BurgerBB Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 BYOND Key: BurgerBB Game ID: bXr-dfy5 Player Byond Key: Butterrobber202, DasFox, Bauser Staff involved: TheDocOct Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, TheDocOct told everyone to chill in OOC and closed the ticket. Approximate Date/Time: November 21st, 2018 Reason for complaint: This is very awkward to make since I'm staff but I feel that this complaint is needed. I genuinely feel that when I engage with these three users, they're not here to contribute to a conversation, but instead, to benefit their own desires. While it may be easy to say that all of this is just friendly banter, I believe that there is a fine line that exists that marks the threshold between friendly banter and being a dick. While developers are held to a higher standard and should ignore attempts at instigation, I strongly feel that context should be taken into account before judging such a thing, such as the frequency of a single person attempting to cause issues. Unfortunately, I personally have very little recorded evidence of these three users actively causing issues except for the logs. The beauty of being a sane human being is that you don't take a screenshots of someone every time you insult you; only when it is the last straw. I believe that now is the last straw. The round just started and I didn't feel that motivated to play as it was the morning and I had projects to work on, so I made a remark that I shouldn't have. OOC: BurgerBB: I legitimately don't know why I joined. OOC: Bauser: Muscle memory? OOC: BurgerBB: if the antags this round are garbage im cryoing OOC: BurgerBB: *dab OOC: Tbear13: as god intended OOC: Butterrobber202: burger thats you every round OOC: Butterrobber202: "I have serious complaints about this round" OOC: BurgerBB: I've never cryo'd before. OOC: DasFox: That's. Literally a lie. OOC: BurgerBB: I mean due to bad antags OOC: Butterrobber202: >10 PR's show up nerfing X OOC: DasFox: ^^^ OOC: BurgerBB: Are you here to contribute something or are you just going to throw shade needlessly. OOC: Butterrobber202: yes OOC: Butterrobber202: my contribution is shade OOC: DasFox: You were throwing shade too my guy. 'Im just going to cryo if that antags are garbage'. OOC: DasFox: Dont talk shit then bitch about getting shit talked to. OOC: BurgerBB: I throwed shade on a possibility. OOC: BurgerBB: Not on a person. I basically said the equivalent of "I will be mad if the antags are bad." and that was received by these two users as me preemptively talking shit about the antags, (who've done nothing yet, 8 minutes in) and justification for starting a triade about how I'm an awful person. OOC: DasFox: This is also the internet and noone gives a fuck. OOC: DasFox: So w/e. OOC: BurgerBB: Wew. OOC: BurgerBB: Then perhaps you should stop giving a fuck about what I say if you don't think that politeness matters when bringing up concerns to someone. I got a little annoyed here when they said the equivalent of "I don't care" when I told them that I was not meaning to insult a person. OOC: Tbear13: be nice my dudes OOC: BurgerBB: I am. OOC: Tbear13: just a reminder OOC: DasFox: 'nice' is relative based on the person, so. OOC: BurgerBB: I'm just telling people that I'm not going to listen to people's concerns regarding code or my very own concerns if they act hostile. OOC: DasFox: 'hostile'. OOC: Tbear13: but my opinion is the only onee that matters fox OOC: BurgerBB: I said I would cryo if the antags were garbage. OOC: Bauser: So, if you cryo, you're throwing shade on people OOC: DasFox: ^ OOC: Bauser: multiple people probably OOC: BurgerBB: Yes. OOC: BurgerBB: Notice how I have not cryo'd. OOC: DasFox: IT's been eight minutes. I'm taking time out of my day to respond to them saying that I didn't mean to insult anyone and attempted to explain the rationale of me saying what I said. I thought it would be necessary to explain the logic of what I said, and argue against the logic of what they're saying, considering I didn't want to offend anyone. OOC: Mwhit030: infiltration confirmed OOC: DasFox: RIP. OOC: BurgerBB: "I will complain if the antags are bad." OOC: ParadoxSpace: all 3 of you are gay tbh OOC: Tbear13: ,g thralling burger and telling him to not cryo so we can malf OOC: DasFox: You're not wrong. OOC: BurgerBB: Is not throwing shade. OOC: Bauser: I have a hunch that you'll complain even if the antags aren't bad The solution