Character Complaint - Uwasv Guwan

[Snakebittenn]

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Elohi something?

Reason for complaint: In my experience in playing here, I have met many fine Unathi, many that roleplay the lore in interesting and accurate ways. However, there is one that is a source of stress for me, and that one is Uwasv "Sidanelv" Guwan.

It appears to me that this character has no actual reason for being a Unathi in the first place.

They shun Unathi culture, except for making spears to combat threats.

They shun 'traditionalist' Unathi.

They even date humans, and only hang around them.

They act, essentially, like an off-colored human.

It appears to me as well that this character roleplays being a Guwan very poorly.

They do not take any regret that they are a Guwan, they have no negative thoughts about it as far as I've seen, their status as an exile seems to not affect them in the slightest. Not to mention, likely to remain a sympathetic figure, they do not actually have any real reason to be in this position except 'I was born orphan.' or something to the effect.

This character is far too extraordinary of a Unathi to leave my immersion into Unathi RP intact.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Nay, as I have read that reporting 'le snowflek member of species' belongs in this forum, also so that I could hopefully coax dialogue out of other parties.

[AllyBearsley]

While I have had several interactions with "Sid" and can say several of them were interesting, I can fully agree that his character often comes off as less of an Unathi and more of just a human who exaggerates his s's. I can understand an outcast trying to get on well with humans, but that's all "Sid" seems to try to do. He just uses his Guwan status as less of an exile and more of an excuse to just be around as few Unathi as possible. The actual backstory around the Guwan title seems less of an actual part of the character and more of an excuse for people to feel sympathy for him.

Now that being said, my biggest problem with Sid isn't really Sid himself, but the atrocious metaclique that has formed around him. There are too many people who will flip their shit and basically lynch anyone who so much as brings up the fact Sid is an outcast. Call him "Guwan" they remind you his name is "Sid". Refuse to simply to do this, prepare to be on their shit list forever. They are extremely aggressive about making sure every negative action done to Sid is avenged tenfold, even if it is just a minor one. Threats have been made, fights have happened, and I feel this attitude is very poor for overall RP and general interactions on the server. It's fine to be upset that someone insulted your friend, but show a bit of restraint and basic understanding.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Guest

[Elohi Adanvdo]

Hey there! Sid's player here.

There's actually MANY reasons for 'Sid' being 'Sid', and I'll try to explain them as best as I can here. It's mostly hidden to other players, and I understand why you'd jump on the whole 'he doesn't shout muh honor' bandwagon. I've had a few chats with Jackboot to make sure that everything is kosher, and they seem to be. I like to try to keep everything a 'find out ICly' thing, but that's obviously not going to work in this situation and as I've said, I understand.

Guwans are... typically a unique Unathi. Either they do not conform to their society, are a trouble-maker, or just plain stubborn. Quite a few that I've seen that I've RP'd with seem to be like regular Unathi that for some reason are named Guwan. I've also seen a few Unathi that act like Sid in quite a few ways, human-like, that are not Guwans. There are one or two, that do act like Sid in some ways that are in fact, named Guwan. But I don't jump on them for that; I don't know their character's story.

I've read into their lore often as with all species; my actions are not based off of ignorance, instead I'm creating an opportunity for a unique experience for all parties involved. So, with regret, here's IC/OOC, spoilers to explain why my character is the way he is:

As you know, Sid's an orphan. I've spoken to Jackboot- if you're unable to keep/defend your land for a reason (such as my character's young age and no income), you will be taken to court and essentially have both your name and land stripped from you. Angry, because not only had he just lost his family, but he also lost his only home, he decided to rebel- he's already a Guwan, so what's the worst that can happen? He give them a real reason to be named Guwan. However, his rebellious nature got him in trouble several times, each having harsh punishments. People were fed up having to deal with him. Eventually he scraped up enough money for himself to leave his homeworld behind for Odin. He had matured enough at a point to decide that it wasn't what he wanted, and that he wanted a fresh start somewhere that he won't be judged. He also wanted to leave the warring worlds behind- ittook both of his parents and he's weary of it. When he reached human space, he was fascinated with their mostly open, broad, flexible and accepting culture, and because of it, embraced it. He got an education, and a job with NT.

