[2 Dismissals - Bin Sun/29/2018]]Remove the detective's revolver's lethals

[LanceLynxx]

if you mean the bullets can penetrate the hull than it's not really true. You need to purposfully shoot out an entiremagazine into one section of wall in order to break it.

 

I'm not talking mechanics, I'm talking logic. it's extremely bad idea to use ballistic weapons in pressurized environments.

 

two words: corporate espionage

 

A detective is not a counter-spy agent. He is an investigator.

 

They investigate actual crime while IAA investigate [whatever they investigate]. They need a reliable mean to defend themselves that would cover for most situations (in the same way that officers' belt full of stuff covers for almost every situation), but they don't have a belt full of stuff so they need a universal tool. Which is a lethal gun

 

Again.

Detective is NOT a combat role. Using a combat role / officer as a comparison for "job tool requirement" is bollocks.

If he needs to defend himself, that's all it is, defense. Therefore, lethal weapons shouldn't even be considered, rather, a stun baton, flash, or pepper spray should. Or in this case, rubber bullets.

If anything, lethal bullets are WORSE for a detective. Since antags know they are lethal, they won't think about non-lethal ways to take him down, since it would be a liability if they got injured. It would either kill or not kill, no in between.

[MO_oNyMan]

if you mean the bullets can penetrate the hull than it's not really true. You need to purposfully shoot out an entiremagazine into one section of wall in order to break it.

 

I'm not talking mechanics, I'm talking logic. it's extremely bad idea to use ballistic weapons in pressurized environments.

Logic dictates to have walls that can withstand considerable punishment if you're on a space station where firearms can be used.

 

two words: corporate espionage

 

A detective is not a counter-spy agent. He is an investigator.

Corporate detective is very much a counter-spy agent. Detectives on aurora are working in a corporate setting not on the streets.

 

They investigate actual crime while IAA investigate [whatever they investigate]. They need a reliable mean to defend themselves that would cover for most situations (in the same way that officers' belt full of stuff covers for almost every situation), but they don't have a belt full of stuff so they need a universal tool. Which is a lethal gun

 

Again.

Detective is NOT a combat role. Using a combat role / officer as a comparison for "job tool requirement" is bollocks.

If he needs to defend himself, that's all it is, defense. Therefore, lethal weapons shouldn't even be considered, rather, a stun baton, flash, or pepper spray should. Or in this case, rubber bullets.

none of the above can realiably defend him from standard encounters such as IPC or Vaurca. Handing him a gun for self-protection on a station where this exact gun will do nothing against certain targets is an absurd decision that presents a huge security risk.

 

If anything, lethal bullets are WORSE for a detective. Since antags know they are lethal, they won't think about non-lethal ways to take him down, since it would be a liability if they got injured. It would either kill or not kill, no in between.

That's meta knowledge and can't be used to influence NT officials decision making. Reasoning behind killing or not killing someone is not based on whether they have or don't have a lethal weapon. Besides if we were to take OOC point of view on this specific situation then i don't see how non-lethal takedown would be excluded since you can just take detective's gun while he's down. Not a very good example.

[MO_oNyMan]

I have no idea how you can consider IPC and Vaurca existing on board proper justification for a detective to carry lethal ballistics. As it's not even the most effective way to disable them. Both are brute resistant, one is completely immune to pain and shrapnel has way less effect on them. If you're in a scenario where you're ''incapable of running away'' which are very very rare scenarios, unless you intentionally get yourself in shitty positions, you are usually going to be in close quarters. Where a vaurca is more than happy to disarm you of your gun and blow your brains out with it or simply bite you to death. Lasers are way more effective against taking both out, even more effective is stungear, once again suggesting you rely on your officers more.

Also a flash is unreliable? As someone who plays officer almost exclusively it's one of the most reliable tools in an officer arsenal, as a lot of people simply neglect to carry eye protection. Infact it's pretty much the first item you think of using when you're going through the thought process of ''okay, how do I down this guy the quickest.''

If we're going into a little indepth combat mechanics, you basically want to start with tools that can't be used against you if you get disarmed of it. A revolver very much can be used against you if you pull it out and lose it. And if you're in a situation where your opponent is not close enough to disarm it from you, you are in a position to run away. Were you to have rubbers this would be less of a risk, as the detective is armoured, and thus rubbers have less of an effect on him than his hopefully unarmoured opponent, which they should be, because if they are armoured, why are you talking to them alone?

