Updating clone procedures

[TrickingTrapster]

Yeah. So, let me get out of the way first, combat in SS13 sucks and murder centric antagonists suck. What sucks even harder is when you die because of stupid things like that, and then oops nobody decided to play the rarely played psychiatrist at that moment so now your character has been taken out of the round with no (legal) way to get back in. 

You can argue "oh just play another character" but that's like saying "oh I just ripped up your favorite drawing just draw a new one". I picked that character to play and have a good time, and now the entire round is ruined because someone decided they wanted to be a douchebag as an antag. No, I won't pick another character because if I wanted to play those characters I'd have picked them over this one. And it would be one thing if there was no one playing medical at all (in which case, antags should take that into account and not go on a murder spree) but when there's like 6 people in medical and you can't be cloned because none of them is playing one specific role, that's just utterly dumb.

Long story short, please update requirements for cloning so regular medical workers can do it without requiring a psychiatrist. I know it gives them something to do but what's the point if they're not played anyway. All that happens is that more fun gets ruined for players that are killed by bad antaggery. And let's not even start about what happens if the psychiatrist were to be involved in the murder.

[Soultheif96]

I will speak from a medical standpoint. I hated cloning for the sheer reason of needing to put in 10-20 mins of effort involving RP between doctor and patient while tending to their traumas.

If I had the option to keep the clone asleep for at least five minutes, I would be able to fully accomplish crystal therapy, medication, and surgery all at once. I choose not to because it is powergaming and is inconsiderate of game mechanics.

So as CMO, I always enforce the “No cloning without psychiatrist” policy because I do not want to lose a doctor to a clone. Additionally, I want the clone to at least have a chance to fully RP out Doctor/Patient stuff with someone suited for that role, a psychiatrist.

I understand that people do not like the idea of no cloning, I just do not want to waste your time and ruin your RP over an understaffed/busy team. 

Additionally, I do not allow cloning on code red/delta because it is very draining, and I will not change my mind on that.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Soultheif96

[GreenBoi]

It's not an actual IC policy, it's more of a player policy Heads enforce for the purpose of not tiring themselves off.

 

Also, most non-psychiatrist mains don't even know how to cure most traumas....even though they icly should.

[TrickingTrapster]

Don't worry about ruined RP, that already happened the moment the antag decided they wanted to do a murder. The annoying part is that you either get literally removed from the round against your will for 20+ minutes and then have to play a character you didn't plan on playing, or you wait to get cloned but it never happens because of a single-slot role that nobody seems to want to play. The problem is players being removed from the round against their will and not even getting a remote chance of going back in with the character they want. (Because doing absolutely nothing while praying for someone to go a slot that is rarely played is a lot of fun isn't it)

[MattAtlas]

The story the game tells is not about your character and your character alone, but about the station as a whole.

Telling a story requires sacrifice. You are inciting people to believe the opposite of what they should be. A story with no tension isn't what SS13 is about, nor does it make for an interesting one. You might like to chairRP, for lack of a better term, but you can't expect antagonists to conform to your weird "nobody should die" ideas.

Cloning should die in a ditch and I agree there.

Also nothing prevents MDs or surgeons from cloning other than CMO players. The issue is a mechanical issue, so this feels more like a "me no like antag" vent.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Medical mains almost always trust the technology to cure traumas and are baffled when people rp this being insufficient. Integrating chaplains and counselors and generally encouraging bedside manners will drastically improve post cloning situations. On top of this, traumas are really finnicky and should be streamlined to be more intuitive.

[Doxxmedearly]

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Don't worry about ruined RP, that already happened the moment the antag decided they wanted to do a murder.

Are you... mad that antagonists do antaggy actions, up to and including murder? If that ruins your RP, then you should probably just play on extended.

This entire suggestion comes off as entitled and whiny. If you don't want to be a target of an antag, don't play rounds with antags. Nobody owes you cloning because you're upset your character was taken out of the round. What are antags supposed to do at this point? If they murder, they're douchebags. If they don't, they're shit peacetags. Either way they get blasted by people who are mad they didn't mindread and consider their feelings and play the round how they wanted it to go.

