Make guns require a Firing pin.

[Dreamix]

(...) It also quite often taken me 30-60 min to get a bulk metal crate to Robotics. And that requires no command approval or anything. Imagine the time to get the firing pin crate... Now add that to a job which already spends all it's time in one room, using a few machines and waiting for mining.

Adding this hurdle would hinder new players learning RnD from accessing one of the most fun parts of it. Also it doesn't make super much sense to me (why wouldn't I just print the pin in the gun as well?). Doubt it is more complex than the "blabla-gun" I just researched the tech to get. And also doubt it requires fancy materials.(...)

1. You were probably waiting 30 mins for mining to mine and process the materials. Usual cargo orders should be fast, unless it's low-population dead-hour, where everything is kinda slow.

2. You don't need to order firing pins from cargo. There would be firing pins in the firing range. You could use them to test your guns in the firing range.

2,5. And even if you need to order them from cargo, it's just 5 minutes before the cargo tech mails it to your lab.

3. That may be a surprise to you, but you aren't actually inventing new things every round. You can't print a firing pin because the NanoTrasen and/or GameBalance doesn't allow you. Lame, huh?

4. And again, the "fun" part is already accessible. Just use the firing pins found in the firing range. (Also, I don't get what's so fun about firing your guns at a monkey or a metal wall. And I don't even see any scientists actually testing these guns anyway.)

 

Yet people rarely do, because this is a great community and the admins seem on top of things when shit does happen. Don't need this addition and I'm sure the effort to implement this could be used somewhere else?

I'll have to ask again. If you can order pins from cargo, or download them from your PDA as a traitor, what does this actually stop? What stops a self-antagging scientist from ordering a pin and using it? What allows the legitimate scientist working with the self-antagging scientist to use the weapons legitimately?

Because right now we have admins who do the job well enough.

I'd love it if people stopped focusing on the 'antagging scientists' part so much. It doesn't even really affect scientists that much. They can still test their guns in the firing range, antags get sweet as firing pins from the uplink, security has their guns like usual. It's not the end of the world, people.

Firing pins is just another interesting mechanic to add to the game. It allows many new things like stealing firing pins from armoury's guns as a ninja, and hoping the officers don't notice it and make them look like dummies when they try to fire at you. Or a gun that only an antag can use, that explodes when someone else tries it. Or simply ERT-only guns, so the janitor or nuke op can't use it against ERT. Generally personal guns, a paranoid Captain could have his e-gun locked to his ID or DNA. How about sabotaged firing pins that explode your gun after three shots? How fun would finding an unlocked firing pin in maintenance be? Would you carry a gun without a firing pin in your backpack? "But officer, this gun doesn't have a firing pin, it's really just a piece of metal and not a gun in its current state.

It could also change a guns "value". Basically, you have as many guns as you have unlocked firing pins. In the time of need, a scientist can't print an armoury's worth of guns and just hand them out to everyone like it's christmas. Now, this scientist has only 8 unlocked firing pins. Does he make the officers wait 5 minutes while he raises research levels to get laser cannons? If he does, will he give all 4 officers cannons? What if they can't wait, does the scientist print them sub-par guns now? What about other 4 pins, will he print smaller guns so the officers have backups? Or does he forget about security and just prints cannons for his science-buddies for self-defence? What if the scientist doesn't have too much resources? Will he print 8 good guns? Or 16 small guns? If the 8 guns with firing pins run out of juice, he could just remove the firing pins and install them in the other guns.

I believe, this is why firing pins could be an interesting mechanic, it adds depth or something.

[Superiorform]

(...) It also quite often taken me 30-60 min to get a bulk metal crate to Robotics. And that requires no command approval or anything. Imagine the time to get the firing pin crate... Now add that to a job which already spends all it's time in one room, using a few machines and waiting for mining.

Adding this hurdle would hinder new players learning RnD from accessing one of the most fun parts of it. Also it doesn't make super much sense to me (why wouldn't I just print the pin in the gun as well?). Doubt it is more complex than the "blabla-gun" I just researched the tech to get. And also doubt it requires fancy materials.(...)

