Random Asteroid "Dungeons"

[BurgerBB]

Alrighty then.

[mention]HunterRS[/mention] You're dismissing a PR that will make mining interesting on the basis that you, personally and self-anecdotally, believe that miners are shallow creatures that will not report the location of ruins while also giving me a lecture on how I'm being a terrible person for claiming that science players are selfish spoiled brats. I will repeat this: you're giving me a lecture for being a dick to science players because I called them selfish brats, all while directly saying "-1 unless we can propose a way to keep miners out of it" in a PR designed to make mining more interesting.

Is a player being shitty and refusing to play realisticly? Ahelp them. Submit an incident report. Submit a player complaint.

[mention]Kaed[/mention] If a miner follows a trail of human remains and encounters a big scary monster at the end of the remains, ends up dying, I'm going to laugh hysterically at them and anyone else who think it's my fault for not being obvious enough. I don't know how to drive that point home. It's like saying that holes should be removed because new players wouldn't know that going down them would kill them.

[mention]Ornias[/mention] Straight up if anyone says a feature shouldn't be added because it means someone else will have fun then I'm going to audibly roll my eyes while at the same time develop crippling depression. From an oocly standpoint, players are not obligated to include them on the fun when they discover something cool in a dungeon, They, if realistic icly, can keep a discovery all for themselves and perhaps develop roleplay around that. I would straight up agree with people if this hindered science, but it doesn't. The reasonings people are putting forward is "This shouldn't be added because others will have fun and I won't be on in their fun." and it's quite frankly offensive.

[BurgerBB]

The idea sounds neat, something fun to do as mining, especially around the later parts of the shift. Although I can see a problem arising from miners rushing for these, right of the bat, ignoring their mining duties for the sweet loot within. And a concern with miners valid hunting with the gear they get. I'd suggest to have 80-90% of these be more like broken cargo shuttles full of crates you'd see cargo see, merchant ships with crates you'd see in the merchant outpost (the three that spawn), or vox ships with artifacts and vox items you'd see raiders with. I can't predict how it would go, though. I'd like to see it, just starting with a trial period to make sure it can be handled, especially with the summer tide coming in.

 

The problem will be countered by the fact that new players won't know where the dungeons are, and if they rush for them, they will likely and very easily die given how 90% of the spawns themselves will just be carp nests that will require more than a level 2 custom kinetic accelerator. It's about as futile as rushing the Spare ID as an assistant with nothing but a toolbox, your grey suit, and budget insulated gloves. You will die get jailed.

The dungeons themselves will be far away from the mining area. They'll be mostly north-east of the map on the main level, and scattered across on the lower and upper levels.

[Yonnimer]

One another question, how big are you planning on the asteroid dungeons being, least on average?

[BurgerBB]

New changes:

- Each unique area will contain a random artifact. This means that xenoarchaeology can find a ruin easier.

- Many of the areas are difficult to actually get into accidentally. There will be openspace and a wall around the areas where you're not intended to get in. This decreases the chance that someone will accidentally stumble upon a carp.

 

One another question, how big are you planning on the asteroid dungeons being, least on average?

 

Each area is 32 tiles per 32 tiles, however they can be smaller. Just as a reminder, they're not really "dungeons" as much as just areas.

https://i.imgur.com/zUT4IAL.png

https://i.imgur.com/hpdWNhB.png

https://i.imgur.com/3bLGmkB.png

[Kaed]

@Kaed If a miner follows a trail of human remains and encounters a big scary monster at the end of the remains, ends up dying, I'm going to laugh hysterically at them and anyone else who think it's my fault for not being obvious enough. I don't know how to drive that point home. It's like saying that holes should be removed because new players wouldn't know that going down them would kill them.

 

Lets look at it from another angle, then, since you're so adamant about this: Realism vs nonsensical 'game logic'

Why are there human remains on the asteroid? If they're from a previous shift, they should have been reported and cleared up. If there are human remains, they are, by default, evidence that other people were there before you and died, and it undermines the whole plausibility of the situation.

