Chada1

What's most important to me is just re-enabling them for Cult with fewer mechanical hiccups, I also don't want them to be Better Cultists, just Not Literal Deadweight Cultists. I just want them to be able to be Cultists and not murderize themselves doing what everyone else tries to do. The blood runes being removed is purely a compromise to stop them from literally killing themselves with magic, but the intention isn't to make them Better Cultists and it was never intended to give them an advantage over the other Cult members. Weight that as you like. The idea is to reach a middleground where they can be Cultists without outshining or hindering the other Cult members, and yet still aren't much more powerful than them. Any changes, even if they were brand new, need to be reasonable and balanced in regards to the other Cultmembers.

Cult EMPs can be made to ignore all Cult members, maybe. Also, IPCs can be removed from round-start possibilities and yet still be convertable.

Like it or not, Being able to be soul stoned is implying the being has a soul. The item being called a soul stone has that effect. This is only a valid argument against people arguing 'JUST A ROBOT!' for why to exclude them, as it was intentionally left in by the recent coder. Also, the point I was making is that the page could be inconsistent with many others, and it is. Positronic Brains do defy the laws of physics, as explained on the wiki, and that's okay. It's sci-fantasy, and I only used that as an argument because they were arguing 'Realism'. As for why it's derailed, most people are ignoring the gameplay aspects and going for Lore arguments, so it became a Lore argument.

No, what it shows is you're trying to compare a literal robot level intelligence to an advanced future sapient being that is capable of complex thought and decisionmaking. AKA: The source of the problem. That is Beepsky that you're comparing to GladOS, as an analogy. IPCs do not work like that, it has no precedent for their function. You would only have a point when comparing them to Robots. Which heavily implies many have Utilons not defined by their creators. This is two differing extremes. IPCs are closer to the latter than the former. Infact, some IPCs players play as central AIs who were given freedom. The source of the problem is you have a serious misconception of the Lore. You are not breaking the rules by creating a character with a unique background and mannerisms that can respond to situations independently and in their own unique way-- you argue they are. And i'm telling you, you are downright incorrect. IPCs are not lawed, they are capable of free thought and responding to situations intelligently and in a non-scripted manner. They do not have to respond a situation the same way every time it happens, because they could recognise the last time they responded, their action ended in a non-favorable way. Something Robots cannot do. Stop shoehorning them into a limited 'borg-like position, they are not 'borgs. Have you heard of the concept of loaded words? Sentient and Sapient are used interchangeably in unprofessional conversation, it's usually used to denote something of serious intelligence. For instance, people often say that Chimpanzees aren't sentient, what they really mean is sapient, because Chimpanzees are sentient. None of my points have been invalid, you just refuse to accept them. I have showcased this. Whether you accept it or not, we'll have to agree to disagree. Stop trying to argue IPCs have a robots level of intelligence. They don't, that is a fact. The Synthetics page literally says their Utilons can be dynamic, they subconsciously change.

