Metabolism limiting based on chem type

[BurgerBB]

I made a system that prevents the exploit known as KeloDerm and CryoClonexadone by making it so that metabolism is limited based on the chemical type.

PR here: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5273

[Conspiir]

So to make sure we're all on the same page here, would there ever be a reason to use KeloDerm over just Dermaline* or CryoClonex over just Clonex?

*I might've put Kelotane at first

[BurgerBB]

So to make sure we're all on the same page here, would there ever be a reason to use KeloDerm over just Dermaline* or CryoClonex over just Clonex?

*I might've put Kelotane at first

 

The only reason you would use KeloDerm over Dermaline is if you want to avoid overdose and also want to save on chemicals.

[Resilynn]

What does this add? What is the point?

[furrycactus]

Combining Kelotane and Dermaline allows burn damage to heal faster, because it's two medications metabolizing. But as a tradeoff, you heal less damage overall than you would if you used just dermaline. The same principal follows with cryoxadone and clonexadone, you heal a little bit faster with both medicines working. But is it really such a big deal? It's not exactly game breaking in any fashion. Dermaline, Kelotane, Bicaridine, and Dexalin are all pretty slow acting.

[Snakebittenn]

KeloDerm is both an oversight, and a bug. It isn't intended for chems of the same exact effect to stack like that, as they are very old /tg/ era chemicals. You don't need this combination, it's just that the current medical meta of 'we must heal as fast as possible' encourages the use of such exploits.

[Resilynn]

See, I think having to make the decision to either heal more or heal faster is actually neat and helps make chemistry more dynamic? I say this as a hardcore 'I'd rather use dermaline than keloderm' fan.

[MoondancerPony]

I'm in the same boat as Resilynn; while I don't use keloderm, I can see the appeal, and further player choice in the chemical mixes they want to use is good. There's no clear advantage of one over the other, and it's ultimately up to player choice.

That said, the metabolism system Burger mentioned on the Discord shows some potential, but I don't know if that's what's implemented here given the barebones topic post. Competitive inhibition of certain chemicals that act similarly would make sense, but I'm not sure if that's what's going on here. Will have to look at it later, but as it stands, I don't see how it's a big deal.

Yes, it's an oversight, but there is such a thing as an "ascended glitch". Self-surgery, multi-surgery, and so on. If something favorably affects the metagame to make it more diverse and interesting, I would say that it would be worthy of being looked at-- even if it requires some tweaking to make it a well-rounded, balanced feature.

[Conspiir]

The only reason you would use KeloDerm over Dermaline is if you want to avoid overdose and also want to save on chemicals.

 

When this was originally suggested on the server, I thought it meant that KeloDerm would just do what Dermaline does since its the dominant chemical and there was never any point to making the mix anymore. In my head this equated to "Why would you ever make kelotane, just use dermaline forever" as though you were trading one chemical considered a "bug" for another that was just a step down in effectiveness. And I still see that, to a large extent, which is why I'm still on the fence about it. But at the same time, I see the use in a more long-term solution for severe burns so one doesn't overdose dermaline or something.

The medical meta is to heal as fast as possible because no one wants to be stuck in medical for 40 minutes. Spending whole rounds just waiting to be able to walk again isn't fun for the patient, and it certainly isn't good if all of security is there and the bad guys are running rampant. Security wants to get back out there, so you want to get them back out there. That's what medical does: get people back to their jobs efficiently. This change will certainly make it a bit less efficient in some cases. Is that a good thing? Depends on your perspective. Doctors may think it's fun, but is the patient going to enjoy longer cryo times and what have you?

I suppose it would depend entirely on how much fixing this years-old bug really changes. If it won't change much, why change it at all and if it will be a pretty big change, is it a good one for all parties involved?

[Scheveningen]

KeloDerm is both an oversight, and a bug. It isn't intended for chems of the same exact effect to stack like that, as they are very old /tg/ era chemicals. You don't need this combination, it's just that the current medical meta of 'we must heal as fast as possible' encourages the use of such exploits.

 

For as long as this has existed, the development team of Aurora has never observed the combination of kelotane and dermaline as a bug or an exploit, or other chemical combinations such as tricordrazine/[insert healing chem here.] Furthermore, if this is supposedly a bug or an exploit, how is it over the course of a few years since the merge to Baycode, this supposed exploit has never been reported on the github as an exploit? Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the community to report bugs or exploits in the game, assuming we give any credit to the theory that it is an exploit at all?