Why do they lead to a sealed area where there are space carp inside that presumably are the ones that created the corpses? Did the carp wall themselves in afterwards? Why were the carp not exterminated? How are they alive after all this time?

Why is there random shit in this cavern with the space carp? Who put it there? Did the carp manifest it magically by shitting it out? If it was the people who left the corpses, why are there no corpses in the room with the carp?

By contrast, having ruins and crashed ships and things can fit a lot better into a narrative than a bunch of random shit and monsters just being there for no other reason than 'gives miners something to do once and a while'

[BurgerBB]

nanotrasen doesn't give two shits about a bunch of lost construction workers who strayed too far from the construction site

[Kaed]

That answers about 20% of the problems with this concept by grabbing hold of the nanotrasen is evil meme and running it into the ground. Did those people's families evaporate the moment they died on the asteroid? That's some bad PR there, NT loses a bunch of miners and 'doesn't give a shit'.

And also doesn't address the other problems, which makes me think you don't really have an answer. Because the entire premise hinges on the idea that people suspend their disbelief for the purpose of just inconsistent adding content for the sake of it.

I reiterate, again. Dungeons need to be concrete structures of fixed designs (there can be a lot of them, though) that spawn by chance, and don't rely on RNG just to determine the entirety of their content. 'Some fish and random stuff' is a low effort and low reward concept that does very little to improve the game

Nor do they need a bunch of monsters that attack you the moment you discover the locale, or 'warning signs' that inexplicably appear on the other side of solid rock to scare you away. If there's monsters, they should be inside the structure, so you have to actively venture inside to be threatened by them, making it a conscious choice to take a risk, not something you can accidentally trigger because you drilled a rock. All the subtle clues in the world mean very little except giving you a reason to laugh at someone who missed what you were trying to convey, which is just spiteful.

[BurgerBB]

That answers about 20% of the problems with this concept by grabbing hold of the nanotrasen is evil meme and running it into the ground. Did those people's families evaporate the moment they died on the asteroid? That's some bad PR there, NT loses a bunch of miners and 'doesn't give a shit'.

And also doesn't address the other problems, which makes me think you don't really have an answer. Because the entire premise hinges on the idea that people suspend their disbelief for the purpose of just inconsistent adding content for the sake of it.

I reiterate, again. Dungeons need to be concrete structures of fixed designs (there can be a lot of them, though) that spawn by chance, and don't rely on RNG just to determine the entirety of their content. 'Some fish and random stuff' is a low effort and low reward concept that does very little to improve the game

Nor do they need a bunch of monsters that attack you the moment you discover the locale, or 'warning signs' that inexplicably appear on the other side of solid rock to scare you away. If there's monsters, they should be inside the structure, so you have to actively venture inside to be threatened by them, making it a conscious choice to take a risk, not something you can accidentally trigger because you drilled a rock. All the subtle clues in the world mean very little except giving you a reason to laugh at someone who missed what you were trying to convey, which is just spiteful.

 

Then perhaps when the pr gets merged (it will) you can modify it to your liking

[Garnascus]

if the science to mining relationship is such a big issue you could just add some ore that spawns along with other dungeon rewards. Monsters should definitely only be INSIDE dungeons though.

[BurgerBB]

if the science to mining relationship is such a big issue you could just add some ore that spawns along with other dungeon rewards. Monsters should definitely only be INSIDE dungeons though.

 

Yes, definitely. There are a few dungeons that spawn with phoron and other materials that would be useful for either science or cargo, some even have guaranteed mineral deposits. As mentioned before, all the major ones spawn with guaranteed artifacts for science.

Though it seems that the meme that monsters are outside dungeons has gotten a hold of you. All monsters are located inside the dungeon, and can never be encountered unless you intentionally encounter them, or get unlucky and fall inside a hole leading to a dungeon.

[Kaed]

Though it seems that the meme that monsters are outside dungeons has gotten a hold of you. All monsters are located inside the dungeon, and can never be encountered unless you intentionally encounter them, or get unlucky and fall inside a hole leading to a dungeon.