1- You said I was wrong a few times, without addressing the arguement at hand, sometimes just flat-out ignoring the logic, facts, and sources presented. 2- Good thing it is in development. How is this relevant? The last edit was October 2017. That's pretty recent. 3-Artificial brains are something very real (see: neural networks, machine learning, DARPA SyNAPSE Program, among others), the only "sci-fi" part of it is the maturity of the tech that we have in our lore, otherwise, the concept is not only possible in theory, it is being done in practice, albeit in initial stages. 4-They cannot form a 100% different personality. I quoted directly from the wiki, again 5-Logical analysis is used for problem-solving and task-handling. NOT for questioning their artificial morality, since, again, they cannot change the utilon values assigned upon their construction. 6-They are sapient, I agree. But that is not equal to sentient. 7-I'm not acting like "robotic IPC is the norm". Just looking for consistency in IPC lore and not handwaving "each player decides whatever", just like it is with other races. You have a lore to fit into, it's not just "muh human robot with soul because ghosts". 8-IPC coding cannot be decided by the IPC itself, that's an egregious statement. But I agree that they can perform their own decision-making, within their spectre of utilons, machine-learning processes, programming, etcetera. I'll skip #1. 2: That edit only added the 'In Active Development'. 3: Artificial brains in the modern world are not even an iota as close to what a Positronic Brain entails. If Positronic Brains were so simple, no person with any sense would've upgraded past Robotic Computing Circuits, as they do all of this as you lay it out and better. 4: Yes, they can, welcome to this quote. 4, Addendum: Which heavily implies many have Utilons not defined by their creators. 5: Logical analysis is used for whatever the AI decides to use it for, and that's not something you get to decide, it's not your character. 6: They are Sapient, and that is what most people mean when they say Sentient. 7: You Are acting like Robotic IPCs are the norm in the Lore. Let 'borgs be the streamlined nearly pure Robotic role, and stop trying to force IPCs into it. IPCs are allowed to alter their personality with experience. The utilon shift would merely be subconscious (IE: Done OOCly). It says so on the 'Synthetics' wiki page. All your points have been addressed and you're still incorrect. Being Robotic as an IPC is a sign of a good roleplayer, not a literal requirement for all IPCs. They vary! It's the entire niche for Shells to be human-like but slightly off, as an example. With your interpretation, that wouldn't even be possible.

Allow me to make a quick analogy IPCs are positronic brains in a chassis. A computer's casing. Positronic Brains are processing units made of machine parts. A computer's CPU. And computer hardware doesn't do anything on its own without programs. An android wouldn't magically create sentience just for being put together. They can form their personality through experience, but it would quite literally be following laws or directives. Otherwise, the personality is pre-programmed. They are not subject to sentience tests, true. That doesn't prove they are sentient. Just means they don't have to run tests. They still only emulate sentience, as per what is written on the wiki. You are utterly entirely wrong. That page you're looking at is under active development if you will look at the top of it. Positronic Brains do not conform to real world science as the actual concept is not possible. They may be coded to act a certain way, but they are completely, 100%, capable of diverging from that direction and forming an entirely new, unique personality, not unlike a person raised to think a certain way realising why they shouldn't. The only difference is they would base their divergency off of logical analysis instead of emotion. They are entirely sapient and entirely capable of going beyond their intended purpose. This of course, depends on the player and their character. There are IPCs who lean towards Robotic, but those are not the norm, stop treating like it is. Only Robots (The Cyborg Alt-title) are forced to run pre-programmed coding and not capable of free-thought, IPC coding and decisionmaking can be original and decided on by the IPC itself.

That isn't how it works. Robots are the ones that run pre-scripted programs. Not IPCs, IPCs are capable of complex thought and have the ability of forming their own opinions and even personality through experience. You can speak to Cake about it, I can even post excerpts from me speaking to them. Emotion by no means defines sentience in this situation, the IPC wiki page confirms them as sentient. This is for the ones purchasing their freedom. Maybe sentience isn't the correct word, Sapience is. IPCs are canonically sapient and capable of complex thought. It's the entire boon of Positronic Brains. Otherwise, they'd have stuck to MMIs and Robotic circuits.

Downright incorrect. They emulate Emotion, they are free-thinking sentient entities. The Utilon system is not hardcoded and the IPC player can choose to assign values as they see fit, it would be a creative stonewall if they weren't able to and IPCs would not be capable of character development.

