Chada1

If a Service 'borg is being bwoinked for having a preference (over other service work) for assisting Crew with paperwork that sounds like it needs a staff complaint, because that mod/admin is really overstepping their bounds. And if giving 'borgs the equipment to do things = They have to do things to people, that's also a sign that there's an emphasis on playing your 'borg as efficiently as possible without concern for roleplay, which is a SERIOUS problem. (So this is just plainly not true) We should be cutting things down because they're not positive for gameplay/roleplay (And that includes removing modules that don't contribute much to rounds). A Service 'borg can choose not to work in the kitchen/bar unless commanded to, and it can choose to focus on doing paperwork for people no different than Clericals do now, even with these changes. If OOCly people are trying to force them to, that needs to be stopped, since it's practically forcing 'borgs to powergame (Do things as efficiently as possible with no regard to their character) This was the entire point of the new law blurb at the bottom that says 'Your laws refer to your character, not the player.' that I explicitly had added. Giving every 'borg a pen isn't enough to satisfy this because they also need to be able to hold paper, (which requires the paperwork gripper) and all of this other stuff, giving them enough tools to do this basically gives the entire clerical modules' toolset to another module. Roleplay does not mean we should ignore gameplay. Gameplay does not mean we should ignore roleplay. Roleplay and gameplay should support each other, currently, it doesn't in this situation. A clerical 'borg has almost no utility at all, that's not good for balance when 'borg slots are limited. It's that simple. And slots not being filled is even worse, because it means we have a 'borg slot occupied that can't do most of the services of other 'borgs (1 out of a possible 2). Nearly none of it. All of the roleplay abilities of the Clerical are still there with the tools being given to other modules, there's actually no loss here.

This is a thread to discuss this PR The premise is that we're removing the Clerical Module, there are a solid few reasons for it, I'm making this thread because a good friend heavily disagrees with me and has counterpoints towards the purpose, and I think it's fair that I should make a thread. My points are as follows: The Clerical Module has a very limiting niche, the niche being: Paperwork. No, really, that's the entire niche. The niche that Clerical has (Paperwork) is better suited spread out through several of the other Modules, Service can use the tools to make bar menus, put up flyers, etc. Research can use it to catalogue fauna, write a thesis, take notes from scientists. Mining (Now Supply) can use it to stamp orders, help illiterate (Or lazy) crewmembers fill out orders, etc. The actual baseline utility of a 'borg module is very important gameplaywise, because unlike IPCs or any other Crew race, there are a limited number of 'borgs per round on average. There isn't a whole lot of utility that 'paperwork' alone can bring to the round. (1-3 'borgs per round on average, so each of these 3 need to be able to bring a lot of utility to the round) The best argument has been that Clerical 'borgs bring roleplay to the round, but there's nothing they do roleplaywise that a Service or other 'borg module couldn't also do if given the roleplay tools. Is there anyone who disagrees with these arguments? Why should we keep Clerical as a module when faced with these realities and why shouldn't we merge their tools (Especially if they're so positive for roleplay and have very little gameplay detriment) to Research, Supply (Old Mining) and Research?

One way of fixing this might be to make the fade out actually just an effect and not apply to the mob, so when you turn around, the fade out stays exactly where the person was before, instead of updating for where they go.

None of this is going to fix the problem. Security will be in maint because Security has no reason not to be in maint if this change is reverted, it'll become near ritual that they'll patrol it all. They did this up until their access was removed. Maintenance is no different at all than them needing access to another department (Which they have to either ask for access to, or find another less subtle way in). The point on being able to respond to threats on a dime and constantly be aware of them is the problem that will lead to this happening. It's not worth the headache, and being canonically attacked doesn't mean the Aurora should be treated as a military base with Security patrols consistently every round over every inch which is what will happen.

Yes there is, Security is not meant to be stumbling around in Maintenance, it'd be like them stumbling around in Engineering all of the time, it's an Engineering place, not a Security place. Hence the term 'Maintenance' and not 'Dark Tunnels'

I'm big in support. Ballistics are awful for Antags, they always have been. Any gun with the ability to break your bones or embed in you has always been completely awful to fight against, since Antags are always 1-to-4 in population, even in Autotraitor, the traitors are often massively outnumbered. So if an Antag requires a surgeon, to remove embedded bullets, or repair this broken bone from rubbers, they're just out of luck, and the round often ends v. soon in an undesirable way like this. Blasters could fix this problem v. easily, just by being more like if you merged tasers and the ballistic .45's together and made them useful. As for Lore and 'outdated', the TCFL blasters can continue to be massively outdated. We can make our new Security blaster new tech that actually feels as if you were using a ballistic, which would make everyone win. A solution to the shoot through window problem is that potentially if they pass through a window, the power of the shots could be reduced by half, so window shots are just in general less dangerous. As an edit... They also look awesome

I have sort-of plans to merge the Mining and Clerical Modules into a greater 'Supply' module. Clerical was intended to be used as an aid for the HoP/Captain/Command/etc, but it never really was used for it, and Cargo does tend to have to do paperwork and stuff, and this'll make the Mining Module able to help Cargo in general a lot more overall similar to the Medical/Engineering modules. Do you think this'd solve your problems? ?

