Replacing Revolution (With Gang)

[Snakebittenn]

Rev is an old mode, for a different setting. A setting where we didn't go home in two hours, a setting where there wasn't civilization literally right next to us. Where any potential rev would have no true point to it.

I propose we replace it with something similar, yet different.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Gang_War

Enter Gang Warfare.

Two groups of thugs aim to overtake the Aurora by using every inch of tile as turf to expand their influence. Their bosses are capable of purchasing various equipment using that influence in order to help them expand. To do this, they convert station crew to aid their cause.

(Preferably, ERT would be turned off for this mode.)

This mode could use a few tweaks to more suit HRP, but I think it would make more sense and be more involved. Atleast, it's worth a try.

[BurgerBB]

I wouldn't replace revolution, but just add gang as a separate gamemode.

[Bauser]

This makes even less sense in-character than a revolution. Everybody on the station knows as soon as their "gang" takes over the station, NT is going to call in the death squads. On Rev, the mutineers know this too - but they have the excuse that they're doing it for a moral reason rather than any concrete end-goal like just capturing the Aurora for the hell of it.

It would be complete chaos. On Revolution, the revs and the loyalists at least have the plausible deniability of working together, they know they collectively comprise the same station. If you tell the two groups that they're just warring gangs, it's going to be stupid all-out chaos. Half the doctors would be gunning down the other half, half the engineers could be sabotaging the other half, and what does security do? Does half respond to the crimes against their gang? Can they even be gang members?

Pitting antagonists against each other has the potential to be very meaningful story-wise and fun gameplay-wise, but this implementation is way too blunt and careless for it to work well.

[Azande]

NanoTrasen does not have 'death squads', thank you very much.

Howabout we just get rid of rev and don't implement gang, win win

[DronzTheWolf]

I personally think that this is a really good idea, let the Chaos happen. Revs are too hesitant to become violent, but gangs really nail home the point that you're supposed to do more than whine and moan in the holodeck and wait for Sec to pepperspray you.

[Bauser]

Revolutionaries are hesitant to become violent because this server is notorious for its chokehold on antagonistic actions. And I don't say that as a critique, but simply a fact: if the consequence of being too timid is a boring round and the consequence of being too bold is getting banned, people will choose to be too timid almost every time.

A reality of HRP is that it imposes restrictions on play that naturally don't coincide with the way every gamemode is meant to be played. It doesn't make sense for people to go from relatively docile employees to violent revolutionaries within a two-hour span. It doesn't make sense for this serious, lore-altering kind of uprising to spring forth in the time and conditions we have for it. And that means, in order for Revolution rounds to play out with the sort of chaos we expect (and often desire) from them, people necessarily need to do some things that are out of character.

So instead of replacing the Revolution mode with some wacky "hey guys, you're gangsters now! pull out the MAC10s and baseball bats hahaha" shit, why not just push revolutionaries in the direction of revolution with some OOC influence, like notes when someone attempts to convert them, or 'thoughts in their head' sort of messages, or something.

Gang war, as a concept for a game mode, is so utterly incompatible with HRP that I would be disgusted to see it here. With revolution, it doesn't take much suspension of disbelief. This isn't a problem that needs to be fixed with a huge upheaval, just some little nudges in the right direction.

[Scheveningen]

And I don't say that as a critique, but simply a fact:

 

Not a fact, actually, seeing as how antagonists doing things is treated laissez-faire by the server staff unless they do something below and beyond the most mediocre expectations of antagonists. In which it's dealt with by a case-by-case basis if it actually violates any rule or precedent.

 

A reality of HRP is that it imposes restrictions on play that naturally don't coincide with the way every gamemode is meant to be played.

 

Said 'restrictions' are hardly restrictive enough to be considered a problem. Having immediate justification for your actions is all the rules ask for.

 

It doesn't make sense for people to go from relatively docile employees to violent revolutionaries within a two-hour span. It doesn't make sense for this serious, lore-altering kind of uprising to spring forth in the time and conditions we have for it.

 

No, it does. Did you know that the Columbine shooting took place hardly up to 2 hours? The shooting began at 11:19am and ended shortly after 12 when the two shooters killed themselves in the school library. It's not unreasonable to suggest violence can escalate in such a period of time.

 

And that means, in order for Revolution rounds to play out with the sort of chaos we expect (and often desire) from them, people necessarily need to do some things that are out of character.

 

Uh, no. Everything you do in-game with supplementary justification is in-character. If you're worried about breaking character, that is actually your fault, not the fault of the game mode.

 

So instead of replacing the Revolution mode with some wacky "hey guys, you're gangsters now! pull out the MAC10s and baseball bats hahaha" shit, why not just push revolutionaries in the direction of revolution with some OOC influence, like notes when someone attempts to convert them, or 'thoughts in their head' sort of messages, or something.

