Noir is great and all, but..

but it really is an overused trope. There's a lot of talk about bad detectives and how they act like loose cannons and how it makes a sub-optimal impact on the gameplay and how it doesn't make sense etc. etc.

Trenchcoat + fedora wearing, constantly smoking, revolver naming, bitter detectives is a gimmick perhaps as old as ss13 itself. When it comes to HRP and believable characters i think it's important to encourage some freeform instead of pushing people into a gimmick (see: the wizard)

And the truth is that the noir gimmick is basically forced on the detectives. They get a zippo lighter and a flask as standard issue gear, an armored trenchcoat and a fedora. Now I don't say noir gimmick is inherently bad. If you want to play a depressed detective you can. I'm just saying it's not a very healthy practive to give new detective players zippo, flask, fedora and a trenchcoat and then expect them play anything else but. I have actually seen detectives that are asked to not drink on the job respond with "if NT didn't want me to drink they wouldn't give me a flask" and it's a pretty logical statement.

So the suggestion is to abolish the noir-esque items from the standard detective loadout.

- Remove the flask from the detective's locker

- Remove the zippo lighter from automatically spawning in the detective's pocket at roundstart

- Ideally remove the trenchcoats and fedoras from the locker

it's literally deleting 4 lines of code, nothing too complicated

Now if you still want to play a noir detective, go to your loadout, pick a zippo lighter, a cigarette packet, a trenchcoat and fedora and a flask. It remains there and is an option. But when it comes to players choosing how their detective will behave i think they need creative freedom without noir items looming over their head.

Sounds fine to me to be honest. I'd like detective and CSI to be merged into a different more relevant role but that's a suggestion for another thread.

Instead of ham handed, barbaric removal, just put a different set of gear in another locker for a more modern aesthetic.

Alternatively, create a more modern gear set for defaults and put the awful noir meme into the locker as an optional thing, since removing old memes from this game is like pulling teeth sometimes.

(though I totally support removing them)

Then again, if they're in the loadout already... what's the problem with removing them?

The coat is armored, the ones in the loadout are not.

Then put the armored one in the locker, problem solved.

You are not forced into Noir. There are a variety of suits in the locker. You can put the lighter in there too. Customize your load out. I dont wear the trench coat or fedora, as a detective main.

You are not forced into Noir. There are a variety of suits in the locker. You can put the lighter in there too. Customize your load out. I dont wear the trench coat or fedora, as a detective main.

It's not about whether you can or can not use the standard loadout you get. It's about why is it there in the first place. Why on earth would a corporate detective need a standard issue zippo and a flask? You don't see other jobs being pushed into a gimmick. Doctors don't spawn with a cane, a casual jacket with increased disease protection values and a complementary prescription bottle of tramadol pills.

As for replacement for coats i'm currently trying to get someone to sprite a new jacket. Whether it should armored or not is up to debate (i'd rather say no than yes. Detectives already have a vest if they want extra protection. Unless it's a proper uniform jacket). The fedoras should be removed either way (or added to the general loadout options)

-1

OR... You can just... You know, not wear it and leave it in the locker. Like what [mention]Senpai Jackboot[/mention] said, you are not forced into Noir, you have other options to take other than being Noir. I like for these clothing to stay as it helps the new detectives to enter and try on clothes and find their inspiration of what they envision their detective to be other than just Noir. A good example of being a detective would be Leo Wyatt, at first he thought about considering pulling off a Noir gimmick. He gave a good attempt and slowly broke off and made his own new gimmick by using Noir gimmick to find a whole new inspiration. These clothing and misc. items are not for fashion and to be used as loose cannons, they are used as a starting vertex to see where the player can drive their character into an interesting character. If the player decides they want to be full Noir and that's fine, that's the choice they are willingly to make. Of course, each choices we make have consequences/butterfly effect (ex. Until Dawn).

There's a lot of talk about bad detectives and how they act like loose cannons and how it makes a sub-optimal impact on the gameplay and how it doesn't make sense etc. etc.

Hearsay is not a credible source.

I'm just saying it's not a very healthy practive to give new detective players zippo, flask, fedora and a trenchcoat and then expect them play anything else but.