Security shouldn't be allowed to routinely patrol maintenance, so if this is going to be added back, some kind of thing needs to be added to stop them from doing that, be it a rule, a directive (No patrolling maintenance outside of emergencies in code green?) Or even just administrative ruling (If you're patrolling maintenance constantly without some kind of push like a carp break-in/Icarus Drones/etc, you're clearly looking for Antags/etc) So that needs to be handled.

I like it, but it definitely needs to be made less resource intensive, while it adds a lot to the game and mechanics, if it causes massive strain on the server, it might be too detrimental to keep -- We should try to fix that

I'm not sure if anyone ever posted to let you know @Winter404 But Geeves coded a thing that fixes your problem I think, be sure to send them your thanks ? You can find the PR here.

P. much, Zoroastrianism and Jainism are v. good examples of non-abrahamic monotheism, so if you want to get in the right headspace for monotheism outside of a Christian sense, they can make an ? frame of reference

Yup it's kinda like trying to compare Zoroastrianism and Jainism with Abrahamic religion (Or Christianity)

Alright so, I've sent in the updated wiki page for Revolution but it'll be a little while until it's approved, that should help the confusion some.

I'd like to remind everyone, that if you have any more constructive ideas aside from 'Revert' or 'Remove the mode', please post them in my feedback thread, I do want to fix the mode and I'd v. much appreciate any feedback you put there on ways you think could make the modes hit more than miss. Before this, my feedback was near completely positive, I need ideas of what to do to fix the mode from this point, I can't do anything with anything else. Feedback and ideas here.

I think people will be more likely to play the role if they're selected for it at round start than to convert into it mid round, so starting with just afew more + actually updating the wiki (RN it's still very out of date) might end up helping a decent amount. That + a command member at round start will I hope make it where rounds not getting off the ground are the exception but we'll see.

Alright, ty for the feedback tho ? I think #3 can happen, it's happened before, back when Cult was given pylons. Security at first was getting completely destroyed by them because they kept rushing into the cult bases, and slowly they adapted to stop. (And pylons were completely nerfed a bit later.)

The entire old Rev gamemode disagrees with you. Loyalists nearly always dominated the Station because they had authority. Command was on their side 7/10 times. I'm not implementing mechanics that most people hate (IE: Forced Conversion) Player culture can be changed via changes to the gamemode.

It could be an option, but if I did it that way I'd really like to set it so each head of each team can have their own agenda (Their own objective) and so they'd gather their own branch of the team to achieve it

People in general tend to side with teams if they have some amount of authority I'd think, (This was the problem with Loyalist before the rework) and so if one has a Command head, those under the Command member would be more likely to side with that team. It's a theory that's worth testing. As for it working with cult, that's also a thing people absolutely hate about that gamemode. And it's not a problem with the gamemode if so few people are willing to 'Be Cool', so much as a problem with the people not willing to 'Be Cool', that's the root cause here, so I'm thinking if we just skip the conversion phase and try to get stable numbers in each of the teams (If possible) that part may be solved and better than forced conversion. It could lead to it getting off the ground enough for other people to start joining the teams.

One idea I'm working considering rn, is making a Command member always spawn in both teams (If they're available to assign) with priority to the Fellowship. I'm hoping that helps, if you get anymore ideas please lemme know. The forced conversations are an option but I'm a bit hesitant, maybe I could up the number of Crew initially selected and have it scale up depending on players?

No, just do what zundy do, you can always improv a reason that fits your character

It isn't inconsistent and unreasonable to join the rev teams. The idea that it is is just plain wrong, you aren't forced to play a character that is absolutely loyal to NanoTrasen under the 'Believable character' rules. You can play a character who works for NanoTrasen out of necessity since it's just one of the best companies in the region for income You can play a character who works for NanoTrasen because it offers really good college subsidies and it's p. much your only shot of affording it, even tho you hate what it did to your hometown. You can play a character who isn't even working for NanoTrasen but is contracted by it, and see the benefit in helping these NanoTrasen employees in their cause, if only to injure this rival megacorp.

Not anymore, nop. Mindshields prevent you from joining both teams rn. This is mostly to prevent the HoS/Captain from joining one team and stomping the other (Like used to happen) We're trying to create a mix here where both teams have a chance and neither is completely eliminated nearly every rev round. But at the same time as having the round have stuff happen. So if you have any ideas seriously post them in my thread.

One idea that sprung to mind, is I could make both teams start with a Command member head by default (If one is available to assign) which might help rounds get off the ground.

I really think it'd be better posted in my feedback thread tho. Where I can use it to improve the mode, really, go here: