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[1 Dismissal] Hear People Talking when you're Inside your Corpse


Fortport

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When you die, you have to become a ghost to hear things that are around you...thus leaving your body. Despite this, you can still see what is in your immediate vicinity. How about letting us hear within range, and if we want to hear EVERYTHING and see EVERYTHING, go ghost?


Food for thought.

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I like this. This makes sense. I either have the choice of being in my body or ghosting and listening in anyway. At least if I'm in my body, they don't get the "soul has departed" fluff.

 

You shouldn't have to leave your body to just hear people talking right by your corpse. I mean, you could see them...so why not? I'll leave it to coders and the like to decide on whether or not you should hear EVERYTHING or just what's local, but the concept still stands. This gives ghosts more reasons to stay in their corpse instead of misleading onlookers that they're not present.

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  • 6 months later...
Guest Marlon Phoenix

How can you hear if you're dead? Seems like ghosting is a fair trade to hear everything around you and thus gain meta knowledge.

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This is a good quality-of-life suggestion. @Jackboot: But as a ghost, you can already use the follow verb to stay attached to your corpse, it's just extra annoying steps. This would save players the trouble. Dying is already a free ticket for meta-knowledge because ghosting from a corpse has no consequences (you can re-enter your body whenever you'd like, so the opportunity for meta is completely unrestricted already. And fortunately, I don't think people typically abuse this power), so this change would basically allow the dead to enjoy the privileges of ghosting without the pointless little bit of work involved.


A COUNTER-suggestion that really addresses the meta-advantage of ghosting would be to make it so that you can't re-enter your body if you ghost. This would mean that players who want a chance to stay in the round have to sacrifice the ability to see and hear the entire game, something we've been taking for granted. This would be my personal preference, but either it or Fortport's original suggestion would be better than the current system, on the grounds that they're more focused/purposeful. The current system allows dead players complete freedom, and Fortport's suggestion would streamline it, while my suggestion would force dead players to choose between staying in the round or observing it.

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A COUNTER-suggestion that really addresses the meta-advantage of ghosting would be to make it so that you can't re-enter your body if you ghost. This would mean that players who want a chance to stay in the round have to sacrifice the ability to see and hear the entire game, something we've been taking for granted. This would be my personal preference, but either it or Fortport's original suggestion would be better than the current system, on the grounds that they're more focused/purposeful. The current system allows dead players complete freedom, and Fortport's suggestion would streamline it, while my suggestion would force dead players to choose between staying in the round or observing it.

 

No.


I have not once seen a serious case of abusing metaknowledge from when a person was dead, and while it's potentially possible, this just feels like punishing peopled based on the potential for shittery instead of actually performing it. This is still a game, and it is incredibly boring and a huge waste of your time to have to sit alone in one place in a moldering corpse in the hopes you'll get to keep playing in the round when someone finds you.


It's like being given a HuT sentence and being left alone in solitary for the rest of the round, hoping someone will check on you. No one likes it. It's awful and shitty.


That being said, yeah. It's a little silly that you can still dsay in your body but can't hear the rest of the round until you leave it.

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A COUNTER-suggestion that really addresses the meta-advantage of ghosting would be to make it so that you can't re-enter your body if you ghost. This would mean that players who want a chance to stay in the round have to sacrifice the ability to see and hear the entire game, something we've been taking for granted. This would be my personal preference, but either it or Fortport's original suggestion would be better than the current system, on the grounds that they're more focused/purposeful. The current system allows dead players complete freedom, and Fortport's suggestion would streamline it, while my suggestion would force dead players to choose between staying in the round or observing it.

 

This is the worst suggestion ever and I'm genuinely curious to know if you think that metagaming based on knowledge learned as a ghost is really such an epidemic that it would warrant something like this. Anyone who has been playing SS13 for any decent amount of time can probably figure out what kind of round type it is from an OOC perspective fairly quickly, if not even have a general idea who the antagonist is specifically. Yet people are generally competent enough to show restraint with this knowledge that we rarely have people screeching about cults for the rest of the round when they see the janitor pocket a rune paper in maint. Borgs already have something similar to this to deal with if whoever disables them doesn't actually kill them completely, and it's shit.

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Gotta agree with Munks on this one. We already punish people for blatantly metagaming after death, so it doesn't happen (and when it does, they get banned. And players actually pick up on when they've broken the rules in this way, ahelp and then ignore whatever they've said for the purpose of the round. Followed by bitching/scolding/recommending in LOOC). So ghosts therefore have something to do while waiting to be ERT/Revived/Respawn. This just allows ghosts to see what's going on around their body, which they can already do well enough if they follow it, then promptly turn of ghostears and ghostsight to be able to only see what's around them. It's just extra steps, which I'll still gladly do (as I want to see what happens to me after I die, so I can see the neat roleplay that comes of it) if this is denied.

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I literally said in my post that metagaming as a result of ghost knowledge doesn't happen a lot, but go off I guess

... the opportunity for meta is completely unrestricted already. And fortunately, I don't think people typically abuse this power.

 

God forgive me for suggesting that there be some actual consequence to dying

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

A 4 minute cooldown to re enter your body would be a better way to keep the consequence of dying with the benefit of ghosting, slightly. You can't hear when unconscious either. Why can you see more DEAD than unconscious?

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I assume the general reasoning is that it's because there's nothing stopping you from ghosting any seeing everything anyway.


My concern about a cool-down to reenter after ghosting would be that, without the benefit of ghost-sight/ghost-hearing, there's no way to guess whether ghosting at a particular time would screw you over. Since the only reason to re-enter your body is to be available for cloning, it seems like a cool-down would just make ghosting a sort of awful lottery where you find out whether or not your body is being retrieved quickly or not - and it's really a coin flip, depending on lots of factors like crew availability, circumstances of your death, etc....


If your body is being grabbed fast, then you're punished for ghosting quickly. If it's left there for a while, then ghosting later would punish you. Imagine if you stay in your corpse for 15 minutes hoping to get cloned, then finally give in and ghost, and then they try to clone you at the T+18 minute mark. Even though you were dedicated and waited in your corpse, you're being punished for not ghosting sooner (because if you'd gone sooner, you could re-enter and be cloned).

tl;dr a cool-down is thematically appropriate but with the knowledge available to a dead person, it functionally just ends up as an annoying guessing game


A counter-suggestion to THAT would be to place a timer not on ghosting, but rather on being cloned. And I don't mean putting a cool-down timer on the machine, I mean setting a MINIMUM TIME which someone has to be dead for before they are able to be cloned. That enforces a penalty for death without interfering with the ghosting situation. And it could be hand-waved with any amount of jargon in-game ("The body exhibits residual electrical activity and is unable to be cloned until the nervous system is static. Wait a little longer.") As to what would be an appropriate time, I don't know.

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A 4 minute cooldown to re enter your body would be a better way to keep the consequence of dying with the benefit of ghosting, slightly. You can't hear when unconscious either. Why can you see more DEAD than unconscious?

 

Because you're not unconscious when you're dead. You are no longer part of the round, your spirit is no longer tied to your body. You have shuffled the mortal coil. You are now an ex-player.


Dead people are officially objects that have no active impact on the round beyond existing. Treating it the same as being unconscious or sedated and thus requiring you to stay in there and listen to nothing but so 'You can almost hear someone talking..." for perhaps a half hour or more on end is neither interactive nor fun. This is still a game at it's core, and a game is supposed to be fun, and you shouldn't be considering how to make non-player interactions with their body more 'realistic'.. Being dead is itself already a punishment, you don't need to be further punished for being dead by requiring you to stay in your corpse or be unclonable.

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We're just questioning how much of a punishment being dead actually is. Death is pretty easily reversible, so it's not necessarily true that the deceased "have no more impact on the round." The game should be fun, but frankly, I think dying should be markedly un-fun... then players might actually give it the gravity it deserves and act accordingly.


You say the dead are officially objects that are out of the round, therefore they should be able to enjoy the privilege of ghosting. By that logic, making it impossible to re-enter your corpse would be the PERFECT mechanic, since it makes it so that ghosting is ONLY available to the people who actually choose to be out of the round for good, as you say.