 

 

Since you seem to be having trouble understanding our problems with your idea and think it is some kind of false meme, I have taken one of your 'dungeon designs' and helpfully included some pointers on 'free-roaming monsters that are not inside a structure'. "Walls of stone that look exactly the same as procedural generated stone throughout the area" do not adequately mark the borders between 'a dungeon' and 'the rest of the mines'.

In fact, this design in particular fails to actually close off the 'dungeon' entirely, which means that these carp can wander off into open areas that were generated outside the dungeon space and attack miners who didn't even breach a wall.

[BurgerBB]

That one design was one of the worst ones. I might scrap it all together, but earlier today I added skulls around all the entrances of the circle.

[Tailson]

I like the spirit of this idea a whole lot, and it can be used to foster a fair bit of roleplay if done correctly. I trust Burger to take on criticisms and work on it to get it good to go.

The walls thing looks like it's being addressed: That's good! We do need that barrier between mining zone and #danger zone#. Even if it was a type of dungeon that doesn't spawn monsters, it would be a good idea to have that definite line in the space-sand between normal and special areas.

The potential for mining to collaborate with science on these sorts of things is huge. A lot of people tend to get upset at the current cargo/science relationship which is definitely a thing that needs work. Occasionally miners will unearth an artifact and science will pop over to take it off their hands, which I see usually fosters some decent roleplay between involved characters. This takes it to a new level, with potential for miner/anomalist teamwork. This is 100% a good meme.

I would love to see some "temple-type" dungeons featuring a cool looking church dealie with a xenoarch anomaly as the centrepiece. Another way to bring mining and xenoarch together. (Let's face it, if this does roll out they'll be working together a lot.)

I agree with people that it shouldn't gift out random kit. A bunch of guns wouldn't really do much, but interesting reagents, cool "fluff" objects with no real gameplay value, artifacts, all sorts. Basically these dungeons, much like basically everything else should be here to facilitate roleplay in some way. Perhaps an ancient data cache or ancient posi-brain that a ghost player could hop into as a spooky ancient AI/golem sort of thing.

Uh, in summary, I really like the idea. Sure, there are a couple of issues, but with work to iron them out I think this would make an awesome addition to the asteroid.

Oh, last note as I almost forgot: Human corpses are a bad idea, just terrible. NT wouldn't overlook losing several people. Instead, why not a whole boatload of cave dweller corpses, or carp carcasses, space shark, etc. There are plenty of "native" fauna that can be used for this purpose. Generally, if I was in a forest and saw 8 dead bears outside of a cave I definitely wouldn't go in.

[Arrow768]

This topic has gotten out of hand quite a bit.

Focus on the discussion at hand: The addition of dungeons to the Astroid.

Regarding a few points raised in the op:

Yes, I believe that command should get a list of areas where "unusual sensor data" has been noticed.

That allows them to get people from a few departments to explore it, if they want to.

I do not really see an issue if these dungeons contain weapons (nothing overkill tough), possibly mech parts, processed materials, possibly xenoarch artifacts, ...

I also believe that they should all be defended with defenses depending on the loot found within the dungeon.

The dungeons should be somewhat self-contained so the creatures can not escape out of it easily and there should definitly be pointers that there is something going to happen, if you proceed into the dungeon.

Would it be possibly to add a slightly changed background sound if you enter a dungeon area ?

[Asheram]

*coughs* Should point out that Xenoarchaeology already has a lot of things that could spawn in these dungeons. Ancient weapons, votive items, tools..

Heck, even the occasional anomaly.

Wouldn't mind if Xenoarch got some actual structures to document and study.

[Saudus]

I like the general idea a lot, although not sure why it is considered "for mining" when the xenoarchs should love this?

I do think it is a bit of a shame if this feature focuses on putting in loot and mobs like it's some dungeoncrawler or sth though. Also we do need to hand waive away that it's a bit silly in terms of realism that there's some undiscovered area on the asteroid, but no real problem I think.