Assuming you meant practice. If so, I'll say that it is a healthy practice for the reasons stated above. You make it sound like the detectives are being forced to play a role but they are not. Please do not try to twist words and make it your way, it is not a very healthy practive.

it's literally deleting 4 lines of code, nothing too complicated

Are you a coder? Do you have experience in coding?

Now if you still want to play a noir detective, go to your loadout, pick a zippo lighter, a cigarette packet, a trenchcoat and fedora and a flask. It remains there and is an option. But when it comes to players choosing how their detective will behave i think they need creative freedom without noir items looming over their head.

It still is a choice regardless, no one is being forced to play a Noir detective.

I'll say what I think of your OP now, throughout your suggestion. I still see you insisting on that Noir items in lockers restricts people's imagination of wanting to become different than just Noir. I do not see people saying that being a detective limits your imagination, I do not see people becoming one and only detective Noir although I do see people becoming detectives that are not just about Noir. I can say this for a fact that people knows me for making many unimaginable gimmicks as both antagonists and non-antagonists. I've even become a detective based on my inspiration from Persona 4 (Tohru Adachi and Ryutaro Dojima) and Ace Attorney (Gregory Edgeworth and Dick Gumshoe) by being able to use some of these equipments to further my gimmick and imagination with other people.

What's my point? My point is, people especially myself have already made enough interesting ways to roleplay their detective. If they're still unable to think of interesting ways to roleplay, they should consider watching some shows, playing games, watching other detectives behave in SS13, or come talk to the community. Unable to do any of those? Come with me and you'll be in a world of pure imagination. You need to simply take a look and you'll see into your imagination.

Yes, it is as simple as deleting 4 lines of code. Most inventory lists for lockers can be changed on the fly. I can add a mounted pulse rifle that the detective can't even use into their locker if I so wanted and it would still compile and be there every round. You don't need to be a coder to know this.

It's people's choices to play subpar reference characters from anime games that are walking, breathing, boring stereotypes. It's not necessarily against the rules to play such characters but you are not really required to interact with them. They are so lacking in depth anyway that once people stop paying them attention, the individual making those characters will drop them just to make new ones.

This is proving problematic for me; on one hand we had a resprite of the trench-coats which look so bad from the front view that they trigger my flight or fight response, while on the other hand this suggestion is a condemnation of an entire character concept. There is this growing mindset that the Noir theme obligates detectives to be this evil anti-RP archetype that runs around shooting antags and being constantly drunk so badly that they can't even do their job.

I have to ask; instead of removing these rather innocuous items, have you tried ahelping or filing IR's against bad detectives?

If your response to 'why remove it' is 'they can just as easily get the items in the load-out'. then what are you actually saying? All of these items can be replaced, so all of the characters you seem to have a problem with will NOT go away. People will still choose whether or not they will be Noir themed.

It's people's choices to play subpar reference characters from anime games that are walking, breathing, boring stereotypes

Ahh yes, the anime of 40's radio cereals

No, jackboot, clearly the outfit drives detectives to evil deeds and we must remove that means in which they will be tempted to evil acts. Chain smoking is a degenerate act and symbolic of the devil incarnate.

I disagree. That is very unreasonable.

-1

OR... You can just... You know, not wear it and leave it in the locker. Like what @Senpai Jackboot said, you are not forced into Noir, you have other options to take other than being Noir. I like for these clothing to stay as it helps the new detectives to enter and try on clothes and find their inspiration of what they envision their detective to be other than just Noir. A good example of being a detective would be Leo Wyatt, at first he thought about considering pulling off a Noir gimmick. He gave a good attempt and slowly broke off and made his own new gimmick by using Noir gimmick to find a whole new inspiration. These clothing and misc. items are not for fashion and to be used as loose cannons, they are used as a starting vertex to see where the player can drive their character into an interesting character. If the player decides they want to be full Noir and that's fine, that's the choice they are willingly to make. Of course, each choices we make have consequences/butterfly effect (ex. Until Dawn).