As it stands, they have been entirely removed from being able to be Cultists. They can only be Soulstoned and turned to Constructs. This merely fixes the problems that are inherent with them in the mode, such as making them immune to the Cults EMP that currently kills them. There's no way you can spin that as a negative, it's one of the main reasons IPCs aren't able to efficiently play as Antagonists in the gamemode. The inability to create runes is a compromise to stop them from effectively killing themselves with spells, as currently they either have to go to the Roboticist or depend heavily on other Cultists to repair them as they do blood magic. Do you have any other ideas? Doing nothing leaves them as completely excluded from being Cultists, making these changes enables them to be Cultists but also addresses what makes them so dependant on other Cultists just to survive. As it stands, it's a detriment to the Cult because they effectively kill themselves, and to remove the damage they sustain from blood magic would be giving an unfair advantage to them. I think it's arguably less fair to have them forced to play as Constructs and nothing else.

Overall it's irrelevant to the suggestion. All mechanics point to them having souls. This suggestion isn't about 'borgs and people need to stop trying to make it about them. IPCs are not 'borgs. Magic will not be explained in Lore. Then let's sit down and wait for official word on souls instead of hearsay. Fair enough, i'm fine with waiting for official word before continuing that line of argument. However, Even now, with IPCs not allowed to join the Cult, you realise 'Soulstones' can capture an IPC, right?

Yes, they do, what's the point? Going to need a proper citation on this, and not just from the fact that cyborgs can ghost. Overall it's irrelevant to the suggestion. All mechanics point to them having souls. This suggestion isn't about 'borgs and people need to stop trying to make it about them. IPCs are not 'borgs. Magic will not be explained in Lore.

Any official word is better than hearsay, which is the matter of IPC souls for the moment. Heck, if IPC's have souls then Cyborgs definitely have souls. Yes, they do, what's the point?

The main difference [mention]Asheram[/mention] is that policy suggestion is asking for the regulations to represent how people in the setting treat them, it isn't how they are OOCly, it's how people see them and treat them ICly. IC perspectives and OOC perspectives are not the same thing. It's perfectly reasonable ICly for humans to view them as inanimate objects, with a fake sentience, but that is only an IC stance. OOCly, they are sentient.

Can you point me to where I can find such information? Wiki states "Ultimately they are robotic in nature" and "The book definition of an android is ‘an automaton designed to mimic human life.’ This is applicable to today’s androids" So what gives? Ask Cake and multiple other people. They're the ones who spread this information. As for them having souls, what do you think the players' ghost is? That's canon. Why do you think soulstones work on them? That's canon. Being robotic in nature and being 'Just a robot' are not the same thing. Beepsky is just a robot. The robot alt-title for 'borgs is 'Just a robot'. IPCs are not just a robot. They are sentient.

The 'Just a robot' line of thought is outright incorrect, IPCs are sentient beings (And canonically have souls) unless roleplayed otherwise. And Nar'sie is entirely capable of twisting metal and machines to their bidding, there is no reason even before being pulled into our realm that they couldn't also twist the mind of a mechanical being. There are in-lore reasonings for why Station-bounds would be immune and for why LI's would block it. The original suggestion for their removal from Cult was not because it was unbelievable, it was due to underlying problems with how their gameplay synchronized with the gamemode, that is what this is meant to fix. And the original suggestion certainly wasn't intended to remove them from Wizard, it specifically said so in the text wall. This coming from someone who plays 'Just a robot'

Ok, now you're just derailing the thread. This isn't to code 'borgs as being convertable. This is about IPCs. Arguing for why 'borgs should get the same treatment as IPCs or the reverse is foolhardy, they are not the same.

That's because in all technicality, 'Borgs and AI can't *be* unlawed. They can only have their laws wiped, they are still subject to the law system, it is only refreshing their laws as null. Hence, still immune to Nar'sie. As for the rest, the main reason I made this suggestion is because I saw a compromise, more than likely the restricting is going to be reversed by the IPC Lore dev IMO, this is just a happy middle ground.