Medical has had a very long past of constant nerfing to its effectiveness. Be that due to nerfing mechanics or remapping medical to be inherently suboptimal, these repeated nerfs to the department will not improve the quality of roleplay. The nerfs will drive people away from wanting to play it and make use of its mechanics when it becomes so weak later down the line. It is not fun to have a department you enjoy playing targeted by contributors that dislike the players finding strategies to be good at their jobs and save other players+their characters in the round to put them back in.

This is is also a very hamfisted nerf to antagonists that wish to use more effective means of sustaining themselves either through the midst of combat or for first aid to treat themselves after a near-lethal confrontation. I will always dislike survivability nerfs especially when they apply to everyone that isn't an IPC/diona.

KeloDerm effectively heals 18 burn damage per unit provided the ratio of Kelotane and Dermaline mixed together is 1:1. This is an average of 9 healing per 5 ticks, as it takes 5 ticks to consume a unit.

In previous arguments for why this should be, the PR author has stated they want to make KeloDerm heal even less than what Dermaline heals on its own (that means less than 12 healing per 5 ticks, which is not insignificant). The PR author just wants to make it so that you're forced to adapt to a new style of play, because he views this strategy as an exploit.

It's not an exploit, it's an optimal strategy. It's not powergaming, it's just part of the game. But a more interesting way of going about it instead of removing the advantageous nature of it entirely is to still make it usable with consequence. Make it so that chemicals of the same damage healing type still add to an overdose threshold, because even in real life, you shouldn't be taking several different medications.

If you really want to punish chemists or medical doctors for using chemistry to cure all solutions, make overdose limits lower and especially so for combination chemicals. This will still add an interesting consequence of likely having to dialyzes someone you tried to heal to full health so quickly. This will make it so that medical doctors need to be more careful who they speed-heal, and characters that use Kelo-Derm in combat won't get completely nerfed into the dirt for trying to sustain themselves in mid-combat. Instead of removing powerful features from the game, add consequence to that strength to balance it out. Easy!

And if you want to nerf cryo/clonex combos, make 1:1 amounts synthesize into a new reagent instead, because speedcloning methods are actually a problem and should go.

(Also, self-surgery is somehow only possible if you buckle yourself to a chair made over a table. But getting caught doing that gets you a ban, since it's so blatantly obvious in the abuse of mechanics that also nonsensically foregoes roleplay.)

[Butterrobber202]

Yeah gonna say I am against this one, KeloDerm is just another way to play the game.

[furrycactus]

If you want to talk about absurd medications, look at Dexalin and Dexalin Plus, then. Regular Dexalin heals about 15 points of suffocation damage per unit, which is standard and more or less on equal terms with dermaline, bicaridine, and dyloveve.

Dexalin Plus heals 300 suffocation damage per unit.

300. Per 1u.

The threshold for death is 200 points of damage.

Anyway, if we're going with this path, does that mean using tricord with anything will make everything slow down, since it heals every damage type at a slow rate. What about Rezadone as well, and Arithrazine? Is it just going to be covering cryox/clones and KeloDerm, or most medications?

[BurgerBB]

wew lots of replies

let me try addressing all of them

The purpose of this PR is to add realism. It shouldn't make sense that combining a lesser medication and a greater medication heals faster than just the greater medication on it's own. The logic doesn't make sense.

Dermaline and Kelotane still heal pretty fast with this change. Dermaline heals 12u per unit.

KeloDerm is an exploit and just because players like it, it shouldn't stay in the game.

You won't be in medical for an additional 40 minutes because of this change. Healing chems are super effective.

"Since the issue hasn't been complained about before, it's not an issue" isn't an argument and I'm not going to read that wall of text.

Tricord will be unaffected by this change. If you want to make a super medication, mix tricord with dermaline.

[Conspiir]

"Since the issue hasn't been complained about before, it's not an issue" isn't an argument and I'm not going to read that wall of text.

 

Schev's post is equally as important as everyone else's, I ask you to please read it. Some good points are raised, such as the effects on antagonists and another solution of lowering overdose limits. I would hear your opinion on that, please.

[TheSleepyCatmom]

I agree, Schev raised a lot of points that I agree with, such as effect on antagonists and the like, as Conspiir said. Going 'Because the first sentence he said is something untrue to me I don't want to read it' is entirely unfair to him for taking the time to raise valid points.