Now, for the most important part: Sid actually hates being a Guwan. He was the last of his clan, a family of three consisting of only his parents and himself. He feels deep guilt and not being able to keep it, and that were he to pass as a Guwan, his family name would basically be forgotten, and he doesn't want that. He wants his family to be remembered, even if it's only him- he wants to prove that his name is strong and worthy, like the rest. But in his current state, he can't do much. He's assimilated too much into Human's society, and doesn't know what it means to be an Unathi; his father died from the war before he could teach Sid how to be a proud male Unathi, and his mother too sick to teach him about their religion or culture.

So today, he's trying to fight to get his name back- essentially a recovering Unathi. He's asked for guidance from an older, respectable Unathi who accepted. He's slowly being taught the ways of his race, but it's hard for him. Because of his experience with humans, he struggles with quite a few things. Why are women treated like property? If spirits exist, how come they're so cruel? Why are Guwan treated so poorly? It's a long process, but he is learning, and he is calming down.

Now for the last IC issue: Socialization. Sid tries to stay away from other Unathi for a reason. He's tired of being judged all the time because of his name, and being treated so poorly by others. A prime example is Kiilor Rikozsi, who attacks him every chance he gets, and trying to goad him into a fight. 20 years of harassment wears you down. With Humans, he's accepted, and cherishes the few friends that he has as if they were his family, because they're all he has. Besides trying to earn his name back, they're all that keeps him from turning Guwandi. And as for the dating thing- he doesn't see other races as races, but just as other people. He's noticed quite a few similarities between each race. He has no right to judge people. And for the dating thing, like I said, he sees people as just that- people. But he isn't actually 'dating'. He still wants to earn his name back. And, he has fallen in love with a female Unathi, and wants to be with her. Not because she's a ticket back to earning his name, but because he genuinely has affections for her. She makes him want to do manly things like go out and fight 20 carp for dinner for her. She's also the reason why he's asked for another Unathi to tutor him. He wants to try to make himself acceptable in her eyes. However, the character that he has fallen in love with hasn't been around because the player has been on a hiatus. But they're still going to play, and Sid still hopes to earn her affections and be seen as a worthy Unathi.

For his attitude, he does have anger issues. He does have the Unathi 'let's go kill stuff' mode- but ICly he hates fighting. He wants to keep his job, and losing your temper can actually be seen as distasteful to other Unathi. And, as always, he sees physically fighting others as a reminder of how war starts- you lose friends and families, and he's afraid of going too far, because he gets incredibly worked up. He'd rather settle things in a more passive, clever way. Proving that you can keep your head and being smart instead of seeming to be a dumb spear-wielding warmonger is just as good as using any other muscle. I'm also trying to keep spears to a minimum. Like I said, he likes his job (spear are contraband, obviously), and finds his bare hands far more satisfying to use when facing threats. Bear wrestling is very manly and gives adrenaline junkies their thrill. But he's more or less trying to teach himself to be calmer and more level-headed instead of making rash decisions that could get into trouble. He's done that enough when he was younger.

And for the Metaclique? That is 100% unintended. I do not wish for it to happen. I can understand that ICly his friends take pity on him or thinks he deserves respects, but it can, and sometimes does, get out of hand, and is a little irritating ICly and OOCly. Sid can't be a manly man if he can't defend his name by himself. And I'm sorry if it's been an issue- I want to make things fair. It's probably accidental on their part, and see if I can bring it to their attention.

tl;dr Being orphaned gives the Guwan title, he was pissed and rebelled, eventually moved to human space, liked humans for their accepting culture and basically assimilated, eventually felt regret at being a Guwan and is learning how to be a proper Unathi, and does have a lady-'Nathi love, and wants to earn his family name back.

If you need more elaboration (I don't see why you would, you just suffered reading through a wall of text), let me know. I hate giving away so much spoilers, it takes a lot of fun out, but in this case it is necessary. Many see him as humanized and in a way it's true because he assimilated (it happens today with people all the time, i.e. individuals of other 'races' moving to different cultures to be accepted), and think 'oh they don't know lore etc. etc. That's actually quite the opposite- I've read a lot of lore, and decided to take a more unique, interesting approach. An angry, rebellious youth who lost his way and wants to be welcomed back to the big happy family and be recognized as a respectable member of his society. He will always remain different because of his experiences; he dislikes the Hegemony for causing unfair slaughter, and traditionalists for their, well, overly traditional and outdated views on society. He feels that no matter the race and gender, people should be treated as people and deserve to have their own opinions. He's lived being judged and treated as a 'subhuman' (Subnathi?), and is rather open and accepting. That's his main thing that will always stay. He remembers always wanting to be accepted, and is willing to give others a second chance.

[DatBerry]

All my issues with sid are IC and are with one character only, that said; I think you can put more effort in making his deguwanification more visible, especially to other unathi.

if he's planning to go back to the unathi world, he can't keep ignoring conflict with the other liggers. Kiilor would serve as the best nemesis for sid, whom he kills at the end of season 3 and gains his honor back.

as said before, i think you should make his struggles more visible, if an xeno is acting like just a hissing human, that makes people less likely to bother figuring out why and effectively, you end up just a hissing human.

[sonicgotnuked]

In my experience in playing here, I have met many fine Unathi, many that roleplay the lore in interesting and accurate ways. However, there is one that is a source of stress for me, and that one is Uwasv "Sidanelv" Guwan.

It appears to me that this character has no actual reason for being a Unathi in the first place.

They shun Unathi culture, except for making spears to combat threats.

They shun 'traditionalist' Unathi.

They even date humans, and only hang around them.

They act, essentially, like an off-colored human.

 

Sid is not one of those characters that trigger me, I will interact with them and it is fine most of the time when I do. I think he has a good reason to be a Guwan, he does not like stating why he is a Guwan inside comms, and he told me why yesterday when I was trying to get the succ on him during a changeling round. Sure, he wants to be a Unathi being de-unathitized in human space. After a while spending all your time in human space, I bet any ligger would want to start fitting in, these are not cats, because cats see becoming a human very bad. I do decently understand his struggles of wanting to stay away from people who give him a hard time.

All in all, this could of been pointed out in a PM and I don't really feel the reason to make a character complaint on this sort of topic when it is not a character who insainly triggers a shit ton of people. The player also is not a person who purposely tries to make a shitty character to trigger a ton of people.

Sure, he wants to shun ligger culture, sure he wants to make a spear (There are good reasons WHY he makes a spear, he does not make it lol random) Sure he is a cross species date muh human in human space, I bet that human would be bullied on station also because of their unholy and sinful love together.

I guess that is what I have to point out.

All in all, I personally the best thing to do when you don't like a certain character is stay away from them and ignore them. A engineer and a assistant can easily get away with doing just that. You would expect interaction of you make a rant on comms about him being a Guwan and why he is on station.

[Coalf]

Most of these complaints boil down to "I don't like how the character is designed." instead of being a legitimate issue, but one thing Ally touched on that I have to agree on is the "fame" around Uwasv.

Now the reason Uwasv has this "fame" is exactly because he wasn't acting like your normal Unathi, normal Unathi are almost always un-approchable hardasses that are extremely toxic to their enviroment this is exactly why Uwasv gathered such a following because he broke the said mold, he's the most approchable Unathi on station by a non-Unathi, non-agressive person.

I've had a few talks with him and it's clear he still is a Unathi being unreasonably upset for the most trivial things and being incapable of crossing a room without making a grudge BUT he's the unathi that can go the farthest without developing said grudge, do keep in mind this is an anecdotal example but I think it fits. Just because he's more emotional doesn't mean it's a bad character.

He was a Guwaned for being an orphan which is probably the most unfair way to become a guwan and since the society rejected him since his early childhood he too rejected the society, now if Uwasv became a Guwan later in life this would be in-excusable behaviour but this makes perfect sense.