People die in antag rounds. That's the story of that round. Sometimes you're left alone entirely, sometimes you die quickly. Sometimes it's a bad antag who ganks you and then gets admin action; yeah that doesn't fix that specific round fort you as the victim, but.... well, that's too bad? Things happen.

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Cloning should die in a ditch and I agree there.

Strongly agreed.

[Faris]

Conflict and tension is part of the gameplay. While I'm not an advocate of cloning removal, it should be a somewhat cumbersome process where medical are required to prioritize things and who to clone. 

Cloning has never been a right to every player, it's a privilege sometimes given when the circumstances of the round permit it. 

The only times a death is an issue if it's in a violation of the rules, which is resolved in it's own way.

[TrickingTrapster]

It's one thing when a murder supposedly makes a story for the RP, but when people who log on to PLAY THE GAME get FORCIBLY removed from it without a say in it, that's not driving a story, that's a dumb mechanic. If I wanted to fight antags, I'd play security. It's the same reaosn I hate getting forced into an antag role because if I wanted to play that antag I'd have the box checked. And I actually like peacetags. I utterly hate the notion that combat is apparently required to make a good antag. It's not and the hate for peacetags needs to die instead. Cloning is a good thing to not have people forcibly removed from the round. Remember that rounds can take 2+ hours and you actually need to set time aside for it, and you can be in the mindset to play a certain character but OOPS some dickwaffle decided to play a murderbone shit changeling and now you can go fuck off for 1.5 hours and do jack shit.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You sign up to die as part of the game when you play. Its not seperate from the experience. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Not irl tho

[TrickingTrapster]

It should be seperate. I log in to RP and develop my character, not to facilitate the antag's story. The one thing, the literal one thing I hate most in life is being bored. And guess what happens when your character is dead? Yeah, it's super boring. The antags should not be required to murder to be considered "good". Which is what I'm hearing from a lot of people. Peacetags are great and should be the standard, not the exception imo.

[GreenBoi]

Antags aren't required to murder to be considered good, but sometimes they do to be good. If you happen to get murdered by one or the result of their action, shrug it off and live with it unless it truly was horribly escalated.

 

Playing a Secret round is signing a contract that says "Yes, I accept that I can have my entire round turned by an antag, or cut from the round entirely, and I am okay with that", if you aren't okay with it, you can observe first, see what the antag's gimmick is and then join, or play on Extended, or play when you're pretty sure it's a peace antag, or play Visitor where antags really won't bother you unless you witness one of their antagonistic actions firsthand.

 

Literally, as Visitor, no one cares about you except maybe Cultists or Vamp, and Ninjas can steal people with actual access- like the other interns.

[Faris]

 

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It's one thing when a murder supposedly makes a story for the RP, but when people who log on to PLAY THE GAME get FORCIBLY removed from it without a say in it, that's not driving a story, that's a dumb mechanic.

Sometimes thing we don't particularly want happen during the round. That's not necessarily bad. We don't particularly wish or plan for accidents, injuries and so on, not everything happens with our permission nor does it need it. You join a round with the understanding you are not the only moving part, there are other moving parts, these parts can work together, clash each other, ignore each other or even be indifferent. 

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And I actually like peacetags. I utterly hate the notion that combat is apparently required to make a good antag.

People have preferences and opinions. I'm indifferent on either, both can drive the narrative. 

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Cloning is a good thing to not have people forcibly removed from the round.

Cloning does not stop people from removing you from the round. It's a tool that permits the returning of certain characters. It does not stop people from destroying corpses. It does not stop people from destroying cloning lab. It does not stop people from destroying any number of things that is necessary for the cloning process.

 

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you can be in the mindset to play a certain character but OOPS some dickwaffle decided to play a murderbone shit changeling and now you can go fuck off for 1.5 hours and do jack shit.