 

You know, it's really not that unfathomable that a criminal network would attempt to seize the station, project territorial boundaries and intimidate people into their gang or press folks into their ranks to get shit done? Gang does this to a more interested degree that revolution does with all of the power dynamics involved. It's super easy to oversimplify a game mode concept you don't like.

We don't need to get rid of revolution. While it is generally ineffectual since it requires really verbose players who can intelligently convince people to join their cause (totally unlikely to get at least 1 who wants to take point for every rev round ever), there's not really room to delete an entire game mode from existence. Maybe one day you'll get a good round out of it or something, being persistent in attempting to enjoy the round might get you a good round out of the mode some day.

As for Gang, eh. While I like the game mode, I only enjoy playing it if I'm on /tg/ where the standards for roleplaying and conflict are much lower. It wouldn't really be worth trying something with the expectation that porting a game mode to a completely different server culture dynamic wouldn't cause any consistency issues. Neutral-negative, really, not willing to support this.

[Bauser]

No, it does. Did you know that the Columbine shooting took place hardly up to 2 hours? The shooting began at 11:19am and ended shortly after 12 when the two shooters killed themselves in the school library. It's not unreasonable to suggest violence can escalate in such a period of time.

It is the VIOLENCE which escalated quickly. The actual philosophy that inspired it (you know, like the little "revolution" detail in the game mode Revolution) had been cultivated over the course of their entire lives. The out-of-character part isn't enacting the violence; it's so quickly adopting the mindset that violence needs to be carried out.

 

Uh, no. Everything you do in-game with supplementary justification is in-character. If you're worried about breaking character, that is actually your fault, not the fault of the game mode.

That's just blatantly false. If your character is defined to behave in a certain way, and then you act in a way that is contrary to this, it is out-of-character. You can say you're just "redefining the character" or whatever you want, but the truth is that carrying out a revolution on an otherwise peaceful workday afternoon forces you to do some things that don't make sense for a sane person to do (and because having a sane person is a requirement of all characters, then it logically follows that uncharacteristic behavior is necessary).

 

You know, it's really not that unfathomable that a criminal network would attempt to seize the station, project territorial boundaries and intimidate people into their gang or press folks into their ranks to get shit done? Gang does this to a more interested degree that revolution does with all of the power dynamics involved. It's super easy to oversimplify a game mode concept you don't like.

Yeah, a criminal network that just happens to be comprise like half the entire payroll of a cutting-edge research space station? Or even a tenth. Are we actually going to have to discuss the nonsense relationship this idea has with the concept of HRP. And you know me; I am not the guy who needs everything to be realistic and immersive. But saying that most the crew of this base "was actually thugs the whole time!!! Secretly!!!!!! They only got their jobs as highly-accredited scientists and engineers so they could play the long game and infiltrate it!!!!!" is so fucking garbage. And nothing but garbage.

 

We don't need to get rid of revolution ... Neutral-negative, really, not willing to support this.

What astounds me most is that you would go to such lengths to try shitting on me when we agree on the subject matter. Like what is even the point? Trying to feel big?

[Scheveningen]

You're derailing the thread, dude. Stay on topic.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Doesn't gang have a lot of baggage with the servers that do have it? It's just as flawed as rev but has the advantage of being 'new' and untested here.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Also, it is not unrealistic to suddenly embark on violence during a rev round. There are two factors to consider. One is that this is a game and we condense our timeframe during rounds out of necessity because like.... Come on. The other is that violent uprisings happen quickly and with minor triggers all the time. A dispute in tax policy birthed the libertarian movement in like 20 minutes IRL.

[ReynTheLord]

I've played on servers with gang, CORRECTION, which USED to have gang, because they removed it due to how godawful it was. Let's just say, If you don't like rev, gang is INFINITELY worse. No real rp to it, no real interractions, And I think it's the only gamemode i've seen the antags actively hunt down and fucking take priority in hunting down the janitor without a traitor objective to do so. Jeez...

[BurgerBB]

Doesn't gang have a lot of baggage with the servers that do have it? It's just as flawed as rev but has the advantage of being 'new' and untested here.

 

Gang is usually hated in /tg/ because every round leads to a murderbone fest given the nature of it basically being nuke ops except the crew nukes the station. Gang isn't built for HRP, and if it were to ever be ported, I doubt it would work without some serious renovations. Then again, the same could be said for cult, but people properly roleplay cult.

I think it could work if you removed the dominator, replaced it with another condition like depositing ~50,000 credits in a gang bank account, and removed the forced convert to something less forced.

[Bauser]

You're derailing the thread, dude. Stay on topic.

You wish I would let you off that easy. If I make three paragraphs that are on-topic and three sentences that aren't, the net effect is probably fine - we can handle talking about multiple things at the same time. And I wouldn't bring it up if it weren't relevant. Since that Discord exchange happened within the hour following your response to my post...