Of course he isn't without fault, the metacircle is an issue like I said but there is a very thin line between a metacircle and a relationship and so far I have seen ONE person taking it maybe a bit too far. Also do remember that relationships can be a oneway ship, just because one character wants to shag the other doesn't mean the other character thas the same intentions and believe me I know plenty about that.

Second Elohi is a person and Uwasv really isn't the most non-unathi, unathi I have met, some didn't even put effort into it and Sid does last time I had an actual talk with him he was clearly upset he is a Guwan which is a natural response to someone who is Guwan, he resents the society that created him but ultimately still seeks affirmation of that society, much like a kid wants to be aknowledged by their dad even if their dad abandoned them.

Honestly this is more of a "I don't like the way this character is designed," than a "This character ignores the lore to be a fursona."

He clearly aknowledges the lore and works withing it's confines.

tl;dr I spend a lot of words on saying what people before me already said.

Still good work on making a character complaint, we have too many people complaining about other characters not doing anything about it besides bitching a lot, this enables Elohi to potentially fix his character if there is something wrong with him or to explain why he acts like he acts and we could all use a character complaint against us once in a while.

Except me because I'm perfect.

[Elohi Adanvdo]

I do appreciate feedback, and though making a character complaint gives me slight anxiety, it gives the opertunity for me to see what others think.

One thing I forgot to mention, Uwasv uses Sid as a nickname to help others better identify him from the other Guwans because there's sometimes more than one on board. If you radio over comms, "Guwan to the HOP's desk", you might end up three instead of the one you intended. So, he took a portion of his last name as an easy, simple nickname that's easily memorized and simple to pronounce for non-Unathi. It also goes along with him fighting back against the Hegemony for their unfairness: It allows him to get away with at least partial use of his name, and they can't do anything against a nickname. In this way, it also comes as a form of comfort; at least a bit of his family's name is being used, and remembered.

For making the deguanification more visible: It's a bit difficult for him to interact with other Guwan and people in general in 'fear' of being judged and treated like trash, but as of late he is socializing more frequently, trying. It's because a few Unathi treat him like Kiilor Rikozsi does- like absolute trash because of a name from the very beginning without even getting to know him. It's automatic and senseless. As a friend put it, 'Why waste your time trying to suck up to something that hates your guts?' He did have one friend before, but they stabbed him in the back kek. Humans are just more accepting of him, and he likes being accepted. But he also wants to be accepted by his own people- he wants to be a part of what his parents were. Currently he has one teacher, one love interest, and one 'ligger from another hisser'/bro or whatever that are all Unathi.

For his attitude, he's trying to get a handle on it with some help. Along with being educated on the ways of the Unathi from a teacher, he's incredibly embarrassed that he needs help at all for several obvious reasons.

There are some things that may never go away. He will still be cocky, might still talk like he does, and view others as equals decpite race and gender. It may be slow because it takes time and might not be apparent from the start, but over time he will become, in the least, a decent, educated person. If they've lived life a certain way for so long, it's very hard to change a person. I put a lot of thought into my roleplay, and I have backstories and plans up the wazoo for every character. This is not just me flailing about- this is a complex character that is struggling with what he wants in life- does he stay the way he is and abandon the people that shunned him for another kind that is more accepting? Does he go through rigorous education and become a part of something he hates- a part of an unnecessarily violent, outdated culture? Or does he take the middle ground, and perhaps become a part of a new movement that's already beginning with others- Unathi that abandon the outdated ways for more equality, while keeping some of the traditional, more acceptable parts of his culture?

I'm pretty irritated that I have to explain all of this because I like to keep it in the 'find out ICly' spirit, far too many people meta and it's more exciting to do it all ICly, but if you don't interact with Sid often, and he often just keeps to himself ("I'm going to be quietly edgy in this corner so I don't have to deal with being harassed"), it's easy to assume and jump to conclusions. My character's acceptable unique situation makes roleplay very interesting for both me and other players (I hope). He's an Unathi being rehabilitated. How often does that happen?