We have round types that do not have antagonists. We also have rules, which you enforce, that covers improper escalation and unwarranted murders. 

Anyway, this is not much of a suggestion and more you ranting about the events of a round, having a kneejerk reaction in making this and sprinkled with a couple of insults towards a certain group of people based on their opinions, preferences and play style, none of which are necessarily a rule violation.

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 I log in to RP and develop my character, not to facilitate the antag's story.

You are all part of the same story. You log in to roleplay, people are roleplaying in the same environment as you are. This mentality is dangerous because inversely it means you can join as an antagonist and people can just completely ignore you.

[Doxxmedearly]

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And I actually like peacetags. I utterly hate the notion that combat is apparently required to make a good antag. It's not and the hate for peacetags needs to die instead.

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The antags should not be required to murder to be considered "good".

I agree.

However, peacetag is not the only way to play. But right now it seems you're doing what you hate to see but reversed- you're calling for antags to play peacetag only, otherwise it's shit because they removed someone from a round with murder. You need to realize that not everyone wants to play this game how you do, and it's a community-based RP platform. Sometimes rounds don't go how you want. Players who want murder get peacetags. People who want peace deal with murder. You literally cannot please everyone in a 20-40 player game and if a round went poorly for you but everyone else enjoyed it, well, that's literally how community-based games go, and that sucks.

Play extended. Alternatively, accept that if antags exist, you may be a target, and that's not a bad thing. You won't get to drive your story every round. RP is collaborative and this happens. I don't understand how you could be here for so long and not understand this.

The fact that medical doesn't clone often isn't a problem. Nobody is owed cloning and from an RP standpoint it should be a strictly-monitored, traumatic, and difficult process. The trauma system blows but relaxing cloning standards isn't really something that's necessary right now IMO. Especially since the reasons presented are pretty weak.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Doxxmedearly

[geeves]

40 minutes ago, TrickingTrapster said:

It's the same reaosn I hate getting forced into an antag role because if I wanted to play that antag I'd have the box checked.

This got changed to not happen ages ago. Unironically, thanks Burger.

[TrickingTrapster]

I'm not trying to relax the standards specifically, just not make it happening hinge on one single role slot that is rarely played. And playing purely extended is not an option since only one in like 13 games that I'm on to play is actually extended without an event. And geeves, what I meant was like cultist conversion and things like that.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, TrickingTrapster said:

I log in to RP and develop my character, not to facilitate the antag's story. 

Play a single player game

[Doxxmedearly]

2 hours ago, TrickingTrapster said:

I'm not trying to relax the standards specifically, just not make it happening hinge on one single role slot that is rarely played. And playing purely extended is not an option since only one in like 13 games that I'm on to play is actually extended without an event. And geeves, what I meant was like cultist conversion and things like that.

While I agree it's frustrating that you need a specific job to be filled for something in a round, that's the nature of the station. Science needs mining. Orders need cargo. Robotics needs RnD. Staff changes require HoP. IPCs/Borgs require robotics for repairs. Etc. We make do in these situations, and sadly without a properly staffed med bay, we must make do without cloning. This isn't a terrible thing, as nobody should depend on it (Staffing aside, Abo raises a ton of points on how cloning could be prevented, and that's not even exhaustive).

There's legitimate reasons to take a hard look at cloning. "Antags kill people" is not one of them, which is why I'm being so critical of this thread. Maybe we should revisit the trauma system which drove away many psych players in the first place, or ask ourselves if there are other reasons WHY the role isn't often played.

And I certainly agree that forced conversion to an antag is incredibly annoying. But, again, that's the nature of the round. I hate vamp and I hate cult, and I hate playing those roles, and I totally get where you're coming from with being forced into them. But again, the round isn't just about what I want, and I try to make the most of it (barring shit antags like wordless thrallers). If you don't care about the antag's story, or other players' stories, why should anyone care about your character's?

I honestly wonder if Aurora is the correct server for you.

