[1 Dismissal]Strip away AOOC away except for the rev game mode.

[Scheveningen]

You enter a game and you roll traitor during extend-a-traitor-mongoose. Great! What's the first thing that happens as soon as you get the antag text?

[AOOC] LardASS: gimmick????

You most likely already don't want to play this round. This dude only typed that just so he can figure out who is OOCly an antagonist and connect the dots from there, and it won't matter if you report this to an admin because as reasonable as it is to make this conclusion they will not see it as such or the person will make excuses.

 

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Individual antagonist types don't need "gimmicks". Antagonists have to make goals, their background is already set. If you're a traitor, you have syndicate affiliation one way or another, your background does not matter nor should it be the focus of your antagging. This is HRP Mafia, effectively. If you're a mob boss, you don't spend the round monologuing while your hitmen and consigliere get lynched by the town. You need to do shit in order to eliminate threats, achieve your goals and seek out your victories ICly. If you're a wizard, you're from the wizard federation, if you're a ling, you're a deep embedded predatory xeno-organism intending to eat people for gnomes.

Tangent aside, you fill the shoes, you don't get to make the shoes fit for you. As an individual antagonist you have individual goals all about yourself, and the rest of the station serves as an obstacle to be overcome for achieving those goals.

There is no reason to allow players to utilize an OOC format to effectively metagame information to benefit them and strip away a lot of suspense/intrigue that makes the game interesting. Gimmicks have a low frequency of actually working to the benefit of other players or the antag themselves, they do not establish purpose as well as simply setting personal goals do.

The only game type that is deserving of OOC organization to make a game mode work is the revolution gametype to help establish precedent as to why the loyalists should overtake the station and why the revolutionaries need to rebel against them. Cult doesn't need it because their goal is clear: Spread the cult brainwashing, and summon nar'sie as a finale act while making the round interesting. Cultists can already identify each other. Heist does not need it. Mercenaries do not need it. Vampires don't need it. Changelings don't need it. They already have ways of working together and LOOC to use if they need to discuss a plan. If any of them are new and need help using antag mechanics they need to use adminhelps instead, it's there for that purpose. AOOC is not that commonly used as a mentoring system, it's used for more ulterior reasons.

AOOC does not do anything that escalating purely in IC would not do for an individual antagonist. It is far more interesting when events occur naturally as a result of IC consequence instead of immediately identifying who's an antag OOCly just to work with them.

[kyres1]

I honestly agree with the vast majority of this. Not that I think searching for cooperative gimmicks is unhealthy to role play, but the problems stemming from AOOC go way beyond that. People use it to fabricate OOC relationships with other people's characters to further their advantage in the round. This has its merits - but it's almost never used for good, as the vast majority of antagonists nowadays can barely hold up without it. Further incentive to make antagonist a less greytidey role needs to be done right, and I think this is a good start.

[Bauser]

AOOC is inherently problematic because it can't abide by the classic separation of IC and OOC. By making an OOC channel that's only for antagonist use, anyone who uses it is necessarily communicating ingame information (namely, that they're antag) which shatters the immersion each player experiences precisely because they shouldn't know whatever they find out through it.

Even rev rounds don't need AOOC if the revolutionaries and loyalists actually do the HRP work of communicating their goals and motivations among their followers. I would be perfectly content if AOOC were terminated entirely.

[Kaed]

I don't agree with this idea. People asking for a gimmick in there does not destroy my desire to play the game, nor do I very often see people trying to ask who the other person's antag character is in situations where it's not appropriate to know. In times when people do do that, I have seen people smack them for IC in OOC, after which they stop.

This is a fairly valuable to organizing things, and without it the most we would generally have in rounds where the antags do not have a native communication format is a bunch of disparate antags with no cohesive unity. Traitors, for instance have had their codewords taken away so they no longer auto-generate them up on becoming a traitor. Instead people communicate the code words they want to use in AOOC and everything was fine once they do that IC. The difference between that and randomized words is fairly trivial, and actually may work better because it doesn't have strange things in it that people wouldn't normally say in a sentence, like the name of individuals who don't exist on the station round.

