Why can't IPC's be heads?

[canon35]

How about we just let every race be heads, if one is barred then this topic is gonna keep popping up and causing a shit storm everytime.

[Baka]

How about we just let every race be heads, if one is barred then this topic is gonna keep popping up and causing a shit storm everytime.

 

Because people have to accept the limitations which comes with races. They are not forced to play said race, after all when they had applied they literally agreed to play the race the way things are 100%, head of staff rules for them included.

[Susan]

I don't know why Tajaran are becoming such an easy target but I think it might have something to do with the fact that people seem to not be able to understand Tajaran lore. Let's start at the beginning.

Tajaran were never 'enslaved' like blacks were in the past. Their history is one that might be equated to slavery, but in reality, they were ruled by an oppressive government institution that had the peasantry perform menial tasks from construction to mining to home making. They weren't exactly treated well by their leaders, and a majority of profits and land (whether you lived on it or not, ho taxes!) were owned by the government. In essence, Tajaran were mistreated and abused by their government which ultimately boiled into a worldwide conflict and war where they systematically eradicated their government leaders and any icons they associated with them, including literature.

For a long time, Tajaran couldn't be heads, and that is all well and good. When I was appointed cat loremaster, I'd decided that since it had mostly been that way since Aurora's conception as far as my information led me, that it was time to start trial running cats in non-important head positions. Some, specifically Jackboot, made it to HoP before a second conflict broke out on cat planet, sparking terrorist/revolutionary movements, and discrediting Tajaran from important head positions like HoP and Captain for a very long time.

Tajaran are not a race of slaves; they are a race of oppressed peoples who have thrown off the shackles of one dictator government and are passionate, where very few ever want a return to how things used to be. Yes, there are high crime rates. Yes, there is discrimination. But the reason a cat can be a head and an IPC cannot is that a cat has critical thinking. A robot is programmed. It is not free thinking. It cannot break standard procedure to do something else. A Tajaran can go 'hmmh, this isn't procedure, but it might just save the lives of my crewmen', whereas a robot one hundred percent cannot do that because it is programmed. You cannot program gut feelings, or intuition, or anything that makes a good leader. IPCs are machines. They were built by humanity. They are equipment.

No matter how many people take issue with this fact, as a member of the lore team, I will do my damndest to ensure that it does not change, because you need to understand the restrictions placed against certain alien races. This isn't Hypatia, or Best RP, or Reddit. I don't know why I'd see people complaining about 'furries' and 'yiff yiff' since that line of thought is contrived and incorrect. I am in charge of Tajaran. I have pulled out all the stops to elevate them above that, and I find it insulting when people imply that Tajaran are special snowflakes who have nothing bad happen to them, when in fact, I even went out of my way to have an event where NT locked them up to find terrorists in their cat workforce. They aren't respected highly by the galaxy; how crew on the Aurora treat them is not conducive to the galaxy's mentality. Do not shift the blame onto other alien races with anecdotal evidence, because I can assure you that almost all of the IPCs I have seen are angsty metal humans who seem to fail to grasp that they are equipment and not people.

[Guest]

because I can assure you that almost all of the IPCs I have seen are angsty metal humans who seem to fail to grasp that they are equipment and not people.

 

And in my opinion, that is all they should be.

They are highly advanced computers. They may fool themselves into thinking they are sentient, but they are sapients. They were made by mankind to serve the entirety that is mankind.

That is all they ever will be. I don't want any preconceived notions that they will rise above this and become killer robot overlords.

[SgtSammac]

Can I just ask, even if its already been stated. Specifically why you want IPC's to be able to be heads?

In addition, if you think that the players of other species being able to be heads, are playing those roles poorly, why not make complaints?

[ZipZero]

Let me make this brief, before Inverted gets the thread locked.

The fact that we're talking about IPCs, rather than bound positronic intelligences, is proof that IPCs are free thinking, and can do things not strictly within their programming.

Consider this. IPCs aboard the station are, generally, positronic intelligences that had served bound by laws under NanoTrasen for many years before being able to purchase their own freedom. Why then, if they were unable to think outside their programming, would they have any desire for freedom? Surely, nobody programmed that in - even if someone had, I'm sure NT would have no problem deleting that programming. This is 442 years in the future - do you honestly think technology wouldn't have advanced to the point where artificial intelligence can do the same things humans can? Decades ago, most people could not have imagined how advanced our computers are today - do you really think you can imagine how advanced they would be centuries in the future?

