't revolver decap every sec officer I want them to have a cup of tea with me and discuss the finer qualities of life before they arrest me'. That's not how it works.

I'm not advocating running up and stunning the fuck out of people for minor crimes. I'm advocating logical escalation of force. And in a sitaution with a disgruntled crowd damaging private property riot police are indeed logical application of force. What you people cannot seem to grasp is that arresting people 'doesn't take them out of the round', especially in large numbers. You have people to RP with an organize escape attempts with. You're not dead, the victim of some highly shitty parapen-esword wombo combo forced to watch all the delicious roleplay without being able to participate. Even a damn ten minute brig sentence seems to piss people off. In my opinion, you guys need to get over it. Get over that you've been arrested. Bitching won't change it. You got caught out, stop whining, stop complaining, stop 'omg shitcurity'. Yes, there are situations where security is really shitty, but if you have to ask yourself 'would a cop have done this' and the answer is yes, you've got no grounds to bitch.

Angry mobs. Threat to property and others. Arrest all then question. This is how the police work. And you being privileged enough to be able to interact in that roleplay. So instead of crying like a sore loser, just swallow it and roleplay. If sec has good reason to keep you, and more often than not they do, you're gonna be kept. Trying to finger every legitimate arrest as some kind of powergame-y 'y didnt sec ask me to politely surrender when i blew up 3 areas' argument then there's really no hope.

Sec is doing their job. They are afforded ways to go about it and while you might seem being immediately stunned and arrested while performing a high profile or violent crime as gank, it is actually totally justifiable and completely logical. Short of low-priority crimes and suspects who comply, those involved in murder, grand sabotage, sexual assault, aggravated assault, or anything like that are threats to officers. You'll notice that in a lot of cop shows, they like to arrest the guy before anything else. And by that I mean they kick in the door with a warrant and point guns at him then collar him like an animal. This might be slightly exaggerated for effect but if you are a murder suspect you'll probably have an assault rifle pointed at you some time.