Now, I'll admit that sometimes the gimmicks that occur as a result of AOOC are incredibly stupid and I hate, but I'm effectively bullied by the other players in the following them due to a consensus and them feeling that it's a democracy. (Sometimes I do what I want anyway, and absorb the delicious salt it creates when I go against their dumb plan)

But that's not the fault of AOOC. I've seen very interesting things occur from it too, and had mixed rounds where I was able to create my own thematic for the round based on what I'm seeing in AOOC, such as choosing to be a cleric wizard and oppose the cultists during a conflux round.

In the end of the day, you shouldn't be considering your immersion to be the highest priority as an antag, because the chances are you're already breaking the canon by bringing in magical bullshit or using fake messages from Central Command that people are supposed to treat as real. What you should be focusing on is trying to make things as fun as possible for everyone. Sometimes even if it means taking a bullet for your own immersion in the game by knowing how things are going to turn out because you can see the plans.

As an antagonist, your job is to create an interesting experience for everyone. I see a lot of talk about it ruining the intrigue, but let's be honest here but let's be honest here: by the very act of being selected as an antagonist, you have already had the secret of the round spoiled for you. You now know the antag, type on the ground or at least one of them, as surely as if you had the check antags admin verb.

Is there really some added impact and greater value to the game if you make your plans after 10 to 30 minutes of waffling around trying to herd together did the disparate aspects of the rounds antag flavor, just so you can looc at each other in the same fashion and hope no one is nearby on the other side of a wall to hear you?

Because if you feel that way, it sounds like you're just being stubborn to me honestly. The average antag round has only two 2-3 hours in it, and I don't gain anything by spending a half-hour of that trying to get other people together so we can abide by some arbitrary standard that you want to set up of having our imaginary spaceman stand next to each other before we can communicate out of character to make some kind of consensus on how we want to play things.

I should also point out that there is not, and never has been as far as I know, any requirement that any antagonist conform to the loose antag lore that exists in the game. For instance, I don't think I've seen a single wizard since I came on this server use the term Wizard Federation. Telling people that they need to act like they're part of it because they are a wizard isn't what we're doing on this server. This same principle applies to any antag type, so trying to tell people not to do gimmicks and 'act like their antag type' is a bit of a joke. You can't compare this game to Mafia except in the loosest sense, because of Mafia / werewolf is a very simple game that takes maybe a half hour per round tops, and the role playing expectations in it are extremely limited.

[Pacmandevil]

Now, I'll admit that sometimes the gimmicks that occur as a result of AOOC are incredibly stupid and I hate, but I'm effectively bullied by the other players in the following them due to a consensus and them feeling that it's a democracy. (Sometimes I do what I want anyway, and absorb the delicious salt it creates when I go against their dumb plan)

Organizing gimmicks is the supposed purpose of AOOC, and organizing said gimmicks via OOC means is inherently metagaming, along with the fact that it brings up this unhealthy "play to the gimmick" mindset, because they never actually figure out what their character's goals are. just "we are gimmick x!" - which sucks. as the gimmicks are (Unga bung he don't play) When I played. uninspired and the same stuff. "WiZaRd HuNt CuLt?!" - that's being a protagonist. not an antagonist.

 

But that's not the fault of AOOC. I've seen very interesting things occur from it too, and had mixed rounds where I was able to create my own thematic for the round based on what I'm seeing in AOOC, such as choosing to be a cleric wizard and oppose the cultists during a conflux round.

So metagame. Regardless, it IS the fault of AOOC. as without it, and perhaps with a set list of optional objectives you can pick from. it'd encourage gimmicks as a mean to an end. instead of THE end. which in my opinion is much healthier, as hey. it gives people an actual drive. and more depth. instead of "let's be sec as mercs lol" "oh shit what do we do now"

 

In the end of the day, you shouldn't be considering your immersion to be the highest priority as an antag

 

You shouldn't be considering immersion to ever be a highest priority. it's 2d Spessmens.

 

As an antagonist, your job is to create an interesting experience for everyone. I see a lot of talk about it ruining the intrigue, but let's be honest here but let's be honest here: by the very act of being selected as an antagonist, you have already had the secret of the round spoiled for you. You now know the antag, type on the ground or at least one of them, as surely as if you had the check antags admin verb.

 

"You're in one of many antagonist types!!!" Yes. metagaming is possible.

 

Is there really some added impact and greater value to the game if you make your plans after 10 to 30 minutes of waffling around trying to herd together did the disparate aspects of the rounds antag flavor, just so you can looc at each other in the same fashion and hope no one is nearby on the other side of a wall to hear you?

You should be doing it in character. not out of it. that's ICKY LOOC. there's literally no reason why you can't plan something out IC. if you can't, then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Forcing otherwise is breaking character.

 

Because if you feel that way, it sounds like you're just being stubborn to me honestly. The average antag round has only two 2-3 hours in it, and I don't gain anything by spending a half-hour of that trying to get other people together so we can abide by some arbitrary standard that you want to set up of having our imaginary spaceman stand next to each other before we can communicate out of character to make some kind of consensus on how we want to play things.

2-3 hours is a fucking huge amount of time. and planning stuff out is a huge advantage in terms of how you want things to plan out. so yes. spend time to plan it out, so people can counterplay.

 

we can communicate out of character to make some kind of consensus on how we want to play things.

 

Jesus christ just do it ICly. use the provided mediums of communication asides from the meta-chat.

 

I should also point out that there is not, and never has been as far as I know, any requirement that any antagonist conform to the loose antag lore that exists in the game.

 

This is arguably a bad thing.

[Alberyk]

AOOC is inherently problematic because it can't abide by the classic separation of IC and OOC. By making an OOC channel that's only for antagonist use, anyone who uses it is necessarily communicating ingame information (namely, that they're antag) which shatters the immersion each player experiences precisely because they shouldn't know whatever they find out through it.

 

Rules about ic in ooc are still valid over aooc.

[Scheveningen]

Rules don't stop people from breaking them, and by the time someone metagames information the damage is already done and at worst the round is already ruined for someone.

[Bauser]

I know that IC-in-OOC rules are still in play over AOOC; I'm saying that using AOOC at all imparts a little bit of IC knowledge because of the names you see.

Even though it is ALSO true that I have seen some terribly grievous examples of IC-in-AOOC even in just the last few days.

[Arrow768]

Rules don't stop people from breaking them, and by the time someone metagames information the damage is already done and at worst the round is already ruined for someone.

 

That can be said about every other mechanic aswell:

Tampering with bombs,

Phoron Fires,

Sec Officers gunning down someone in accident.

Yet, we dont discuss the removal of these mechanics.

Yes, it might runin someones round.

I had this happen to me. I ahelped it. The player was punished and they wont do that again.

However I havnt been revived and they didnt get around to clone me for the rest of the round.

Tl;dr. We have mods and mins to deal with rule violations including metagaming over aooc.

A solution would be to show the ckey instead of the char name in aooc. (If the char name is shown atm)

That limits the metagame-potential quite drastically.

[Kaed]

Eh, I just don't see it as that much of a problem unless you're an incredible stickler. I'm almost certain antag OOC can be turned off like the others, and if not, I guess that could be something to add, but you're going to miss out on potentially crucial information if you stubbornly try to avoid the whole channel out of fear of icky oocky

Like Arrow said, If people abuse it, then ahelp it. Doesn't mean the whole system needs to be removed.

(also, [mention]Arrow768[/mention], it shows the ckey right now, you literally can't find out who they are IC unless they tell you)

[Arrow768]

Then I dont see a reason to change it.

The system is fine as is. Its monitored by staff for abuse. And abusers are handled by them.

The participation in aooc is voluntary.

You do not have to respond if you dont want to give away that you are an antag.

If only the ckey is shown, then you generally dont have the association of ckey to charname (Yes, there are some exceptions, but for most cases this is true.

Therefore voting for dismissal.

[Pacmandevil]

Eh, I just don't see it as that much of a problem unless you're an incredible stickler. I'm almost certain antag OOC can be turned off like the others, and if not, I guess that could be something to add, but you're going to miss out on potentially crucial information if you stubbornly try to avoid the whole channel out of fear of icky oocky

 

The channel in it's entirety is metagaming though, which is a whole other issue.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Is there an ability to mute it for yourself? I never found that option like for regular OOC. It would be nice if I could mute it since I never use it outside saying "Gimmick???" as soon as I roll antag for a gag.

[LordFowl]

Voting for dismissal. If you want to ignore people on AOOC then you can just...ignore them? The channel is already well moderated beyond that.