There's so much fun that could be done with this in terms of small stories or inclusion of lore. An escape pod that got stranded at the asteroid with the last will and testament of the occupants. A crashed merchant vessel with the remains of Vox raiders on it. Some ancient temple dedicated to some strange god. A now abandoned listening post used for corporate espionage by some rival company. A burial chamber with some unidentified occupant.

All of those things and more could tell stories with their contents, writing on paper, computer consoles etc. I'm sure there'd be people willing to write and design concepts for that for you Burger.

[BurgerBB]

The system is modular so if people have an issue with the current set of dungeons or spawns, they can make their own.

[BurgerBB]

This topic has gotten out of hand quite a bit.

Focus on the discussion at hand: The addition of dungeons to the Astroid.

Regarding a few points raised in the op:

Yes, I believe that command should get a list of areas where "unusual sensor data" has been noticed.

That allows them to get people from a few departments to explore it, if they want to.

I do not really see an issue if these dungeons contain weapons (nothing overkill tough), possibly mech parts, processed materials, possibly xenoarch artifacts, ...

I also believe that they should all be defended with defenses depending on the loot found within the dungeon.

The dungeons should be somewhat self-contained so the creatures can not escape out of it easily and there should definitly be pointers that there is something going to happen, if you proceed into the dungeon.

Would it be possibly to add a slightly changed background sound if you enter a dungeon area ?

 

I'm thinking of a possible Carp Sensor that detects the location of nearby carp. Central Command will also send a central command status report to one of the consoles at the 30 minute mark detailing possible areas.

The background music is a pretty good idea, however I need to find appropriate music and make a new system that places the background music near the surrounding area, as most dungeons use the 32x32 space provided.

[Chada1]

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I would like to point out that there is already a Xenoarcheologist job that is actively searching the asteroid for remnants of civilization. Lorewise, it would not be surprising in the LEAST that there could be a structure within the asteroid. They have found and continue to find countless evidence of it. And grounding these 'Dungeons' into the Lore further actively ruins the theme of xenoarcheology which is where you are meant to link your findings, anomalies, artifacts, rock age, and now ruins. That can't happen if you're too pedantic about it, it will ruin everything.

It's better for the dungeons to have a solid theme but be kept relatively vague in the grand scale of things, ranging from tribal, religious, cavernous, technological. These are the types of anomalies and artifacts you can already find. Further, I think Carp nests and 'Abandoned mining shafts' could be mining focused dungeons that can show up, the 'Abandoned mining shaft' could have some abandoned crates in it as well as a very light misc mining gear. And the carp nests could have a higher chance for decent ore instead of any loot.

After reading this thread, I noticed early on there was a severe lack of interaction between Xenoarcheology and these dungeons, there needs to be. Making a concept like this and intending to only include mining and not xenoarcheology when they have the same problem if not worse, is frankly very poor design. So, include them, and i'm not talking about dropping anomalies that can likely destroy the asteroid into it and nothing else. Drop regular artifacts in, too, with the randomized designs. I'd like to see Xenoarch and Mining working together a bit to find, clear, and research these places. I think the dungeon concept should be mostly focused towards Xenoarcheology instead of Mining, but also be something mining can do, a shared gameplay element.

I don't think this is worth implementing if it doesn't sufficiently include both asteroid roles.

[Kaed]

snipped

I would like to point out that there is already a Xenoarcheologist job that is actively searching the asteroid for remnants of civilization. Lorewise, it would not be surprising in the LEAST that there could be a structure within the asteroid. They have found and continue to find countless evidence of it. And grounding these 'Dungeons' into the Lore further actively ruins the theme of xenoarcheology which is where you are meant to link your findings, anomalies, artifacts, rock age, and now ruins. That can't happen if you're too pedantic about it, it will ruin everything.

 

what???

No really, what the hell are you talking about? How is this ruining xenoarchaeology? I've read over this paragraph six or seven times and I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems to me like it would give them more to do.