The suggestion is not to remove zippos, flasks and trenchcoats from the game entirely. It's to stop pushing them onto new detective players. When a new player start playing the detective and finds a zippo in his pocket, a flask in his locker and a noir trenchcoat with great protection values, guess what gimmick he will choose. That is pushing a gimmick onto players. You can talk about gear being optional all you want but if you give great stylised stuff to players they are going to use them (especially new players), adopting the gimmick in the process. And that leads to loose cannons detectives. And subsequently to detectives getting a bad reputation.

There's a lot of talk about bad detectives and how they act like loose cannons and how it makes a sub-optimal impact on the gameplay and how it doesn't make sense etc. etc.

Hearsay is not a credible source.

So community feedback doesn't matter? I don't think so

I'm just saying it's not a very healthy practive to give new detective players zippo, flask, fedora and a trenchcoat and then expect them play anything else but.

Assuming you meant practice. If so, I'll say that it is a healthy practice for the reasons stated above. You make it sound like the detectives are being forced to play a role but they are not. Please do not try to twist words and make it your way, it is not a very healthy practive.

Except the gimmick is being pushed on players. You have a choice of going either left or right. You're already facing right and you're told that if you go right you'll get a candy. Absolute majority will choose right, that's how human psychology works. That's pushing the decision. That's what noir gimmick currently is.

it's literally deleting 4 lines of code, nothing too complicated

Are you a coder? Do you have experience in coding?

Yes and yes. Any other questions?

Now if you still want to play a noir detective, go to your loadout, pick a zippo lighter, a cigarette packet, a trenchcoat and fedora and a flask. It remains there and is an option. But when it comes to players choosing how their detective will behave i think they need creative freedom without noir items looming over their head.

It still is a choice regardless, no one is being forced to play a Noir detective.

I'll say what I think of your OP now, throughout your suggestion. I still see you insisting on that Noir items in lockers restricts people's imagination of wanting to become different than just Noir. I do not see people saying that being a detective limits your imagination, I do not see people becoming one and only detective Noir although I do see people becoming detectives that are not just about Noir. I can say this for a fact that people knows me for making many unimaginable gimmicks as both antagonists and non-antagonists. I've even become a detective based on my inspiration from Persona 4 (Tohru Adachi and Ryutaro Dojima) and Ace Attorney (Gregory Edgeworth and Dick Gumshoe) by being able to use some of these equipments to further my gimmick and imagination with other people.

What's my point? My point is, people especially myself have already made enough interesting ways to roleplay their detective. If they're still unable to think of interesting ways to roleplay, they should consider watching some shows, playing games, watching other detectives behave in SS13, or come talk to the community. Unable to do any of those? Come with me and you'll be in a world of pure imagination. You need to simply take a look and you'll see into your imagination.

I would flip the argument and quote you on hearsay not being a credible source, however i will instead reply that if you see people moving away from noir gimmick and succeeding - that's great. Removing noir items from a standard loadout does not prevent them from doing so. Nor does it stop people who want to pursue a noir gimmick. All it does is it allows more artistic freedom for people making their first detective character. And more creativity and more professional gimmicks will result in better detective characters.

I suppose your argument is reasonable when you phrase it in that way, MO_oNyMan.

This is proving problematic for me; on one hand we had a resprite of the trench-coats which look so bad from the front view that they trigger my flight or fight response, while on the other hand this suggestion is a condemnation of an entire character concept. There is this growing mindset that the Noir theme obligates detectives to be this evil anti-RP archetype that runs around shooting antags and being constantly drunk so badly that they can't even do their job.

I have to ask; instead of removing these rather innocuous items, have you tried ahelping or filing IR's against bad detectives?

If your response to 'why remove it' is 'they can just as easily get the items in the load-out'. then what are you actually saying? All of these items can be replaced, so all of the characters you seem to have a problem with will NOT go away. People will still choose whether or not they will be Noir themed.

As i already said. New players joining as a detective for the first time see a zippo, flask and trenchcoat with bitchin armor values and decide to pursue a loose cannon lone wolf noir drunk gimmick (which is pulled by the pop-culture tropes and doesn't really work neither IRL nor in a corporate setting) which in turn leads to detectives getting a bad reputation. Can they choose other routes for their detective character? Yes. Will they? Highly unlikely. If they want to be a noir detective i would rather it be an evaluated choice. So that people could play a simple guy, a professional investgator first and then if they feel like they can pull it off move to the noir gimmick, not the other way around

I imagine the problem at large is that some people who enter SS13 expect it to be silly, and when they hear "noir" and attribute it with "silly", they immediately think their character should be designed along the lines of Frank Drebin. They hear "detective" and think "YOU'RE A LOOSE CANNON, BOBROVSKY!"