begins to bubble. OOC: DasFox: ^ OOC: BurgerBB: Well that is your opinion. At this point I'm starting to realise that just perhaps that these people aren't here to be friendly and rather soapbox about me and issues regarding me. I should've stopped here, but I didn't because I'm not very smart. OOC: DasFox: You complain to complain, same as everyone else. OOC: DasFox: Just a fact of life. OOC: Butterrobber202: actually its a hunch burger OOC: BurgerBB: I do not. OOC: Butterrobber202: owo OOC: BurgerBB: If I complained just to complain then I wouldn't actively be trying to improve the server. OOC: DasFox: That's not exactly what complaining means, no. OOC: DasFox: You can improve something and complain about it. OOC: Hocka: I can see where this one might be going, oh boy OOC: Bauser: I think the best way to improve the server is to let Schev be Captain Lyakushka Dor-Duran every round OOC: Butterrobber202: hey burger, remember that thing we're never going to let you live down? OOC: Butterrobber202: coughs in beef jerky heart attack OOC: BurgerBB: I'm just trying to help you guys. OOC: Butterrobber202: that does not change the fact that whole update was hilarious OOC: Butterrobber202: the bodies OOC: DasFox: ^ OOC: BurgerBB: By saying I literally won't be listening to you if you show hostility. OOC: Butterrobber202: horrifying at the time OOC: Butterrobber202: but OOC: Butterrobber202: funny now OOC: BurgerBB: If you want your complaints to be heard, don't be a dick. OOC: Bauser: What if they're hostile because your attempts to help are flagrantly unhelpful I believe I think this is the strongest paragraph in argument that these three people aren't here to be nice. I'm not asking the admins or players to enforce a nanny state and say nothing in order to not trigger anyone, but when you consider their previous actions on the forums, in ooc, and on discord, I think that this is becoming a serious issue. I'm also noticing that in this community "You complain just to complain!" is an non-argument that's disguised as an argument to dissuade anyone from voicing their opinions. I feel is a huge concern in this community, and really in general, reality. Instead of people arguing points, it's just attacking the person making the complaint while attempting to explain that "No, you're actually in the wrong!" when you bring up concerns about people misbehaving during arguments and justifying hostility because of it. At this point the argument dies down and the hostility is attempted to be revitalize using more hostility. OOC: BurgerBB: I don't listen to aggressive people. OOC: FreshRefreshments: Burger, im going to fucking murder you for nothing. Are you prepared for this death, little man? OOC: VTCobaltblood: but i was aggressive burger and now you're responding to me OOC: VTCobaltblood: :^) OOC: Stationcrab: whoa OOC: DasFox: Better ditch the server man, half of us are 'aggressive'. OOC: BurgerBB: Why would I ditch the server? OOC: ParadoxSpace: can you guys be a little less bitchy OOC: Menown: i'm on it. OOC: ParadoxSpace: being bitchy and sarcastic is not a personality OOC: BurgerBB: I'm literally dev. OOC: Butterrobber202: paradox OOC: Butterrobber202: send queen nudezzz OOC: Menown: hi paradox OOC: BurgerBB: I literally have like 5 ongoing projects. OOC: ParadoxSpace: hi butter i need to ask a favor of you OOC: DasFox: We don't really care, Burger. OOC: Butterrobber202: hi OOC: Bauser: Rank in the server doesn't necessarily have a causal link with a willingness to ditch it OOC: DasFox: Again, if you can't see sarcasm. Most of the bad stuff stops here. DasFox when on to say that no one insulted me and that the argument was my fault because I started it. At this point I ahelped and just stopped talking in OOC. I'm just finding it a little concerns that these 3 people are known to cause issues. Even Bauser mentions that he's banned from the discord and forums, and the only place he's not banned is on the server itself. I've been told that DasFox and Butterrobber also have a history of hostility.
Scheveningen Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 I can attest for the historical hostility of Bauser and Dasfox. Less so for Butterrobber, as he is generally 'chill' in most circumstances and otherwise just a comedian. It's not unbelievable that he'd go too far though. If yet another complaint is what's required to handle the former two's horrible attitudes for good, then so be it.
TheOrleans Posted November 22, 2018 Posted November 22, 2018 I can't speak about Bauser or Butterrobber, but if I am allowed to say something about DasFox is that, in fact, his attitude is awful, both in the Server and in Discord, so, if this is going to help to fix this situation... I support it. Or at least, DasFox, please, notice that your attitude is bad, and think about it, I think that, with a bit of work and effort, it won't be a problem in the future!
TheSleepyCatmom Posted November 22, 2018 Posted November 22, 2018 If me being overly sarcastic is considered 'hostile', I'm not sure what you consider outright abusive. I even clarified a few times, even after the fact when it all died down, that I was being overly sarcastic. And yes, I realize that text doesn't convey this well, as people stated. In the end, my intent wasn't malicious. If I had legitimate problem with burger, I'd make a complaint here. As he did. Regardless of prior action, understandably as I've been relatively aggressive in the past, I wasn't spoken to about anything this round. If you ahelped it and it was deemed problematic, why wasn't it taken care of in round outside of a 'chill out'? It was the beginning of a round, there was time for someone to talk to me. Sure, me saying 'noone cares' was honest. You pulled the 'I'm staff, I have X things going on' card to dissuade a sarcastic remark. About leaving the server, no less. I thought that, at the very least, would've been obvious that it was made in jest. If I went around telling people to leave the server honestly, I wouldn't still be here. If I wanted to be 'aggressive' to you, I'd do so one on one with legitimate complaints and not simply attack you in OOC, with several other people. I'm not a savage, regardless of what people may think. I can't speak for Bauser, or Butterrober. I don't intend to either, my actions were mine. And you're free to talk to me about it if you want, via commenting here or PMing me on discord. I'm sure half of discord can point you to my key. At any rate, I've said my piece.
Bauser Posted November 23, 2018 Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) I have a history of hostility. This isn't it. I didn't even think I was a part of that conversation. I've only got seven messages in that huge log (none of which break any rules or are antagonizing), and he omitted the only two others, wherein 1) I explained my comment about being "flagrantly unhelpful" was only hypothetical and 2) the comment about rank and willingness to leave the community was about me (since I was banned from both forum and Discord and still wanted to stick around). My only comment which could even be misconstrued as combative ("I have a hunch you're going to complain either way") stems from the fact that Burger started the conversation by stating his expectation that the antagonists would ruin the round, which I felt was needlessly hostile towards the players in general. So, yeah. I'm not a part of this incident. I already took my bruises for bullying Burger. EDIT: If I was being hostile, you would know. Everybody would know. Ask Schev. Ask Goret. Ask Coalf. I'm working on that. But none of that is here. Edited November 23, 2018 by Bauser
Butterrobber202 Posted November 23, 2018 Posted November 23, 2018 oh. Well, before I get started, sorry Burger. Into it. And, by the towards the end of the shown logs, I had already completely dropped the subject. I won't deny that I poked fun at you, and I should have stopped when I saw you getting upset, but I don't think I was being hostile. I still think you're a good dev, you just make a lot of controversial PRs, and the Food PR just had a really funny effect in retrospect.
BurgerBB Posted November 23, 2018 Author Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, TheSleepyCatmom said: If me being overly sarcastic is considered 'hostile', I'm not sure what you consider outright abusive. I even clarified a few times, even after the fact when it all died down, that I was being overly sarcastic. And yes, I realize that text doesn't convey this well, as people stated. In the end, my intent wasn't malicious. If I had legitimate problem with burger, I'd make a complaint here. As he did. Regardless of prior action, understandably as I've been relatively aggressive in the past, I wasn't spoken to about anything this round. If you ahelped it and it was deemed problematic, why wasn't it taken care of in round outside of a 'chill out'? It was the beginning of a round, there was time for someone to talk to me. Sure, me saying 'noone cares' was honest. You pulled the 'I'm staff, I have X things going on' card to dissuade a sarcastic remark. About leaving the server, no less. I thought that, at the very least, would've been obvious that it was made in jest. If I went around telling people to leave the server honestly, I wouldn't still be here. If I wanted to be 'aggressive' to you, I'd do so one on one with legitimate complaints and not simply attack you in OOC, with several other people. I'm not a savage, regardless of what people may think. I can't speak for Bauser, or Butterrober. I don't intend to either, my actions were mine. And you're free to talk to me about it if you want, via commenting here or PMing me on discord. I'm sure half of discord can point you to my key. At any rate, I've said my piece. It's very easy to dismiss a bad attitude and a bad situation with "I was just being sarcastic" and not take responsibility for something you said. It's much hard when you were frequently being rude and disrespectful throughout the encounter. It's quite literally on par with the "I was pretending to be retarded" defense when your behavior causes issues. And just because you weren't directly spoken to doesn't mean there was a problem. I theorize that the admin at the time didn't really want to deal with anything given how they simply told everyone in ooc to chill and then close the ticket without saying another word, but I digress. As for the "I pulled the staff" and "I have things going on", you are seriously taking that out of context. OOC: BurgerBB: I don't listen to aggressive people. OOC: FreshRefreshments: Burger, im going to fucking murder you for nothing. Are you prepared for this death, little man? OOC: VTCobaltblood: but i was aggressive burger and now you're responding to me OOC: VTCobaltblood: :^) OOC: Stationcrab: whoa OOC: DasFox: Better ditch the server man, half of us are 'aggressive'. OOC: BurgerBB: Why would I ditch the server? OOC: ParadoxSpace: can you guys be a little less bitchy OOC: Menown: i'm on it. OOC: ParadoxSpace: being bitchy and sarcastic is not a personality OOC: BurgerBB: I'm literally dev. OOC: Butterrobber202: paradox OOC: Butterrobber202: send queen nudezzz OOC: Menown: hi paradox OOC: BurgerBB: I literally have like 5 ongoing projects. OOC: ParadoxSpace: hi butter i need to ask a favor of you OOC: DasFox: We don't really care, Burger. OOC: Butterrobber202: hi OOC: Bauser: Rank in the server doesn't necessarily have a causal link with a willingness to ditch it OOC: DasFox: Again, if you can't see sarcasm. For some reason you mentioned "Better ditch the server man, half of us are 'aggressive'."' and that could either of meant that you thought that I was planning to leave the server, you wanted me to leave the server, or you're referencing some other garbage that problem-people commonly use to get me to leave (spoiler alert, they're all banned/gone). To dispel whatever the hell you said, I mentioned that it would be stupid to leave given that I have several projects in progress as well as that I had a dev position on the server. This isn't me saying "Unga bunga, I'm a dev, listen to me treat me with respect." or "I HAVE THINGS GOING ON BE NICE TO ME.", those were just points in another argument. And to reiterate on another point, again I can see you saying something stupid and then going "I'm just being sarcastic!" when called out for you behavior or whatever you said and then went "I don't see how you can see sarcasm!" I don't know how you see this as an issue. Edited November 23, 2018 by BurgerBB
Garnascus Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 You're all being pretty dumb here. Burger you did kinda start this. You threw shade initially. If you're speeding to work you have a million reasons for why you need to speed. If someone cuts you off on the highway also speeding you'll be like "fuck that guy what the fuck theres a speed limit asshole". Of course this does not excuse the behavior of the others. Bauser you where fine but we dont need you to unsheathe your katana in this thread with comments like "if i was actually hostile you would know..." come on now. Dasfox.... Why are you the way you are? Why would you even make a comment like "this is the internet nobody gives a fuck?" well i give a fuck and i think you're being incredibly rude. You're easily the worst contender here. Butterrober. You apologized which i appreciate as i assume its genuine.
Scheveningen Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) Quote For some reason you mentioned "Better ditch the server man, half of us are 'aggressive'."' and that could either of meant that you thought that I was planning to leave the server, you wanted me to leave the server, or you're referencing some other garbage that problem-people commonly use to get me to leave (spoiler alert, they're all banned/gone). To dispel whatever the hell you said, I mentioned that it would be stupid to leave given that I have several projects in progress as well as that I had a dev position on the server. This isn't me saying "Unga bunga, I'm a dev, listen to me treat me with respect." or "I HAVE THINGS GOING ON BE NICE TO ME.", those were just points in another argument. I've had similar encounters with Dasfox in the past. If I were petty enough, and if someone thought themselves superior enough to other people that they think they can get away with suggesting other people to leave the community, I'd go after that individual and seek their permanent ban from the server. But I'd personally pursue that resolution purely because that attitude is horrible to have in any community, and deserves to be removed just as well as they'd try to do unto others. It's the only fair resolution coming out of this. How is it that there are people 20 years younger than you that get along better with people in general, @TheSleepyCatmom I've no idea what's with you that gives you this sense of self-righteousness and entitlement to decide to go after people in OOC like you do. You should be ashamed. Edited November 28, 2018 by Scheveningen
TheSleepyCatmom Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 Age doesn't really have much to do with how I act. Beyond that, I wasn't at all taking the conversation seriously. If I intended to tell someone legitimately to leave the community, I wouldn't bother doing it in OOC. Like I said before, if I had a legitimate issue with Burger, I wouldn't go at them in OOC with them. I tread the line a lot, even if unintentionally at times. I step over it at times, too. Some of these times I'm made aware of by the person, and I'll step back. Other times like now, an argument just kept going on. I'm argumentative, I'll argue about anything ranging from how letters look to the sky being blue, even sarcastically. I find it fun and it's how I get through my days. Burger took offense to things I made in jest. It happens. I toed a line and went over it. That's entirely my fault, and I'll live up to that. At the time it just amused me to say it, due to 'I don't deal with aggressive people.' This is all over taking things I said literally instead of not. For that I'll apologize, sure. I wasn't clear enough with how I worded it maybe, or maybe it wasn't the best topic to be joking about. It'd have been nice to know he was legitimately upset about this before a complaint, as I forgot about the entire interaction the next round and for the next while until this was brought up in discord. Anyway if I reply slowly to this, I'm really sorry. I'm stuck to a phone for the next few days and it doesn't quite like the new forums all that well.
Scheveningen Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 You realize that this community is not like some constant Roast Battle Royale Night, so implying people should leave the community over whatever petty toxicity you feel like slinging at the odd player for the day is 100% unacceptable, and thus "it was just a joke" is never acceptable of a justification? Why even do it in the first place? I find it fun and it's how I get through my days. Ah. That is why. Insulting people and telling people they should GTFO with absolutely no consideration for the individual's thoughts and well-being on an issue is the mark of a sociopath. This community absolutely needs none of that here.
DronzTheWolf Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Scheveningen said: Ah. That is why. Insulting people and telling people they should GTFO with absolutely no consideration for the individual's thoughts and well-being on an issue is the mark of a sociopath. This community absolutely needs none of that here. Alright there armchair psych, no need to be accusing people of sociopathy.
DronzTheWolf Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 Now I'll put in my bit. DasFox, specifically, because they're the only one who I have a lot of contact with. I think y'all are failing to acknowledge the amount of change from their previous behavior they've shown. Sure, they've made statements that could be considered hurtful in jest but they're still a good roleplayer and and from my experience they're not ill-meaning to burger. It's banter, and even then, it's not the worst banter I've seen on the server either. I think you're all being a bit too rough because you're too caught up on their previous behavior to notice the shift to their more mild current behavior.