Nar'sie corrupts the entire station when he arrives on our plane itself. By then your status as living or synthetic is completely irrelevant because reality is being warped. But you can't convert borgs or AIs, for heck's sake, I don't honestly see a compelling reason why IPCs should be convertible too unless you're going from a purely mechanical standpoint, which says you can 'because they have hands and count as a human mob'. Are they somehow super special snowflakes that are completely different from other synthetics? How is that, exactly? There isn't really a reason being given other than 'nar'sie can do anything he wants'. Which again, is a justification for inclusiveness, not a logical reason for doing this. Even you admit it's not tenable for them to be a regular cultist because of how their self-damage mechanics work. Why do you think being a crippled half cultist is somehow more reasonable than just... not being able to be a cultist, for the sake of narrative consistency? Because 'borgs are linked to the Station and usually to the AI. Even if Nar'sie corruptd their code they would resync with the master server. IPCs are not linked to anything. IPCs with the Loyalist implant which is the equivalent of being locally lawed if you think about it, are still immune. Also; Poze is the one coding this, and he asked a question just on the last page on whether to remove paper damage to IPCs. Maybe you should answer that.

There are multiple other reasons that IPCs shouldn't be part of the Cult currently. One of their most important spells kill them for petesake, and all of their spells damage them and they cannot repair themselves. Changes are absolutely necessary and the only reason I made this suggestion is because the Lore dev for IPCs didn't support their removal from Cult and I saw a valid compromise -- To fix the underlying problems with IPCs joining Cult. As it stands, IPCs have multiple mechanics reasons that inhibit them from being a Cultist and doing everything that a Cultist needs to do. This change is aimed to make them not dead weight. The reason casting is being removed isn't just because it's unbelievable, it's because it damages them and they can't repair themselves, and with 8-10 casts they have broken limbs. The reason it would be restricted is that they can't use spells without being a hinderance to their allies, the believability is just icing on the cake. Also [mention]Kaed[/mention] Nar'sie corrupts the entire Station, you mean to tell me it's unreasonable that it could corrupt a simple IPC?

Recently, there was a PR to outright remove IPCs from being round start Cultists or convertable, placing a link to it here. https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4711 There is currently a Contributor working on a refactor that will: 1. Make IPCs convertable again into Cultists. 2. However, remove blood casting for IPCs, as they do not have blood nor can they repair themselves. 3. And make Cultist IPCs (Only when converted) immune to Cult EMP magic. This would solve most of the problems presented in the recent suggestion, and still allow IPCs to contribute to the Cultist gamemode without being a drain on their Cult allies or being doomed to serve as a construct. Feedback appreciated. Pozes PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4734 A new PR has shown up after discussion to reinclude conversion, the only problem is as it stands it's effectively the same as soulstoning an IPC except you convert them into one instead, only the IPC gets to choose which Construct it plays as. Arrows PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4779