Aesthetic is very important, anyway. How someone looks and what options one has to look differently can and will immediately change pre-existing conceptions of how someone views another someone or something.

Rather than removing certain aesthetic options to enforce a different impression of what the role will be, maybe the detective should have a wider wardrobe?

Many people almost seem to be making straw man arguments here. The suggestion wasn't to remove or impede the noir gimmick, but just to make it something you opt in for rather than the default. If removing the flask etc from standard loadout even marginally improves RP variety, I think it should be done. It clearly isn't intended to target seasoned Aurora players but people who first try the role.

Apparently it is no massive undertaking, easily circumvented by people who do want that gimmick and encourages RP more reasonable with our setting. If only issue with recreating the gimmick is the armored trenchcoat, which whilst it seems weird to have to me personally, can just be placed in a locker or sth in the detective office. Pardon if I'm straw man:ing in return, but argument against seems to be protecting the metagaming value of the coat/intrinsic value of things should stay as they are?

Edit: added word I missed lol

You're supposed to wear formal dress. The only items of note that are of "noire meme" is the trenchcoat and fedoras. You don't have to wear them, just be in formal dress.

No, you aren't suppose to wear formal wear, you're suppose to dress professionally, as you are a professional. Trench coats aren't formal anyways. I'm in favour for moving the style of the trench coats out of being locked to Detective purely to allow everyone to be able to choose them in the loadout. Remove the armor stats, make them all-use. This way you have all four coats usable rather than just two for Non-Detectives. Same with their suits, actually. It's crazy to me that specific suits are locked behind specific roles. Like I can't come to work in grey slacks and a white shirt because the Detective does as well, or I can't wear black slacks, a black belt and a white shirt because the IAA does. Everyone should be able to wear these combos because they're all just professional work attire and our setting is professional corporate research facility.

Since you need me to make it blatantly obvious and that you can't read into a general statement, believing anything that isn't a DIRECT -1 to be not against (you're perfectly able to do this in regards to what you believed as positive responses, but not for negative ones) I will -1 this. Especially as this is a PR went up after all discussion stopped- discussion should be happening across the board of a PR, instead of slipped in amidst a contentious opinion on where this PR stands.

It's happened before and it's shitty.

-1 to this suggestion as a whole, and the PR itself. I'd suggest everybody who has a negative opinion to this to voice blatantly this opinion, as apparently it doesn't count otherwise. Likewise, everybody who has a positive opinion should also voice a +1.

EDIT: If there is questioning regarding "why tho" towards your PR, this should actually be refuted. Formal and professional, two statements for close-to-the-same things. The Noire esque content is professional, or formal. It fits the requirements for the standard, typical detective. How about instead of downright removing them, remove the mechanical benefits of wearing them, so your clothing restriction isn't limited by mechanical advantages? That would be a perfectly viable reason. So far, saying "I don't like noir content in 2560, it doesn't thematically fit the setting" has been given "why tho" responses as, it's just a single role, and a single set of clothing.

EDIT 2, Electric Boogaloo: I agree with [mention]AmoryBlaine[/mention] though, the actual suits they wear should be available in the loadout menu. I'd also like to go over "but we can put the trenchcoat and fedora into the loadout menu though" which, for characters who typically wear the trenchcoat and fedora is simply just going to them and saying "Your loadout points, hand 'em over." Even then, I have a suspicion that characters who previously wore the trenchcoat either will continue to, or only did so for mechanical benefit. So why remove them from the locker entirely? They're just one available suggestion of apparel out of many.

Will nothing have armor stats?

:-1:

Please stop removing flavor from the game. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Will nothing have armor stats?

The vest still provides armor. The upcoming jacket might have armor but frankly i would rather it didn't. If there's an emergency - wear a vest