1. You were probably waiting 30 mins for mining to mine and process the materials. Usual cargo orders should be fast, unless it's low-population dead-hour, where everything is kinda slow.

2. You don't need to order firing pins from cargo. There would be firing pins in the firing range. You could use them to test your guns in the firing range.

2,5. And even if you need to order them from cargo, it's just 5 minutes before the cargo tech mails it to your lab.

3. That may be a surprise to you, but you aren't actually inventing new things every round. You can't print a firing pin because the NanoTrasen and/or GameBalance doesn't allow you. Lame, huh?

4. And again, the "fun" part is already accessible. Just use the firing pins found in the firing range. (Also, I don't get what's so fun about firing your guns at a monkey or a metal wall. And I don't even see any scientists actually testing these guns anyway.)

 

Yet people rarely do, because this is a great community and the admins seem on top of things when shit does happen. Don't need this addition and I'm sure the effort to implement this could be used somewhere else?

I'll have to ask again. If you can order pins from cargo, or download them from your PDA as a traitor, what does this actually stop? What stops a self-antagging scientist from ordering a pin and using it? What allows the legitimate scientist working with the self-antagging scientist to use the weapons legitimately?

Because right now we have admins who do the job well enough.

I'd love it if people stopped focusing on the 'antagging scientists' part so much. It doesn't even really affect scientists that much. They can still test their guns in the firing range, antags get sweet as firing pins from the uplink, security has their guns like usual. It's not the end of the world, people.

Firing pins is just another interesting mechanic to add to the game. It allows many new things like stealing firing pins from armoury's guns as a ninja, and hoping the officers don't notice it and make them look like dummies when they try to fire at you. Or a gun that only an antag can use, that explodes when someone else tries it. Or simply ERT-only guns, so the janitor or nuke op can't use it against ERT. Generally personal guns, a paranoid Captain could have his e-gun locked to his ID or DNA. How about sabotaged firing pins that explode your gun after three shots? How fun would finding an unlocked firing pin in maintenance be? Would you carry a gun without a firing pin in your backpack? "But officer, this gun doesn't have a firing pin, it's really just a piece of metal and not a gun in its current state.

It could also change a guns "value". Basically, you have as many guns as you have unlocked firing pins. In the time of need, a scientist can't print an armoury's worth of guns and just hand them out to everyone like it's christmas. Now, this scientist has only 8 unlocked firing pins. Does he make the officers wait 5 minutes while he raises research levels to get laser cannons? If he does, will he give all 4 officers cannons? What if they can't wait, does the scientist print them sub-par guns now? What about other 4 pins, will he print smaller guns so the officers have backups? Or does he forget about security and just prints cannons for his science-buddies for self-defence? What if the scientist doesn't have too much resources? Will he print 8 good guns? Or 16 small guns? If the 8 guns with firing pins run out of juice, he could just remove the firing pins and install them in the other guns.

I believe, this is why firing pins could be an interesting mechanic, it adds depth or something.

 

Honestly, this has actually convinced me. I'm not sure about making "x person only" pins, perhaps maybe just for antags, but everything else does sound really fun. As long as we make the negative effect very very minor to scientist antags, I'd be down for this.

[Saudus]

As a method for stopping self-antaggery I don't think it'd work and seems against the server's general of policy of "administrate, not code, good behavior".

As a depth giving mechanic it could absolutely be fun for many, albeit to me doesn't seem special but at least not bad. As long as there are test fire pins available and printable, then I see no issue. If you have to rely on sec/cargo to even test them, then it seems bad to me. In the current form with the antags getting uplink firing pins etc, it would actually even empower antags as regular scientists will have it harder to print usable weapons.

[Pacmandevil]

As a method for stopping self-antaggery I don't think it'd work and seems against the server's general of policy of "administrate, not code, good behavior".

As a depth giving mechanic it could absolutely be fun for many, albeit to me doesn't seem special but at least not bad. As long as there are test fire pins available and printable, then I see no issue. If you have to rely on sec/cargo to even test them, then it seems bad to me. In the current form with the antags getting uplink firing pins etc, it would actually even empower antags as regular scientists will have it harder to print usable weapons.