[Resilynn]

I take serious issue with you openly admitting you’re going to ignore feedback because you don’t like it.

[Butterrobber202]

Yeah what the fuck, they gave you criticism and you are gonna ignore it because you don’t like it?

[BurgerBB]

Okay let's address it.

"Furthermore, if this is supposedly a bug or an exploit, how is it over the course of a few years since the merge to Baycode, this supposed exploit has never been reported on the github as an exploit? Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the community to report bugs or exploits in the game, assuming we give any credit to the theory that it is an exploit at all?"

The above is a red herring (See: Appeal to Tradition) and distracts from the main argument. Just because something hasn't been addressed doesn't mean it's an issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

"Medical has had a very long past of constant nerfing to its effectiveness. Be that due to nerfing mechanics or remapping medical to be inherently suboptimal, these repeated nerfs to the department will not improve the quality of roleplay. The nerfs will drive people away from wanting to play it and..."

Another red herring (See: Slippery Slope). The change has nothing to do with roleplay but to patch out an exploit that makes no sense mechanically or realistically. It uses dummy logic similar to "If I drank one flavor of gatorade, and then drank another flavor of gatorade, I will be hydrated twice as fast!"

On top of this, you have provided 0 evidence to suggest that nerfs or changes make people not want to play medical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

"This is is also a very hamfisted nerf to antagonists that wish to use more effective means of sustaining themselves either through the midst of combat or for first aid to treat themselves after a near-lethal confrontation. I will always dislike survivability nerfs especially when they apply to everyone that isn't an IPC/diona."

If a tree falls down in the forest, and no one is around, is it an antagonist nerf? It's not an antagonist nerf if all the crew are equally affected. The crew has access to kelotane, and antags have access to kelotane. No one will end up dying because of this nerf.

"In previous arguments for why this should be, the PR author has stated they want to make KeloDerm heal even less than what Dermaline heals on its own (that means less than 12 healing per 5 ticks, which is not insignificant). The PR author just wants to make it so that you're forced to adapt to a new style of play, because he views this strategy as an exploit."

Strawmanning. This has nothing to do with me forcing a new style of play. It's plain and simple that I want to just patch out an exploit. I don't care if or how people adapt, I'm just fixing an exploit. This isn't 3D chess where I'm secretly destroying a meta or some shit, it's simply just patching out an exploit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"It's not an exploit, it's an optimal strategy. It's not powergaming, it's just part of the game. But a more interesting way of going about it instead of removing the advantageous nature of it entirely is to still make it usable with consequence. Make it so that chemicals of the same damage healing type still add to an overdose threshold, because even in real life, you shouldn't be taking several different medications.

If you really want to punish chemists or medical doctors for using chemistry to cure all solutions, make overdose limits lower and especially so for combination chemicals. This will still add an interesting consequence of likely having to dialyzes someone you tried to heal to full health so quickly. This will make it so that medical doctors need to be more careful who they speed-heal, and characters that use Kelo-Derm in combat won't get completely nerfed into the dirt for trying to sustain themselves in mid-combat. Instead of removing powerful features from the game, add consequence to that strength to balance it out. Easy!"

Adding shared overdose thresholds has no basis in logic. This isn't about solving powergaming or whatever it is you believe my intentions to be, but to fix faulty logic in the reagent code that allows this in the first place.

This is barely a nerf to medicine. Let's make that absolutely clear. The only two things that this affects is the speed of which someone cures burn wounds.

Before and After:

Dermaline heals 12 burn damage per unit, with a metabolism rate of 0.2 units per second. That means it heals 12/5 units per second (2.4).

Kelotane heals 6 burn damage pet unit, with a metabolism rate of 0.2 units per second. That means it heals 6/5 units per second (1.2).

Combined, it heals 18/5 units per second (3.6).

Absolute worst case scenario someone has 100 burn damage. With DermaTane or whatever it's fucking called, it would take 27 seconds to heal someone. With dermaline it will take 41 seconds.

This is a 14 second difference per 100 damage (1.4 seconds per 10 damage, 0.14 seconds per 1 damage). This is absolutely nothing and can be easily reduced if you're actually a competent doctor (combining with burn kits, cryo, tricordizine).

But sure lets dogpile the person who refused to argue with someone's post which consisted of several fallacies and assume I'm not addressing it because I just don't like it.