[BurgerBB]

"And grounding these 'Dungeons' into the Lore further actively ruins the theme of xenoarcheology"

Specifically here, and he's right. not every single pixel on the station needs a lore backstory. Dungeons having obvious lore or backstory just ruins the fun of them, I rather have player make up their own story about things that happened instead of spoon feeding pointless lore.

[Kaed]

Yeah I'm not sure what kind of ruins or dungeons you think people would be be putting in but I have no intention of them involving any 'lore' beyond perhaps vaguely tying one or two of them to the cult or something because they have a very cool thematic. And ancient crashed ships don't really have some kind of lore purpose either.

Nor does it hurt to have the occasional dungeon with some kind of clear backstory. Xenoarch spends most of their time picking aimlessly at rocks, it's not going to ruin them to find like, some kind of ancient skrell structure or whatever.

[Brutishcrab51]

What's stopping these dungeons from being reported and, instead of Mining going out to try and rambo a bunch of carps around human corpses (Like they shouldn't), Security getting involved with their laser rifles and voidsuits like they should?

If it's not reported, that's negligence on the part of the Miners, at face value.

This needs to be realistic, and it needs to not be directed for one department alone. At the moment, this does neither of those things. Miners are not soldiers, and their last duty should be attacking a bunch of carps just for cool loot when the station has a fully kitted paramilitary security force.

Shuttles are fine, but 'dungeons' surrounded by carp with fancy doors and loot? Come on now. That's ridiculous. We're trying to present a serious environment, this isn't GoonStation, not all jobs have to be action-packed.

[Kaed]

What's stopping these dungeons from being reported and, instead of Mining going out to try and rambo a bunch of carps around human corpses (Like they shouldn't), Security getting involved with their laser rifles and voidsuits like they should?

If it's not reported, that's negligence on the part of the Miners, at face value.

This needs to be realistic, and it needs to not be directed for one department alone. At the moment, this does neither of those things. Miners are not soldiers, and their last duty should be attacking a bunch of carps just for cool loot when the station has a fully kitted paramilitary security force.

Shuttles are fine, but 'dungeons' surrounded by carp with fancy doors and loot? Come on now. That's ridiculous. We're trying to present a serious environment, this isn't GoonStation, not all jobs have to be action-packed.

 

Yes.

[BurgerBB]

What's stopping these dungeons from being reported and, instead of Mining going out to try and rambo a bunch of carps around human corpses (Like they shouldn't), Security getting involved with their laser rifles and voidsuits like they should?

If it's not reported, that's negligence on the part of the Miners, at face value.

This needs to be realistic, and it needs to not be directed for one department alone. At the moment, this does neither of those things. Miners are not soldiers, and their last duty should be attacking a bunch of carps just for cool loot when the station has a fully kitted paramilitary security force.

Shuttles are fine, but 'dungeons' surrounded by carp with fancy doors and loot? Come on now. That's ridiculous. We're trying to present a serious environment, this isn't GoonStation, not all jobs have to be action-packed.

 

If a miner acts like an idiot then they act like an idiot. there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop a miner from being a fool mechanically unless you implement ridiculous "fixes" like mysteriously unreadable pill bottles on CM. It is 100% and completely acceptable OOC for a miner to go into a ruin and go rambo as long as it makes sense for that character to do so. It's called roleplay, we're not goonstation.

I've repeated this several times to several people who brought up the same depressing point; which is something along the likes of "Miners are selfish/dumb this is bad for those poor poor miners, science is smart make them involved instead :("

And I'll keep repeating the point: "Do it yourself, Science." If you want to go find ancient ruins, crashed ships, or other things? Go Xenoarch. Get yourself an upgraded kinetic accelerator. Go find them with a small team if you want. There is nothing stopping you from finding this ruins before the miners do.

I'm just going to start ignoring bad posts that paint miners in a negative light. Honestly I prefer posts that just saying "-1 retard addon" because it's faster to read and doesn't contain a very depressing viewpoint of our community.