 

There is currently testing pins mapped in already, along with a new firing range, but I'll think about adding them to the R&D console. that was a good point.

[MoondancerPony]

I'm sort of changing my mind on this. It still has problems, namely for antags that don't have uplinks.

HOWEVER. Lohikar mentioned possibly adding custom firing pins that are incorporated into the Integrated Electronics port from Polaris Lohikar is testing. In my opinion, that's a great idea, and I'd like to see it, assuming the issue with Revs/Loyalists not being able to easily get uplinks is solved.

EDIT: Dreamix, a bulk metal crate is able to be ordered from the engineering orders menu. Nothing to do with mining, and it's more of a general statement about how terrible some Cargo players can be, which I agree with.

[Saudus]

EDIT: Dreamix, a bulk metal crate is able to be ordered from the engineering orders menu. Nothing to do with mining, and it's more of a general statement about how terrible some Cargo players can be, which I agree with.

 

This xD. Working in science/robotics you really notice the quality of mining/cargo. Some shifts you end up getting showered with stuff from them and run down to their department with love poems and diamond drills. Some rounds you mutter to yourself, alone and poor, wishing you were an antag so you could bomb the shit out of them.

[UnknownMurder]

This is explicitly targeted to hurt traitor scientists. There are extremely few situations where a non-traitor scientist would be running around with a gun without being punished. How will traitors and revolutionaries be able to utilize weapons in a method that's fair and balanced? Having to overtly say "I need this thing that lets me shoot guns" just puts a big crosshair on them.

 

Am I the only person who is thinking of energy guns with a firing pin with similarities to Psycho Pass's Dominator Gun? At the same time, it would be neat although it disadvantages more people. Am I the only person who is thinking of energy guns with a firing pin with similarities to Psycho Pass's Dominator Gun? Anime reference aside, I want to say that [mention]Senpai Jackboot[/mention]'s statement pretty much ends this discussion, the only people supporting this suggestion are merely grasping at straws. I can say for sure by stalking credible people on discord, they have been disappointed at the trending security validhunting people.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Don't ever mention me in a post about anime ever again

[Skull132]

Re: administrate vs code.

We still use code to restrict and guide the player, make no mistake. And this could well serve this functionality without being overly restrictive. Ideally an implementation like this would set a small hurdle for people who want to fuck about with guns, thus guiding them to the path of not fucking about. But it wouldn't make it impossible. Basically: the requirement of a conscious choice of, "I want to mess with guns," vs "Woups I walked out with a gun and can now kill people."

Ideally:

• Pins would also be applied to other civilian firearms. Like mining guns.
• Traitor pins would be purchasable, and/or you could just emag a pin. It'd look the same, just not limit anything.
  
• You could also hack a pin, though this would carry potential side-effects. For that ghetto antag feel.

 

Also. From what I read of the Pr's code. This allows for more fun stuff than just touching science. DNA locking pins are a thing, as are implant specific pins.

[JKJudgeX]

Sounds like reason #14 to no longer play the research department to me.

[NoahKirchner]

I like skull's idea of being able to hack firing pins for revs and what-not.

[Scheveningen]

Sounds like reason #14 to no longer play the research department to me.

 

Sounds like you had 13 reasons to not play it, yet you would still play here even if this was added.

[JKJudgeX]

I was being facetious of course, but, 100% honesty, the amount of time I've spent in the research department diminished with the removal of genetics, spiked when it was added back, and diminished again when it was removed again recently. Even less features for non-roboticists without complication? It just doesn't seem like it's adding any appeal.

[Skull132]

I was being facetious of course, but, 100% honesty, the amount of time I've spent in the research department diminished with the removal of genetics, spiked when it was added back, and diminished again when it was removed again recently. Even less features for non-roboticists without complication? It just doesn't seem like it's adding any appeal.

 

Complications? You realize you get test-firing pins at your job and can just pop them in willy nilly, right? Ergo, unless you look at large scale weapon manufacturing, your job will be complicated by a whole 2 clicks it would take to pick up a pin and shove it into a gun.