And don't try to say "Oh, human brains are special, robots have no soul" because no, human brains are not special. It is nothing more than a complex piece of physical matter. You can give a person chemicals to make them feel a certain way, or cut out parts of the brain to remove someone's senses - there is nothing special, or magical about that, nothing that truly makes it different from programming besides a current lack of understanding - and considering the existence of MMIs, cloning, and loyalty implants, I would say that understanding would have been reached. The point is, our brains, our bodies are nothing more than biological machines; it would be no more accurate to call an IPC a machine than it would be to call a human one.

They are not tools, they are not equipment, they are not machines. They are sentient, and sapient, people. Dionaea don't even have brains, yet I don't see anyone clambering to decry their personhood - why all the hate on synthetics?

Now, I'd like to bring this to my main point. The head restriction on IPCs is not an issue with them being ill-suited for head roles, or inferior to humans in the way they think; rather, the issue is with people thinking these things, and thus, being disgruntled with the thought of synthetics having a position of authourity over them. Which is a position I can understand existing at that point in time, seeing how it is shared by many people today, as demonstrated in this thread, and hundreds of years have only barely reduced discrimination between our own species in the real world. In fact, I was going to just accept that people thought this way, and leave it there, though I disagree with it, of course.

But then something happened. A few days ago, on a future round, it was announced that unathi were able to be captains 20 years past the point in the future where we usually play. And it got me thinking - if unathi, who are only able to be HoS/HoP, are able to take up such a high position as captain for future rounds, what about IPCs? I'm not asking for captain here, of course - but why not one of the head positions that don't hold as much power, such as CMO?

And, one final thing to consider. If you were, as a NanoTrasen official, in charge of approving or denying every employee's application to become a head of staff, who would you rather choose for a position - someone who has worked for the company for decades, has shown complete loyalty, and can literally download all knowledge required for their job directly into their brain? Or someone who has only worked for you for a few years, and isn't fully qualified for the position they are applying for?

[Cassie]

Yeah. It depends on how they were programmed. It's actually very flexible and totally up to whoever is writing the lore.

This is my take on it. Yes, they were intended to serve humans, but to my knowledge most AIs portrayed in fictional futuristic universes think almost exactly like humans with emotion simulators (Because it's the year 2500+ not the year 2020), and the "laws" were the only safehold to stop them from going "You know what? Humans are tacky. Let's kill them.". I'd imagine transhumanism being in place in the NT universe to liberate them, stop them being trafficked for money, and also stop them from wanting to destroy humans, etc

In my imagination I'd imagine IPCs would be a peoples that are slightly apathetic to everything but realize they now need to gain currency like everyone else, and that have said to NT, "We don't want to be lawed. We think of ourselves as human. We're only working because we were built for a role like this and there's nothing else to do."

 

But the reason a cat can be a head and an IPC cannot is that a cat has critical thinking. A robot is programmed. It is not free thinking. It cannot break standard procedure to do something else.

 

Firstly, that sounds more like a cyborg/robot than an IPC, which is basically a simulated human (people can't tell the difference between a robot, cyborg, android, and so on - as a sci-fi fan it's a bit worrying to watch). Not even bay devs can get it right. Maybe we need an establishment of what an IPC actually comes under?

Robot: Basic umbrella term for anything mechanical. In the sci-fi world it means: Completely mechanized form, mind and body.

Cyborg: Partially mechanized human, either of mind/brain and/or body. See; partially human.

Android: Has a robotic body for a robot. Mostly human in appearance. (Can be made from human parts like a cyborg, but must have a robotic mind)

tl;dw: Completely forgetting that biological brains are also programmed and we too, unknowingly follow a pattern of intricate and complex options based on physiology, brain patterns, etc. We react and respond to stimuli and so on. Sometimes you would realize from a non philosophical point of view that humans are also complex computers who follow a set range of behaviors, and so do animals.

[Tablespoon]

People have been giving great reasons for why IPCs should be heads, and I actually agree with some of them, OOCly.