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It's cute to twist people's words around to mean what you want them to mean for a personal agenda, but no. "Death is cheap' is a core gameplay thematic of SS13. You're not likely to get a lot of ground trying to change that because you don't feel it's punishing enough. We've already added aspects to the game that make coming back from the dead frustrating and annoying, so if you really want to pursue this, attack it from the angle of cloning, not this.


There's also a lot of aspects that come into play that are required for you to even be cloned, such as having an intact body with a connected head, being found, having someone who knows how to treat whatever traumas your cloning might have caused, someone who knows how to clone. If you want death to feel more real, open your character editor and put in an entry about your character being a "Do Not Clone" candidate. Mission accomplished, you will not come back from the dead, and the rest of us do not need to be punished by your desire to have a more concrete punishment for death. Or you could just choose not to return to your body when you're put in the cloner.

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@ Kaed It was a direct quotation. If you're unhappy with what it says, be mad at yourself for saying it wrong, not at me for reading it right.


Your suggestion to become a DNC does not address the issue of death being cheap, because being DNC is entirely voluntary - therefore it does not enforce any penalty (since being subject to enforcement is necessarily involuntary, I.E. forced). If the only people who experience the drawback of death are the people who elect to experience that drawback, then that drawback is made insignificant.


As to your suggestion to "attack it from the angle of cloning," I'm not completely sure what you mean. Make it even more difficult to clone someone? I mean, that's one school of thought, sure... I don't know why you aggressively believe it to be the only applicable school of thought. But you seem to express distaste with the hassles and roadblocks involved in cloning already - so maybe those measures are the punishments that need to be avoided (E.G. on the grounds that they are more random and thus punish different deaths unequally, etc.)? I don't say that authoritatively, but it should be some compelling evidence that maybe I'm not the villain you're treating me like.

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@ Kaed It was a direct quotation. If you're unhappy with what it says, be mad at yourself for saying it wrong, not at me for reading it right.


Your suggestion to become a DNC does not address the issue of death being cheap, because being DNC is entirely voluntary - therefore it does not enforce any penalty (since being subject to enforcement is necessarily involuntary, I.E. forced). If the only people who experience the drawback of death are the people who elect to experience that drawback, then that drawback is made insignificant.


As to your suggestion to "attack it from the angle of cloning," I'm not completely sure what you mean. Make it even more difficult to clone someone? I mean, that's one school of thought, sure... I don't know why you aggressively believe it to be the only applicable school of thought. But you seem to express distaste with the hassles and roadblocks involved in cloning already - so maybe those measures are the punishments that need to be avoided (E.G. on the grounds that they are more random and thus punish different deaths unequally, etc.)? I don't say that authoritatively, but it should be some compelling evidence that maybe I'm not the villain you're treating me like.

 

This is probably a discussion that could go on for a while, but it is also off topic. This thread is about 'hearing things when you are in your corpse'. Please make a new thread if you want to discuss making death more impactful.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

A 4 minute cooldown to re enter your body would be a better way to keep the consequence of dying with the benefit of ghosting, slightly. You can't hear when unconscious either. Why can you see more DEAD than unconscious?

 

Because you're not unconscious when you're dead. You are no longer part of the round, your spirit is no longer tied to your body. You have shuffled the mortal coil. You are now an ex-player.


Dead people are officially objects that have no active impact on the round beyond existing. Treating it the same as being unconscious or sedated and thus requiring you to stay in there and listen to nothing but so 'You can almost hear someone talking..." for perhaps a half hour or more on end is neither interactive nor fun. This is still a game at it's core, and a game is supposed to be fun, and you shouldn't be considering how to make non-player interactions with their body more 'realistic'.. Being dead is itself already a punishment, you don't need to be further punished for being dead by requiring you to stay in your corpse or be unclonable.

 

Good points! You used my own philosophy against me. +1 to idea.

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There is no penalty for leaving your body, and you can ghost in and out as you please. If you are really concerned about accidentally metagaming, you can restrict your ghost-ears to local radius. If you are concerned about other people metagaming, that is why we have administrators. Furthermore, I am pretty sure this limitation is because dead people are technically unconscious or at the very least use the same mechanisms as an unconscious person, so faffing about with it introduces more trouble than its worth considering the above reasons (Although another dev is free to correct me in this regard.)


Voting for dismissal.

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