[Saudus]

Re: administrate vs code.

We still use code to restrict and guide the player, make no mistake. And this could well serve this functionality without being overly restrictive. Ideally an implementation like this would set a small hurdle for people who want to fuck about with guns, thus guiding them to the path of not fucking about. But it wouldn't make it impossible. Basically: the requirement of a conscious choice of, "I want to mess with guns," vs "Woups I walked out with a gun and can now kill people."

Ideally:

• Pins would also be applied to other civilian firearms. Like mining guns.
• Traitor pins would be purchasable, and/or you could just emag a pin. It'd look the same, just not limit anything.
  
• You could also hack a pin, though this would carry potential side-effects. For that ghetto antag feel.

 

Also. From what I read of the Pr's code. This allows for more fun stuff than just touching science. DNA locking pins are a thing, as are implant specific pins.

 

This is the topic coup de grace. I would suggest adding pins to exo-suit weapons as well, but other than that it feels like a pure bulls-eye. As long as test pins are initially available without cargo (and preferably also printable with ca lvl 5 tech? Maybe pre-hacked pins could be printed with illegal tech levels?) and pins can be hacked and/or purchased, then it feels like there won't be a real downside to it.

[JKJudgeX]

I was being facetious of course, but, 100% honesty, the amount of time I've spent in the research department diminished with the removal of genetics, spiked when it was added back, and diminished again when it was removed again recently. Even less features for non-roboticists without complication? It just doesn't seem like it's adding any appeal.

 

Complications? You realize you get test-firing pins at your job and can just pop them in willy nilly, right? Ergo, unless you look at large scale weapon manufacturing, your job will be complicated by a whole 2 clicks it would take to pick up a pin and shove it into a gun.

 

When I'm talking about a job, I'm talking about it's viability and fun in totality. That includes when you are a traitor. This change makes being an antag R&D scientist or RD much less fun. Therefore, I will more likely opt to play other roles that are still more fun both for an antag and not, since playing as antag is to me, every bit as important and fun as playing a station role. Just being honest here. If a job generally sucks to have as an antagonist, or makes everything really unnecessarily complicated/super risky to get my gimmick going, I'm not going to play that role very often. This idea pushes R&D scientist onto that list. No, the idea to buy pins via uplink for telecrystals doesn't fix this. No, it still doesn't add anything enjoyable to the role. It also honestly doesn't solve anything that happens with much frequency on the station, either. The stated purpose of the change is to prevent non-antag R&D powergaming, which almost never happens, and certainly almost never happens using guns, which the R&D only gets built up to 1 out of 4 rounds anwyay.

How about focusing on changes that purely enhance a department/role/gamemode instead, or creating a new antagonist type or something?

[Scheveningen]

This change makes being an antag R&D scientist or RD much less fun.

 

You're basing the entire fun factor of a job on whether it's potent or effective enough as an antagonist. Hearing that from you is unsurprising to hear, but it'd be honestly nice to hear a viewpoint from another science regular whose priorities weren't solely focused around the antagonist experience.

You have countless ways to play the game as any job, especially as R&D whose job priorities and overall goals are extremely flexible. It is not the developer's job to make every single position "!fun!" or "easy" so that if you finally roll antagonist you can just waste the whole round doing nothing or just murdering ineffectively anyway. It's on the player themselves to overcome the downsides of their job in order to execute their plans as an antagonist. Assistants start with zero access, do you expect them to be given a free spare ID roundstart so that they can get the gear they want without putting in any effort or respecting consequence for their actions? The antagonist has the most actual freedom in what they want to do in the game, yet some players choose to waste time deliberating and seething over paranoid stuff that doesn't even matter. Just play and do things, that is all we ask antagonists to do.

This suggestion adds needed accountability and consequence for R&D should they choose to produce weapons, antag or no. Whether it affects antagonists or not is completely irrelevant as it is the job of an antagonist to overcome the difficulties of their job restrictions to put their plan into action. Every other server's antags has to deal with this, it often results in failed antag runs just because those consequences in combination with misplays and miscalculations of risk ends up in players dying in-game. "Better luck next round", is the general response.