[AllyBearsley]

I really don't have too much to add to the complaint, since things have been explained in a pretty good way. However, I have slightly more than a little to say about things expressed here. First I really don't see Coalf's point in pointing out "I don't like how this character is designed" since I believe someone simply saying that could bring up something further; however, it can also just show that maybe it's just the person talking's perspective is off and the other talks around the complaint can help.

I don't see nuke's point in just making a PM/DM is because sometimes you don't even kind of know the player of another character and we have this board for a reason so why not use it? I don't see having your character on this board as any huge negative. It's simply a place for someone to make a complaint on a character and hopefully have it resolved. Now that's not to say that maybe they couldn't have, or I believe that PM/DM's are useless. I'm just saying sometimes using a board for its designed operation is fine too.

And for Elohi, I am a guy who is learning that sometimes "find out ICly" doesn't always work for char dev to others. Sometimes you're working on something for a character, but others perceive it differently or completely incorrectly. Sometimes people see glaring flaws in it that simply hasn't been expressed further in IC and need it cleared up OOCly before proceeding. People will meta regardless of what you do. Sometimes for character development it is good to plan with others how you want to reach your end goal, so that the end goal is actually obtainable.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Hello,

Thank you for making this complaint: I disagree that there should have been a PM between the players, as per:

https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3585

Guwanship was created as a way for Unathi to be subversive with a cost. Guwan's are untouchables for Unathi. It was a way for me to be lenient with such behavior in an in-character way, and it became its own fad.

Having a supportive group of friends who endlessly defends him and shields him from persecution guts the point of Guwanship: being persecuted at the 'cost' of being such an outcast.

Being in human space it's not really required that they constantly face discrimination from humans. The fact that they need human bodyguards to defend them should be humiliating, though. It's also hard to make the IC punishment a "punishment" if they have this circle of white knights.

I don't know if, with the unique situation of Sid being so popular, that he's really able to fit into any of the intended categories. He's not being punished and he's not really experiencing oppression and persecution, or self-hatred. He's just acting self-destructively in ways that are un-Unathi.

Unathi are entirely about social status and responsibilities. They don't have real ethnicities or races; it's all about your last name and how you act and behave in life.

There's no real way for me to reinforce this behavior in-character because it seems the problem that when other Unathi try to do the proper thing and get snide with Sid, Sid has his friends come to his defense.

The posts in the complaint have helped me justify some of the problem areas and boil it down to what I think is the primary issue.

If a player wants to be a Guwan and be so anti-Unathi, then they need to be able to actually be discriminated against in interactions. Having xenos come to his defense so often would probably get him jumped off work hours, because every aspect of it is extremely offensive.

So this is a really strange situation. I don't know how in the world "stop enabling white knights" can even be enforceable.

I will spend more time getting feedback on this issue. Further feedback would help me better understand the issue and what others may feel are the primary issues.

[MoondancerPony]

To be entirely honest, I think Sid's character is fine. What isn't fine is the sort of cult that's formed around him. While I get that, of course, he'd have some friends, and most of them I'm fine with, there are certain characters who seem to like him for no other IC reason than 'I love all Guwan!!', and to avoid causing trouble I won't bring them up. There also may be some sort of OOC bias from those players, too.

Keep in mind this isn't referring to the characters who interact with Sid on and off station, on the IC relay chat, on events on the IC relay and in the other IC discords, etc. This is referring to characters who, in my opinion, don't really have any ties to Sid other than the fact that he's a Guwan and the character likes Guwan or just xenos in general. This would be fine if it were played off as an unhealthy obsession or something similar to that, but from what I've seen it isn't.

In my opinion, the issue isn't with him, it's with the obnoxious characters that tend to cling to him for no reason.

[Scheveningen]

Honestly this is more of a "I don't like the way this character is designed," than a "This character ignores the lore to be a fursona."

He clearly aknowledges the lore and works withing it's confines.