[Asheram]

"Furthermore, if this is supposedly a bug or an exploit, how is it over the course of a few years since the merge to Baycode, this supposed exploit has never been reported on the github as an exploit? Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the community to report bugs or exploits in the game, assuming we give any credit to the theory that it is an exploit at all?"

 

The above is a red herring (See: Appeal to Tradition) and distracts from the main argument. Just because something hasn't been addressed doesn't mean it's an issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

I'd argue the point that it's an exploit because it's been in the game for so long that it has become standard practice.

It might be appealing to tradition, but since there have been no attempts at dissuading this practice for years then it's not fixing a bug, it's nerfing a feature.

[Resilynn]

Earlier you said “just because players like it, it shouldn’t stay in the game.”

That’s the greatest argument working against you. I don’t want a hyper realistic game about spacemen and wizards. I add my own realism when I RP, and I think we all, as a community, do a pretty good job with that. I love high RP, really.

But one: in real life, medications are combined for better effectiveness all the time. And two: PRs are exactly about what players enjoy, making the game enjoyable for everyone.

I agree that medical has been nerfed over and over again. We are just trying to keep people in the game so they’re not spending an hour and a half ghosting. Surgery taking 2 minutes isn’t realistic either, but no one wants to sit under anesthetic for the entire round. You should be focusing on contributing to the game: adding fun mechanics, changing things up, not on limiting players and their choices and their roles.

All I see this PR accomplishing is giving chemists less choice and giving players less survivability for the sake of additional realism that nobody asked for and most players seem to be telling you they don’t want.

[BurgerBB]

Earlier you said “just because players like it, it shouldn’t stay in the game.”

That’s the greatest argument working against you. I don’t want a hyper realistic game about spacemen and wizards. I add my own realism when I RP, and I think we all, as a community, do a pretty good job with that. I love high RP, really.

But one: in real life, medications are combined for better effectiveness all the time. And two: PRs are exactly about what players enjoy, making the game enjoyable for everyone.

I agree that medical has been nerfed over and over again. We are just trying to keep people in the game so they’re not spending an hour and a half ghosting. Surgery taking 2 minutes isn’t realistic either, but no one wants to sit under anesthetic for the entire round. You should be focusing on contributing to the game: adding fun mechanics, changing things up, not on limiting players and their choices and their roles.

All I see this PR accomplishing is giving chemists less choice and giving players less survivability for the sake of additional realism that nobody asked for and most players seem to be telling you they don’t want.

 

Telling me that most players don't want something based on feedback given in these threads and OOC means nothing to me anymore considering that it has been proven over and over again that the forums is not representative of the community. THe forums are useful for collecting ideas and not determining whether or not a project should be accepted or not.

[Snakebittenn]

It is a difference of a few seconds. Nobody is going to remain in medical forever just because of this PR.

[TheSleepyCatmom]

Combining with Tricordrazine makes little sense in your argument anyway, you're making stacked meds not work together. Tricordrazine does all damage types, which means it won't stack with Dermaline OR Kelotane in terms of burn damage healing.

Unless, of course, you're ONLY nerfing Keloderm, in which case why? You're only giving more reason to spam the use of cryocells along with medicating. It may just be my failure to understand here, but how in any way would a medication like Tricordrazine stack with Burn Treatment Medications when they both do the same thing, although Tricordrazine is minor?

In fact, how would Cryo aid along with burn medications, as they both heal the same damage types, right? I just don't see the point.

[Resilynn]

Telling me that most players don't want something based on feedback given in these threads and OOC means nothing to me anymore considering that it has been proven over and over again that the forums is not representative of the community. THe forums are useful for collecting ideas and not determining whether or not a project should be accepted or not.

 

 

 

So let's get this right. The forums is the place to post, but feedback on the forums means nothing to you?

[BurgerBB]

Telling me that most players don't want something based on feedback given in these threads and OOC means nothing to me anymore considering that it has been proven over and over again that the forums is not representative of the community. THe forums are useful for collecting ideas and not determining whether or not a project should be accepted or not.

 

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So let's get this right. The forums is the place to post, but feedback on the forums means nothing to you?

 

No.

If you, as a player, are telling me that other players don't want something, is meaningless. Giving a reason why, and depending on that reason, is meaningful. 1 million people could say that they don't like something, 1 million people could say that they do like something, it means nothing to me because neither of those things improve upon the final idea.