However, ICly the universe is not perfect. Prejudices exist, things are not fair and people have differing opinions. IPCs are relatively new and so the public at large is still unsure how to deal with them. They /may/ be able to develop emotions or the synthetic equivalent but prejudice exists against 'the machines', maybe not the kind that involves firebombing but people concerned that an IPC, seen as a robot or android, could be their boss.

There's also the matter of making the races fundamentally different, in terms of background and playstyle. The IPC prejudice is a part of the backstory, and allows them to be played differently. Apart of this prejudice is the head restriction.

As Skull and I have stated before, we're both more than willing to discuss this issue in a private voice or text chat client. Just shoot us a message.

[Skull132]

...and can literally download all knowledge...

 

Nearly every input system needs to be coupled with an output system, even if simply for feedback. Security hazard. Information extraction from a loyal human would require fun things, like interrogation, which has the adverse effect of fogging the mind, providing false answers (provided only out of a desire to escape), damaging the subject, perhaps to the point of no recovery. Other means of information extraction carry similar risks.

Machines? Lock it, nab it, slave it, done. Bits don't lie, humans can.

This is only from a security threat point of view.

With that in mind, let's review what positions they would be looked at by higher:

Captain -- extremely sensitive information, no-go

Head of Personnel -- access to sensitive information, potentially?*

Head of Security -- extremely sensitive information, no-go

Chief Medical Officer -- general medicine, software hacks can have similar results to an IPC hack, go

Chief Engineer -- imprinted schematics, critical systems, potentially a larger threat than a compromised Captain due to the IPC's capacity to retain information, no-go

Research Director -- access to sensitive information, potentially?*

*IPCs seem better fit for secondary executive and managerial positions, where they simply need to keep tally and distribute, while having someone right above them to report to. Talking about positions such as a Quartermaster, as opposed to being a flat-out Head of Personnel or Research Director. This secondary position would free up the respective head to conduct further development and planning.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

People have been giving great reasons for why IPCs should be heads, and I actually agree with some of them, OOCly.

However, ICly the universe is not perfect. Prejudices exist, things are not fair and people have differing opinions. IPCs are relatively new and so the public at large is still unsure how to deal with them. They /may/ be able to develop emotions or the synthetic equivalent but prejudice exists against 'the machines', maybe not the kind that involves firebombing but people concerned that an IPC, seen as a robot or android, could be their boss.

There's also the matter of making the races fundamentally different, in terms of background and playstyle. The IPC prejudice is a part of the backstory, and allows them to be played differently. Apart of this prejudice is the head restriction.

As Skull and I have stated before, we're both more than willing to discuss this issue in a private voice or text chat client. Just shoot us a message.

 

So we're fine with Aliens who are nothing like us, Biologically or Physically Except being bipedal, But not....Machines that are intelligent and were made by HUMANS, Our species. We are fine with Alien leaders, but God forbid we have a Walking being with Encyclopedic knowledge running us.

[TishinaStalker]

Yeahhhhh... This discussion is dead and already being worked on with the whitelist species discussion we already had, Tytos.

[Vittorio Giurifiglio]

Yeahhhhh... This discussion is dead and already being worked on with the whitelist species discussion we already had, Tytos.

Bah I'm always late to the [arty

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I wish more people would act IPC's like in William Gibson's Neuromancer

RAM and ROM differences

take ROM like

neuromancer

and RAM such as

the dixie construct

and compare

if it's RAM it's basically truly artificial. it cannot retain new information well, it can't grow in any meaningful way and it is bound to repeat itself a lot. it emulates what it means to be a personality. often down to laughter lacking any sense of humanity. it doesn't feel. the only thing that might bother it is the fact that nothing does. it can provide interesting RP if you are, for example, retained memories of a person, residing in a construct, such as the construct in the book.

then there's ROM and it has the ability to learn and the ability to grow. It's not chained down to any one-track personality and can alter it's data when he wishes so. If per say an IPC would be a ROM, there would be no real reason to not let it be a head, actually, they would probably be more effective at their job then any organic. and it would also be interesting to see roleplay with these IPC's.

but then again does that make them too human and therefore there's no real reason to be one except potential prejudice?

pish, posh, just nerding out anyway

[Valkrae]

As the new handler for the IPCs, I'll tell all of you that discussion is happening about this ordeal.

More to come at a later date.

[Dea Tacita]

Locking due to this issue being resolved with the new Alien head positions being available.

View this for what positions are available for who.

http://aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1381