 

I'm going to point out that any form of argumentative discourse that goes this way, whether posted by server staff or not, is not an acceptable level of grounds to judge a character complaint. The complaint is valid in its concerns regarding the minor issue as to how a Guwan is able to have such a popular following that their circle of white knights would probably beat the shit out of traditional Sinta critics.

I empathize with the OP. It is extremely difficult to deal with characters that are supposed to be outcasts that have their own reinforced clique of white knights that would defend their pet disenfranchised minority character to the death, from an Unathi perspective. Not all more traditional Unathi need to engage this, however. Uwasv already sustains an incredible amount of shame by itself for being defended like this by humans. It would be appalling to any Unathi to see this for themselves, some would be enraged, others would be sad for how depressing it is for such a creature to fall so low in Unathi societal standards that the only friends they can make are aliens.

That alone is disgrace enough. Unathi are supposed to ignore the existence of Guwan, however. To be casteless and clanless makes you less than an animal, and it is not worth the notice of a traditional higher-born Unathi. It sullies the reputation of true Sinta to be seen conversing with an outcast.

Uwasv is fine, but the extremely aggressive clique surrounding Uwasv needs to learn to tone down how they defend their friends. It's not the fault of Sid that his friends are acting like white knights.

[Munks]

I don't see this happening if he would ever have actually made an attempt to talk to the people in his clique about toning down the constant white knighting. It happens because he lets it happen. He certainly seems interested enough in being the center of attention, because every time he rolls antag as well he still plays Uwasv, just using the antag status as a conversational piece and acting like a completely normal crewmember otherwise. It doesn't make the round interesting for anyone else but his friends.

Only hangs out with humans. Acts human. The very basis of his character is that he rejects everything about Unathi culture. Wouldn't even be "Guwan" if he wasn't forced to. I don't see how the entire blame for the issues with his character can just be placed on his following.

[Scheveningen]

Logs, game ID, or git.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Actions as an antagonist are not a whitelist issue outside egregious circumstances. Behavior while an antagonist is an administration issue first, and they come to a species overseer if they think it's a longterm issue from their whitelist.

Please do not post accusations or testimony without a gameID, screenshots, or logs. "he said she said" does not help us.

We are still looking into this and I will come to our conclusions in a few day's time.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I'm sorry that this complaint sat for so long. Because this sort of thing has no precedence for me I wanted to make sure I looked into it enough to come to a fair decision.

I asked members of moderation to keep tabs on the character's behavior since I last posted and tell me if they noticed any trends or anything else. Based on what they have said, the problem is not inherently Sid but the people around him. This fits in with the other statements on this complaint.

Here are a few of the statements made by members of staff.

 

Yeah. [Elohi has] come up with a reason for most of their actions and it's a welcome departure from your carbon copy Unathi. Which basically all of the others are. And it isn't lore breaking. Just because other players facilitate a clique doesn't make it the fault of Elohi. It's just a testament to decent character development.

 

It is mostly the people around him, rather than Uwasv himself.

The accent has been brought up as a little offputting, but other than that they don't try to fuel any kind of clique.

 

they act like a unathi that's broken away from traditions, but not against lore

 

With all of this in mind I can't really justify punishing Elohi. I also have personal experience from them coming to me and asking about anything that Sid does that might break the lore, so I can believe that Elohi is acting in good faith.

I can't take any action against Elohi or Sid for all of this because I do not want to punish Elohi for the behavior of other people, which is outside of their control. We can, however, try to shift the complaint to the individuals within the metaclique itself.

If you find that people are breaking server rules, or acting in ways that are unrealistic and unfair to everyone else, I would say that a complaint against them would go along better, because then the responsibility for the white knights fall on the people actually doing it.

[Scheveningen]

I should stress the last point he made. We cannot take action against people breaking the rules or acting aggressively in order to protect their clique ICly. It's not Uwasv's fault that these people are acting this way. If they cross the line of decency that we expect non-antagonists to avoid toelining, you should say something. There is no shame in wanting roleplay quality to be better.

Since Jackboot posted his resolution I'll assume it's fine to close this.

Complaint resolved.