Scheveningen Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, DronzTheWolf said: I think y'all are failing to acknowledge the amount of change from their previous behavior they've shown. You mean no change at all, Dronz? How is this indicative DasFox has in any way changed from the core problems inherent to their behavior? All it sounds like from you is that "You should've seen them X months ago", which is a certainly poor justification for how this turned out now. Their behavior from months ago is being brought up to highlight how the player themselves has not actually put forward any care or effort into being less of an inflammatory person. Quote OOC: DasFox: Better ditch the server man, half of us are 'aggressive'. I don't buy this idea that shitty behavior can be acceptable if "it's not as bad as it used to be." That is not a justification for the here and now, nor is it a justification for discipline to be light because of it. 14 minutes ago, DronzTheWolf said: but they're still a good roleplayer and and from my experience they're not ill-meaning to burger. I also don't buy this idea that being a good roleplayer, or a good coder, or good at any job somehow excuses you from having to be polite and good to other people. That's purely an elitist mindset, and it reflects terribly on everyone else involved when this is an actual argument trying to defend these cases of unwarranted toxicity. That is not a justification for the here and now, nor is it a justification for discipline to be light because of it. The very people who talk about telling people to remove themselves from the community should, ironically, themselves be removed. There is absolutely no reason "GTFO from the server" should ever be an accepted thing for any community member to say. It is an attitude that shows one community member is actively attempting to make others feel unwelcome and shitty in this community, and it should be dealt with harshly. Edited November 28, 2018 by Scheveningen
DronzTheWolf Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scheveningen said: The very people who talk about telling people to remove themselves from the community should, ironically, themselves be removed. There is absolutely no reason "GTFO from the server" should ever be an accepted thing for any community member to say. It is an attitude that shows one community member is actively attempting to make others feel unwelcome and shitty in this community, and it should be dealt with harshly. I'd argue that accusations of mental illness are far worse than a joking/ironic "GTFO" but that's just me.
Scheveningen Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) Read what I said. It was not calling the person a sociopath, but highlighting their justification as the kind a sociopath would use for their own actions in harassing other community members. It's far worse to allow this to go on without being identified as a problem. Edited November 28, 2018 by Scheveningen
DronzTheWolf Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 That's the problem itself. This isn't an issue, I fail to see anywhere DasFox has gone too far but then again I've had worse jokes leveled at me in person and I know a joke's a joke. I've seen staff say far worse things and have no real backlash, but I'd be getting off-topic with that. I won't say that DasFox is perfect, but I think that anything more than a warning or maybe a ban for a few days is a bit overkill. I just don't see how this is much of an issue. That and I have no personal vendetta against anyone here.
BurgerBB Posted November 29, 2018 Author Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) On 11/28/2018 at 12:49 AM, Garnascus said: You're all being pretty dumb here. Burger you did kinda start this. You threw shade initially. If you're speeding to work you have a million reasons for why you need to speed. If someone cuts you off on the highway also speeding you'll be like "fuck that guy what the fuck theres a speed limit asshole". Of course this does not excuse the behavior of the others. Bauser you where fine but we dont need you to unsheathe your katana in this thread with comments like "if i was actually hostile you would know..." come on now. Dasfox.... Why are you the way you are? Why would you even make a comment like "this is the internet nobody gives a fuck?" well i give a fuck and i think you're being incredibly rude. You're easily the worst contender here. Butterrober. You apologized which i appreciate as i assume its genuine. I don't understand how shade was thrown and how that example accurately describes the situation. Saying "I will cryo if the antags are bad." on a secret round at minute 0 is a dumb comment but not throwing shade. A better example would be me saying out loud "If there are bad drivers on the way to work I'm going to lose it." and a neighbor using that as an excuse to insult me. Edited November 29, 2018 by BurgerBB
Garnascus Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 Well i mean, put yourself in the shoes of the antag. Its just unneeded pressure. "i will cryo if you guys suck" essentially. Its just really pessimistic and of course it does not excuse the actions of the others.
Garnascus Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 Right, in closing i will not be banning anyone as a result of this complaint. I am however going to note the severity of the individual parties actions. The worst being dasfox. I am not saying this to threaten you. I am saying that i will permanently ban you until the heat death of the universe if you show this kind of attitude again. If someone is being a butt just ahelp and we will deal with it. I discussed this with Doc and she agrees with that bans do not need to be doled out. Burger, I promise im not blaming the victim here. The sum of your "fault" here is but a few grains of sand. All that i ask is next try to empathize with how your words can be taken by the actual antags in the round if they see what you said in OOC. Even so this absolutely does not excuse the abuse thrown your way. Bauser, same warning dasfox has gotten. "i was being sarcastic" is a defense that will only work so much. Butterrobber, Already said my peace on you. I expect your apology is sincere and i encourage burger to take it as such.
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