/tg/ is a mix between low and medium RP, yet they get along just fine with firing pins. They are on the lower end of the RP spectrum and antags regularly deal with the issue of firing pins either through actually being a sociable person and asking for pins only to turn those guns on crewmembers later, or they're smart and buy the extremely cheap antag pins with 100% assurance that their gun will never be turned on them. Overcoming difficulty is a major defining feature as an antagonist. Adding certain stepping stones to jobs that have a "high risk high reward" to make them reasonably more difficult is not a flaw in design philosophy, multiple games do it in a way that is fun, it is even fun on /tg/. R&D should not be a gun foundry where weapons are easy to print off without consequence.

 

How about focusing on changes that purely enhance a department/role/gamemode instead, or creating a new antagonist type or something?

 

Unhelpful counterpoint, it's easy to be an /I D E A S guy/, not so easy to put those ideas in a coherent presentable manner so developers will be convinced to put those development ideas into practice.

[JKJudgeX]

This change makes being an antag R&D scientist or RD much less fun.

 

You're basing the entire fun factor of a job on whether it's potent or effective enough as an antagonist. Hearing that from you is unsurprising to hear, but it'd be honestly nice to hear a viewpoint from another science regular whose priorities weren't solely focused around the antagonist experience.

...snip...

 

You've heard from 3 or 4 people who have been actively playing the role, or who have hundreds of hours invested in playing the role tell you directly that this isn't a great idea.

My priorities aren't focused solely around the antagonist experience. I've run a clean R&D scientist and Research Director hundreds of times and used to greatly enjoy those roles. I clearly stated "When I'm talking about a job, I'm talking about it's viability and fun in totality. That includes when you are a traitor. " Key phrase->in totality. Funny how quickly that morphed into basing "the entire fun factor of a job on whether it's potent or effective enough as an antagonist".

In any event: "Hearing that from you is unsurprising" - you're trying to get personal and likely evoke a response, so, I will no longer be discussing this topic as a result. Good job. Classy.

I'm absolutely sure you'll be making a scientist character as soon as firing pins are implemented so you can go play with them for hours and hours.

Peace out.

[Scheveningen]

It's almost like playing scientist isn't all about the guns. What a travesty, the idea of having to acquire something to even fire a prototype gun.

[JKJudgeX]

It's almost like playing scientist isn't all about the guns. What a travesty, the idea of having to acquire something to even fire a prototype gun.

 

I called it a travesty. Hyperbole has this way of instantly improving the quality of every conversation that it's ever been used in, amirite?

[N8-Toe]

I think adding in firing pins, especially when they are not in the hands of the science department for their own work, is adding complication and hurdles where they are not needed. Making science have to ask for and justify supplies needed to do their job is red tape for red tapes sake. it would be like Medical having to ask security to unlock a locker with surgical supplies because they can be used to hurt people.

[MoondancerPony]

I think adding in firing pins, especially when they are not in the hands of the science department for their own work, is adding complication and hurdles where they are not needed. Making science have to ask for and justify supplies needed to do their job is red tape for red tapes sake. it would be like Medical having to ask security to unlock a locker with surgical supplies because they can be used to hurt people.

 

Science starts off with testing firing pins that can be fired in Research/a testing range only.

I feel like the execution of this suggestion thread was botched, honestly. I feel 'depth of gameplay' should have been the selling point and 'less validhunting' a sidenote, instead of the other way around. I like the arguments for depth of gameplay, including DNA-locked firing pins, code-restricted firing pins, and adding firing pins to departments other than Research. (Mining, anyone?) I don't like the personal attacks against people who disagree with the suggestion, as their concerns are quite understandable. I feel like this could be given a trial run on the server for the standard few weeks to a month and then we could decide whether or not to keep it.

[Pacmandevil]

I feel like the execution of this suggestion thread was botched, honestly. I feel 'depth of gameplay' should have been the selling point and 'less validhunting' a sidenote, instead of the other way around.

this is what happens when you tell an introvert to make a suggestion thread moon. reee