Hello people, Happy new dev cycle Happy mothers day. Once more, I went ahead and updated the list since merge just hit. Let me know if I missed anything. PAGES TO BE UPDATED (Note, Green is lower priority, Blue is medium priority, Red is high priority. A star means it is new to this edit of the list.) Other Antags[/u] (There are still many guides to Antags that need to be updated especially following the dev cycle to come, noteably Changeling, Wizard, Malf, Ninja and Cult.) Medical:[/u] (Current additions assigned to Burrito Justice. However, this just notes that they're reviewing and correcting/altering guides. Feel free to chip in where you see incorrect information.) R&D Guide:[/u] (Unassigned, but the Guide to Research and Development page is extremely out of date, it needs to be updated and improved.) Possible Bartender guide updates[/u] (Current additions assigned to noone. This is here due to not knowing if Barista should be added to the Bartender guide or not.) Quartermaster page[/u] (Handled by Lord Balkara, moved to update due to the new Cargo shop map change, however this is low priority due to possible dev plans to alter/remove it.) Internal Affairs Agent:[/u] (Unassigned, but updates are needed. Note: CCIA have plans to discuss changes to IAA policy, this is low priority due to that, as anything you update may be null after those plans. If you update this, get into contact with a CCIA.) Medical Imagemap page:[/u] (Assigned to Chada1, clickable map of the department) (Put on hold due to imminent map changes) Engineering Imagemap page:[/u] (Assigned to Chada1, clickable map of the department) (Put on hold due to imminent map changes) Cargo imagemap page.[/u] (Handled by Chada1, clickable map of the department) (Put on hold due to imminent map changes) Security imagemap page.[/u] (Handled by Agentwhatever, assigned to Chada1, clickable map of the department) (Put on hold due to imminent map changes) An update to the Improvised Weapons page.[/u] (In a recent dev cycle, improvised armor was added into the game, this should be added to the Improvised Weapons page alongside any other weapons. Still important.) Cargo imagemap page.[/u] (Handled by Chada1, clickable map of the department) (Put on hold due to imminent map changes) An addition of face recognition surgery for IPCs to the Guide to robotics *[/u] (Unassigned. Needs to be added due to unique steps supposedly, like the use of a multitool which separates it from the normal facial recognition surgery) PAGES TO BE REVIEWED (Note, Green is lower priority, Blue is medium priority, Red is high priority. A star means it is new to this edit of the list. These priorities are only set to encourage review and have no bearing on guide quality) Science imagemap page.[/u] (Handled by Chada1, clickable map of the department) (Put on hold due to imminent map changes) Food guide updates:[/u] (Recent additions by Climax708 and Chada1, it includes the recent addition to the guide of various Unathi foods coded by Burger as well as Bacon, Rootbeer and the new Coffee recipes and a new section for them. Set for review due to possible incorrect information regarding the recipes, as they were pulled from the relevant code and not created ingame.) Psychologist[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice. Still needs review in case of inconsistency, but on a glance it seems great.) Guide to Medicine[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice. Far too many changes were made for me to not include it here. Review needed of the Brain traumas section especially.) Guide to Chemistry[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice. Far too many changes were made for me to not include it here.) Antagonist Uplink Guide[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice, placed here for review.) Contraband Guide[/u] (Handled by Synnono, placed here for review.) Job guides page[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice, placed here for review.) EVA Guide *[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice, placed here for review.) Hardsuit *[/u] (Handled by Burrito Justice, placed here for review.) Z-level traversing hotkey for the guide to controls. *[/u] (This one had been minor but couldn't be missed. Handled by Chada1) * Oxycandles *[/u] (Added to the EVA guide by Burrito Justice) Food guide updates: *[/u] (More food had been added, updated by Climax708) Mental Medication, Organs, and other additions *[/u] (Updated onto multiple guides by Burrito Justice) Community input is still very important. Again, let me know if I missed anything, otherwise we can't fix it.

Nar'sie made malware was 100% A lighthearted joke by me, it was the idea that a god of suffering and death could be behind such an evil creation. Anyhow, I was against this at first, but the way you laid down your perspective won me over. There really is no reason that IPCs should be able to join the Cult, and I do find it great that Cult will only compromise organics while Malf will only compromise synths. It's a good contrast between the two. And it's true that IPCs are clearly not designed with the Cult gamemode in mind, they neither have blood or regeneration. It just feels like a no brainer to remove them from the possibilities. Maybe keep sharding but even that is questionable.

All of the rest of this I agree with, but this part is incorrect. You can't remove the brain from an MMI anymore, and lore has said removing the brain from an MMI destroys it. The only way to ensure cloning is possible is to get the person pre-scanned in cloning before undergoing Cyborgification.

The sprites look *Really* good and AFAIK I see no issues in the background myself. While we have the occasional talk on Discord, i've only really roleplayed with their Roboticist (David Hawthorne) and they were pretty good, so +1.

Still a little frighteningly concise as the first paragraph that I quoted, but I have my answers. If I had any feedback it's to maybe try to be a bit more detailed in both future apps and your replies -- But i'll +1 because you gave me what I asked for, and it's possible without disturbing the atmosphere of the Skrell as far as I can see.