We are also not suggesting to ''deprive him of his means of self defense'' as you are stating. We are depriving him of his ammunition to put people in the ground, and instead giving him a proper self defense ammo which is rubbers.

 

As a person very familiar with the flash and its uses i can say that it fails a bit too much to be a reliable self-defense tool. I would not like to gamble on whether a suspect decides to look cool today when my life is on the line. Close quarters where you literally can't get away are about 4x4 and smaller areas. Any bigger and you can effectively break the distance (and most rooms on station are bigger than that). So you can get stuck in a room and still use ranged weapons effectively.

You can't always rely on officers as there is a very limited amount of them for a rather big station.

You can start with a flash, be my guest but sometimes you can't. Again, it's unreliable. And when flash is not effective, use a gun. I'm not suggesting to ban detective's from using a flash.

Yes, lasers are more effective against IPC and Vaurca while not having evil shrapnel. So give the detective a better lethal laser gun, i'm not opposed to that. But handing them rubbers is a mistake as it's not an effective self-defense tool by itself.

P.S. I'm currently looking at the e-pistol code. Resprite with higher capacity should be more than sufficient

[AmoryBlaine]

Firearms in close quarters are shit. This is how you die. Pull a gun, and they begin to spam disarm. I have, on a few occassions, killed opponents because they also carried a firearm, while I was able to move one tile to the side of where they were shooting while still being able to disarm them, knock them to the floor and beat their shit in. Even more so, if you want to REALLY win against anyone with a ballisitic firearm in close quarters, just wait until they reload. Charge them and disarm. Then beat them, choke them, ect. Firearms as a defense in close quarters is a joke unless it's a one hit kill weapon or a Hardsuit laser carbine/canon.

Any situation where your enemy is flash resistant, you should not be trying to apply lethal rounds of ammunition on them. You should not be trying to engage them in the first place. All drawing a firearm does is-

A. Disable one of your hands from being able to hit, disarm your opponent.

B. Allow your opponent access to a firearm. So once you're on your ass, they pick it up and unload into your face.

[MO_oNyMan]

Firearms in close quarters are shit. This is how you die. Pull a gun, and they begin to spam disarm. I have, on a few occassions, killed opponents because they also carried a firearm, while I was able to move one tile to the side of where they were shooting while still being able to disarm them, knock them to the floor and beat their shit in. Even more so, if you want to REALLY win against anyone with a ballisitic firearm in close quarters, just wait until they reload. Charge them and disarm. Then beat them, choke them, ect. Firearms as a defense in close quarters is a joke unless it's a one hit kill weapon or a Hardsuit laser carbine/canon.

Any situation where your enemy is flash resistant, you should not be trying to apply lethal rounds of ammunition on them. You should not be trying to engage them in the first place. All drawing a firearm does is-

A. Disable one of your hands from being able to hit, disarm your opponent.

B. Allow your opponent access to a firearm. So once you're on your ass, they pick it up and unload into your face.

 

All of the above only works if the firearm holder has no clue about what he's doing

[Worthy]

Stunbatons work on both vaurca and IPCs. Flashes work on both vaurca and IPCS. Pepperspray works on Vaurca. I'm not sure what you mean by ''none of the above can realiably defend him from standard encounters such as IPC or Vaurca'' when it's clearly wrong. A flash is not unreliable when it literally disables anyone not wearing eye protection which is the greater portion of the crew.

[AmoryBlaine]

All of the above only works if the firearm holder has no clue about what he's doing

 

Wrong. This happens as long as the attack has two hands and a will to live. Your .38 has no advantage in any close quarter scenario unless you land all six hits with high rng damage.

[MO_oNyMan]

Stunbatons work on both vaurca and IPCs. Flashes work on both vaurca and IPCS. Pepperspray works on Vaurca. I'm not sure what you mean by ''none of the above can realiably defend him from standard encounters such as IPC or Vaurca'' when it's clearly wrong. A flash is not unreliable when it literally disables anyone not wearing eye protection which is the greater portion of the crew.

When a weapon effect is entirely negated by a pair of sunglasses or a piece of cloth it is unreliable. And detective doesn't have a stunbaton.

 

All of the above only works if the firearm holder has no clue about what he's doing

 

Wrong. This happens as long as the attack has two hands and a will to live. Your .38 has no advantage in any close quarter scenario unless you land all six hits with high rng damage.

This happens as long as you stand still and not do anything about an attacker closing in. Don't stand still and wait to get robusted. Use your legs, use your arms, lit him up. Keeping your distance isn't hard

[Worthy]

Stunbatons work on both vaurca and IPCs. Flashes work on both vaurca and IPCS. Pepperspray works on Vaurca. I'm not sure what you mean by ''none of the above can realiably defend him from standard encounters such as IPC or Vaurca'' when it's clearly wrong. A flash is not unreliable when it literally disables anyone not wearing eye protection which is the greater portion of the crew.

When a weapon effect is entirely negated by a pair of sunglasses or a piece of cloth it is unreliable. And detective doesn't have a stunbaton.

 

All of the above only works if the firearm holder has no clue about what he's doing

 

Wrong. This happens as long as the attack has two hands and a will to live. Your .38 has no advantage in any close quarter scenario unless you land all six hits with high rng damage.

This happens as long as you stand still and not do anything about an attacker closing in. Don't stand still and wait to get robusted. Use your legs, use your arms, lit him up. Keeping your distance isn't hard

 

Except the greater portion of the crew does not carry eye protection. As I've encountered by near solely playing security officer.

Again, if you can use your legs, why can't you run away and call for backup? Why do you need to full lethal your opponent in this scenario?

[sonicgotnuked]

Simple, push him over if in close range then try to use the cuffs you spawn with. Or in other terms, don't be running around getting trapped into small rooms with other antags.

[MO_oNyMan]

Stunbatons work on both vaurca and IPCs. Flashes work on both vaurca and IPCS. Pepperspray works on Vaurca. I'm not sure what you mean by ''none of the above can realiably defend him from standard encounters such as IPC or Vaurca'' when it's clearly wrong. A flash is not unreliable when it literally disables anyone not wearing eye protection which is the greater portion of the crew.

When a weapon effect is entirely negated by a pair of sunglasses or a piece of cloth it is unreliable. And detective doesn't have a stunbaton.

 

Wrong. This happens as long as the attack has two hands and a will to live. Your .38 has no advantage in any close quarter scenario unless you land all six hits with high rng damage.

This happens as long as you stand still and not do anything about an attacker closing in. Don't stand still and wait to get robusted. Use your legs, use your arms, lit him up. Keeping your distance isn't hard

 

Except the greater portion of the crew does not carry eye protection. As I've encountered by near solely playing security officer.

Again, if you can use your legs, why can't you run away and call for backup? Why do you need to full lethal your opponent in this scenario?

 

Eye protection is not considered contraband is fairly common for some jobs on-station and can be easily found lying around in maint

Your ability to maneuver doesn't give you the power to bypass access locked doors or walls. Lethal weapons or very specific technology is required to be able to protect yourself from certain species that crew consists of in such scenarios

[Worthy]

''For some jobs'' Yes, still not the greater portion of the crew.

Why are you in close quarters with access locked doors and walls again?

[MO_oNyMan]

''For some jobs'' Yes, still not the greater portion of the crew.

It doesn't have to be most of the crew wearing eye protection in order to worry about people casually wearing it. The deciding factor here is that it's easily obtainable and fairly common

 

Why are you in close quarters with access locked doors and walls again?

Interview

[Zundy]

Give detective a custom laser gun with stun and kill imo.

[Worthy]

Why aren't you interviewing them in the brig? If you're just taking statements on a scene then officers should be nearby regardless.

[sonicgotnuked]

Interview

 

Why are they even getting out of their cuffs and why don't you just run out the door?

[MO_oNyMan]

Interview

 

Why are they even getting out of their cuffs and why don't you just run out the door?

 

Why aren't you interviewing them in the brig? If you're just taking statements on a scene then officers should be nearby regardless.

 

Sometimes you have to talk to people that aren't witnesses at the scene. And hauling them to the brig and sitting down in a dark 3x3 room just to ask some informal questions regarding the case is somewhat excessive of a practice and not really inviting for a smooth talk. Cuffing them is even worse, I would consider it borderline illegal detention if you were to do it to a casual witness or consultant

[Worthy]

Interview

 

Why are they even getting out of their cuffs and why don't you just run out the door?

 

Why aren't you interviewing them in the brig? If you're just taking statements on a scene then officers should be nearby regardless.

 

Sometimes you have to talk to people that aren't witnesses at the scene. And hauling them to the brig and sitting down in a dark 3x3 room just to ask some informal questions regarding the case is somewhat excessive of a practice and not really inviting for a smooth talk. Cuffing them is even worse, I would consider it borderline illegal detention if you were to do it to a casual witness or consultant

 

Why are we expecting having to use full lethal ammunition against a casual witness or consultant again? And why won't rubbers work in this scenario for the majority of cases?

[MO_oNyMan]

Why are they even getting out of their cuffs and why don't you just run out the door?

 

Why aren't you interviewing them in the brig? If you're just taking statements on a scene then officers should be nearby regardless.

 

Sometimes you have to talk to people that aren't witnesses at the scene. And hauling them to the brig and sitting down in a dark 3x3 room just to ask some informal questions regarding the case is somewhat excessive of a practice and not really inviting for a smooth talk. Cuffing them is even worse, I would consider it borderline illegal detention if you were to do it to a casual witness or consultant

 

Why are we expecting having to use full lethal ammunition against a casual witness or consultant again? And why won't rubbers work in this scenario for the majority of cases?

Because casual witness or consultant may be involved with the case or even be the criminal himself with you being unaware of it. While you don't have any reason to suspect him of anything and thus you don't bring a fully armed squad of officers to drag him to interrogation, he can get spooked or decide to get rid of the detective to derail the case. That's when you're going to need self-defense tools. And if he's an IPC or vaurca who just so happened to have sunglasses or a welder mask (which are neither contraband nor even slightly suspicious) you will get murdered without a tool to deal with them. The tool being a lethal weapon. Preferably a laser one since as pointed out, lasers are more efficient against both of these species

[sonicgotnuked]

Then call for help? You are still in security, push them over, and run out the door.

You seem to be what iffing every single possible situation without realising that IPCs can tank bullets anyway.

[Scheveningen]

70 posts. Wew. This sure is a contentious topic.

[MO_oNyMan]

Then call for help? You are still in security, push them over, and run out the door.

You seem to be what iffing every single possible situation without realising that IPCs can tank bullets anyway.

 

Presuming you're in interrogation which i already stated is not always the case and that dragging every single one of your interviewees to the interrogation is bad practice. Dropping the fact that i already said that i would support swap for laser lethals, despite IPCs being resistant to brute damage i would still take a lethal speedloader over a rubber one every time if i'm going to be attacked by a murderous IPC. You don't need to be iffing every possible situation to realise that if an IPC with eye protection turns violent on you you have absolutely nothing to protect yourself if you're packing rubber bullets. I don't think IPCs are specifically resistant to criminal behaviour either.

[Kaed]

70 posts. Wew. This sure is a contentious topic.

 

It's not really that contentious, it's mostly the same person digging their heels in and being really stubborn about what they want while everyone else goes ???

 

Presuming you're in interrogation which i already stated is not always the case and that dragging every single one of your interviewees to the interrogation is bad practice. Dropping the fact that i already said that i would support swap for laser lethals, despite IPCs being resistant to brute damage i would still take a lethal speedloader over a rubber one every time if i'm going to be attacked by a murderous IPC. You don't need to be iffing every possible situation to realise that if an IPC with eye protection turns violent on you you have absolutely nothing to protect yourself if you're packing rubber bullets. I don't think IPCs are specifically resistant to criminal behaviour either.

 

Your primary argument is based around rubbers not being universally useful is kind of moot, because your equipment is not based on 'what you would prefer', it's based on 'what your job duties entail'. I'm sure most people who are eager to win would prefer to have a lethal weapon at round start, but that's not how things work here, friendo.

Everything you've been saying here is indirectly pushing a specific notion on everyone, and this is basically what it is: Detectives are special, they need to be extra protected because they are in more danger than anyone else in their department, and get special snowflake equipment because of it.

No, they don't. I'd rate regular officers and CSI as the highest priority targets, because officers are the ones that actually take you down, and CSI have forensics access. What do detectives do, exactly..? They question people? I know you don't do forensics, and you sure don't perform arrests, Your role is entirely support and roleplay based, like the psychiatrist used to be before trauma nonsense.

I can't imagine any reason why you would be an especially vital target, except... I don't know... maybe because you start with a lethal weapon that they want to steal and/or make sure you can't shoot them with it? You complain that flashes are unreliable because sunglasses block them. Yep, that's true. Welcome to the game, we have checks and balances. You don't get a lethal weapon because WHAT IF THEY HAVE SUNGLASSES???? The chances are they do not, 90% of the time, because they aren't common access items. "Sometimes spawns in maint' is not 'freely available'.