[TrickingTrapster]

I did not say I did not care about antag or other player's stories. However, if that story includes removing me from the round and literally prevent me from playing the game for at least 20 minutes is when I draw the line. I get on to play, not wait in deadchat. Observing is boring and only serves to make me want to play the game instead. "Oh but 20 minutes isn't that much" It's a sixth of a minimum round. It's just as annoying as 90 second respawn timers in MOBAs. You can't contribute anything, you can only watch your respawn timer slooooooowly ticking down and you get bored out of your mind because you can't interact with literally anything. You can't even RP a spirit because deadchat is just a glorified OOC for dead and observing players at the moment. If being dead didn't make me literally want to quit the game and do something else it probably wouldn't be such a big deal but being forced to be unable to take part in a game you started up to play for any amount of time is so aggravating that dying in the first place just makes you angry.

[GreenBoi]

If you want roleplay with no potential of dying in a game-ish manner since SS13 is a game, you can find and go on literally any rp forum. They have chill forums, heavy forums, everything ss13 rp servers have, but arguably better in terms of quality, but less mechanics and gamey feels.

 

But from what I've gotten from the general tone of the OP, you just...hate how ss13 in general is right now. I don't mean to put words in other people's mouths, but from the context of the posts, all I can get is:

-Extended 24/7 with occassional peacetag who definitely cannot kill people

-No possibility of dying and if so, a quick and fast-paced cloning to get back into the swing of things

 

These two things kind of go against the way of the server. Constant Extended is boring, for anyone involved because antags are needed to spice up, even if their 'gimmicks' aren't the most original, its fun to see what they think of and how you can help or make them better. No chance of death creates a feeling of total entitlement and that your character cannot die. It is like OOC plot armor, without the plot. Once your character dies for something they really should have died for, people are usually confused, and become defensive, trying to find excuses and reasons to keep their character alive so you can keep playing them instead of moving on because it canonically fits.

 

If I had to say, Aurora might not just be the right server for you, but SS13 itself might not be right for you, especially considering the fact most servers have no full respawn system.

[TrickingTrapster]

I don't think antags themselves are necessarily the problem - though extended is the best mode and cult can go die in a fire - but that being dead is such a bore and takes so long that it feels more like a punishment than a good mechanic. Maybe we should split the deadchat into observer and spirit chat, where spirits can actually try to RP and have a good time while dead while observer chat becomes the current deadchat. But as long as that isn't a thing yet I will still call for improved cloning because being dead sucks so much. It sucks so much that the act of being killed becomes bad by extension.

[Doxxmedearly]

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However, if that story includes removing me from the round and literally prevent me from playing the game for at least 20 minutes is when I draw the line.

Then you need to find a 24/7 extended server or a different game entirely.

Even with updated cloning procedures as presented in the OP, you're still probably waiting a long time for cloning. Ten minutes is like, if medbay isn't busy and they get your body quickly. In many cases, cloning can take nearly as long as the respawn time or perhaps even longer.

I don't think relaxing cloning requirements to not require a psych is going to fix the problems you seem to have with the game.

[MattAtlas]

8 hours ago, TrickingTrapster said:

But as long as that isn't a thing yet I will still call for improved cloning because being dead sucks so much. It sucks so much that the act of being killed becomes bad by extension.

This game is clearly not for you, then. SS13 is the complete antithesis to what you're proposing. I'd suggest just finding another game and leaving if antags cause you so much grief.

[Zundy]

Just remove the spawn timer so when your character dies you can roll up and new one and carry on.

I too dislike being made to sit out of the game for 20 mins because I assisted with station wide RP by roleplaying my characters death. It's as though I'm being punished when in actuality it's a throw back to the good old days when you needed it in the same way an MMO FPS has a respawn timer - to prevent you just rushing back into the fight. We're an RP server though, and doing such is bannable.

 

When I'm playing tabletop with the boys or when I'm playing D&D online, when my character dies I'm not forced to sit out the game for 20mins, I just roll up a character and jump back in asap.