 

 

... I'm pretty sure we can just skip the part of this conversation where you pretend it has nothing to do with your raging hard-on for me.

Anyway.

@Jackboot

The "this is just a game" justification isn't observed for any other roleplay concerns on Aurora, so why does it suddenly apply here? I mean, if we want to make an arbitrary exception, I don't see why we shouldn't, I just think there's a need to acknowledge that it is an exception. Because the reasoning being "we need things to go like this because it's a game" can be really problematic if it's applied to other situations, like general antag motivations. And although there is surely SOME precedent in history for ideological violence erupting like that, it doesn't explain how it emerges from the context of this ostensibly docile research setting. You're not wrong, as evidenced by the fact that Revolution generally works as a gamemode, but you can see how the justifications are stretched thin. My point is, like Reyn says, Gang mode stretches the RP even thinner. If Revolution is a problem, then trying to solve it with Gang is a move in the wrong direction.

[AmoryBlaine]

Why are mainly 25-50 year olds locked in gang warfare? Revolution is open ended in that you can do whatever with it. You can start up a union, you can organize into a gang, you can make it into a non-cult cult. There's plenty to do, and it isn't concrete. Gang war is just a bad idea and breaks with the setting of corporate work environment.

[Scheveningen]

You're derailing the thread, dude. Stay on topic.

You wish I would let you off that easy. If I make three paragraphs that are on-topic and three sentences that aren't, the net effect is probably fine - we can handle talking about multiple things at the same time. And I wouldn't bring it up if it weren't relevant. Since that Discord exchange happened within the hour following your response to my post...

 

 

... I'm pretty sure we can just skip the part of this conversation where you pretend it has nothing to do with your raging hard-on for me.

Anyway.

@Jackboot

The "this is just a game" justification isn't observed for any other roleplay concerns on Aurora, so why does it suddenly apply here? I mean, if we want to make an arbitrary exception, I don't see why we shouldn't, I just think there's a need to acknowledge that it is an exception. Because the reasoning being "we need things to go like this because it's a game" can be really problematic if it's applied to other situations, like general antag motivations. And although there is surely SOME precedent in history for ideological violence erupting like that, it doesn't explain how it emerges from the context of this ostensibly docile research setting. You're not wrong, as evidenced by the fact that Revolution generally works as a gamemode, but you can see how the justifications are stretched thin. My point is, like Reyn says, Gang mode stretches the RP even thinner. If Revolution is a problem, then trying to solve it with Gang is a move in the wrong direction.

 

 

.

You conveniently forgot this part, pal. Also cute that you brought this discussion from discord to the forums in some half-assed attempt to embarrass the both of us because you just can't let a conversation go. Again, derailing the conversation.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

This is like an episode of the Real Housewives.

[Sytic]

Generally taking minor clips out of a discord conversation and calling them any sort of evidence gets your post deleted and makes you look like an idiot. Please stay on track in the suggestion. Gang doesn't make any sense on the server and while the Revs will die if they win, at least the idea of Rev is that they have something to die for. A gang takes over the station, and then immediately dies to a response team. Why do they try to do something so stupid?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Generally taking minor clips out of a discord conversation and calling them any sort of evidence gets your post deleted and makes you look like an idiot. Please stay on track in the suggestion. Gang doesn't make any sense on the server and while the Revs will die if they win, at least the idea of Rev is that they have something to die for. A gang takes over the station, and then immediately dies to a response team. Why do they try to do something so stupid?

 

I agree with you. A revolutionary is a much more romantic avenue to roleplay than a gangster. We are not in a setting where the Bloods and the Crips would find many recruits, but Che Guevara would.

[Scheveningen]

I'm not sure if it was some staff or some players that were discussing it, but an idea was bounced around that ERT could be disabled for revolution to let everything boil over station-side.

But this is not really relevant in the grand scheme of gang especially since of the low chance this'll be accepted.

[Pacmandevil]

Alright, local shitcoder here to drop hot truths.

Gangs as a gamemode is 100% incompatible with aurora in every single fucking way like what. even by my standards this is a stupid idea, and I was the dumbass that added firing pins.

the literal only server gangs has ever worked, HRP, LRP, or otherwise, is Goon. which as always, is completely different than TG's coat-hanger abomination of an implementation.

And that's also MAJORLY dependent on the theme and general community of the server, which on goon. is actually having fun.

And revs as a gamemode is shit, yes - there's no goal or objective a bunch of the time, and there's blatant valid hunting by security - which I doubt has changed much from when I actually played.

But there's ways of fixing everything. if the theme behind a gamemode is shit. and doesn't fit into the lore at all (which it doesn't in this case) perhaps it'd be a decent idea to revisit the idea of mind control, or perhaps a fully syndicate funded situation. Instead of just going "hey we're taping on the synidcate affiliation because someone wanted to "fix" the game-mode by taping on a "no u" announcement system."