Sometimes, if you get yourself caught in a corner, you just lost. That's it, you let yourself be trapped by an antagonist, and now you can't run away, and you have to deal with the consequences. That's the nature of the game, plan ahead, instead of demanding a safety net. You don't get to have a lethal revolver JUST IN CASE none of the normal methods of avoiding death that aren't 'murder the threat' don't work.

That being said, I don't see a compelling reason why Detectives can't have a laser pistol.

Just, a laser pistol, Like the heads get. Not some kind of special snowflake detective laser pistol that is better than any of the others. Again, stop trying to demand extra favors because detectives are special. They're not.

[MO_oNyMan]

70 posts. Wew. This sure is a contentious topic.

 

It's not really that contentious, it's mostly the same person digging their heels in and being really stubborn about what they want while everyone else goes ???

 

Presuming you're in interrogation which i already stated is not always the case and that dragging every single one of your interviewees to the interrogation is bad practice. Dropping the fact that i already said that i would support swap for laser lethals, despite IPCs being resistant to brute damage i would still take a lethal speedloader over a rubber one every time if i'm going to be attacked by a murderous IPC. You don't need to be iffing every possible situation to realise that if an IPC with eye protection turns violent on you you have absolutely nothing to protect yourself if you're packing rubber bullets. I don't think IPCs are specifically resistant to criminal behaviour either.

 

Your primary argument is based around rubbers not being universally useful is kind of moot, because your equipment is not based on 'what you would prefer', it's based on 'what your job duties entail'. I'm sure most people who are eager to win would prefer to have a lethal weapon at round start, but that's not how things work here, friendo.

Everything you've been saying here is indirectly pushing a specific notion on everyone, and this is basically what it is: Detectives are special, they need to be extra protected because they are in more danger than anyone else in their department, and get special snowflake equipment because of it.

No, they don't. I'd rate regular officers and CSI as the highest priority targets, because officers are the ones that actually take you down, and CSI have forensics access. What do detectives do, exactly..? They question people? I know you don't do forensics, and you sure don't perform arrests, Your role is entirely support and roleplay based, like the psychiatrist used to be before trauma nonsense.

I can't imagine any reason why you would be an especially vital target, except... I don't know... maybe because you start with a lethal weapon that they want to steal and/or make sure you can't shoot them with it? You complain that flashes are unreliable because sunglasses block them. Yep, that's true. Welcome to the game, we have checks and balances. You don't get a lethal weapon because WHAT IF THEY HAVE SUNGLASSES???? The chances are they do not, 90% of the time, because they aren't common access items. "Sometimes spawns in maint' is not 'freely available'.

Sometimes, if you get yourself caught in a corner, you just lost. That's it, you let yourself be trapped by an antagonist, and now you can't run away, and you have to deal with the consequences. That's the nature of the game, plan ahead, instead of demanding a safety net. You don't get to have a lethal revolver JUST IN CASE none of the normal methods of avoiding death that aren't 'murder the threat' don't work.

That being said, I don't see a compelling reason why Detectives can't have a laser pistol.

Just, a laser pistol, Like the heads get. Not some kind of special snowflake detective laser pistol that is better than any of the others. Again, stop trying to demand extra favors because detectives are special. They're not.

 

I'm sorry for the effort it must have taken but the entire post is irrelevant. Detective's job is to directly interact with potential criminals yes? Yes. He needs a mean to protect himself in case they turn violent yes? Yes. Some of those people are impervious to rubber bullets yes? Yes. Sunglasses render the only other tool available completely useless, yes? Yes. Sunglasses are easily acquired and other common means of eye protection exist yes? Yes.

Standard e-gun is horrible and will not protect you so it falls into the same pit as rubber bullets. Being a tool of self-protection that doesn't really protect anyone.

You have taken the right direction with arguing the OOC side of this issue as from an IC standpoint lethals are undeniably required. However you completely missed the point with trying to spoof powergaming accusations. Nice effort though. If you want to succeed i would suggest arguing for antags being crippled by security having lethals. Cheers

P.S. Try to avoid misrepresenting facts in a written discussion in the future. It makes you look bad

[Robinkhaliq]

I'm fully for removing detective's lethals. Though I say replace the revolver as a whole with a stunbaton (which detectives should absolutely have IMO). No gun really needed for a job that's meant to be pretty much entirely investigative. If, as detective, you're going to get into a conflict too big for your stunbaton, call security. Although I'm sure not many will agree with this idea, so I'd support rubbers - I just do think the detective needs to lose the lethals (which outclass officers' and HoS' default code green weapons btw.)