Sand digging rebalance

[PoZe]

It makes no sense how a single handed shovel can dig 3x3 tiles area. Secondly shovel was never meant to be at the same level as using KA to mine rock, using sad with shovel is supposed to be early game/last restort, we have drills for mining lots of stuff fast. Hand drills are getting buff to digging and you got a big industrial drill that mines on its own, which is faster.

 PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6787

Changes are:

• You can no longer dig more than one sand turf at the time with shovel/drill.
• Digging sand times are reduces for all tools. Pickaxe - 0.67 seconds, drill/borg - 0.3 second, Diamond drill - instant
• Reduced fine for accidentally burning ore into sluggs from 3 times to only +25% of what ore was worth.

This is called rebalance because if you noticed this creates tiers of digging. Currently diamond drill takes as long to dig as shovel, making drill useless mostly. This bring value to drill. It takes 6(actually 14 as you need to click on all 9 and wait for each timer of 6 seconds to go) seconds to mine 3x3 area with a diamond drill currently, vs with new changed it will take 4.5 seconds to mine same area with diamond drill with new changes.

This is a ground work to adding automation to mining where you can setup drill and pipe network and watch that ore flow to the station.

Edited July 30, 2019 by PoZe

[PoZe]

As note, currently pickaxe/drill/diamond_drill takes 6 seconds to mine any turf. SO if you queue 3x3 area  that would take 6 seconds + time it took to click all of turfs.

 

With new changes diamond drill will  mine turf almost as soon as you press on it. Meaning that time for mining with it would be just time it takes to click on all of turfs, which saves you at least 6 seconds.

[Skull132]

Why do you do this thing.

Sand is a resource you need a good amount of, if you want to produce glass. Mining sand is relatively boring; and glass is a very basic resource. As such, the acquisition of it should be relatively painless and mind-numb free. Additionally, if the price of sand in the mining vendor is an issue, then simply lowering that is an exponentially better idea.

I also do not see what this has to do with the planned automation update? Unless you mean to nerf manual mining in favour of automated mining, buuut that should arguably done at the same time or after, not before. Since doing it before makes the role very undesirable to play in the mean time.

[Nekonyan123]

This is too nerfy... at least allow shovels to keep digging 3x3 tiles... Using a shovel after you are done with a mining trips gets you some good extra mining points to buy that sweet explorer belt and extra coolness.

I am okay with other changes tho.

[FreshRefreshments]

You aren't supposed to use the drills on sand. You use them on rock. Diamond Drills are in no way useless, they mine out rock incredibly fast. This just makes regular sand digging with the shovel take far far longer, and thats the only time people are digging sand. Its nerfing one side everyone uses and buffing one NO ONE uses.

[Pratepresidenten]

7 hours ago, PoZe said:

You can no longer dig more than one sand turf at the time with shovel/drill.

This is more than enough tbh. Sand is found in near infinite quantities, and digging out a 3x3 space gives you more glass than you could ever use in one shift.

[Snakebittenn]

Why? Please explain why this needed to be done, and what experience you had while mining that led to this.

[Conspiir]

Sand is worth 1 point each. Sand and shovels are so very innocent. The only time a miner digs sand is at the very beginning of the shift, because going out to dig with a pick was hell on earth and a lot higher risk if you happen to lag or not notice a hole. This change would make it so early game digging was pointless for how long it would take, but raises up later-game digging. No one does later-game digging. At all. Ever. If there's some guy who has been out on the asteroid for two hours digging holes with diamond drills, please direct them to the rocks. The rocks are where you get points and profit. Not the dirt.

 

At current, digging for a half hour can usually get you enough points to get your gear from the vendor, which is the average for good miners. A half hour of work usually means you get enough to start actually doing your job. This change would make it completely useless to ever use a shovel except if someone asks for glass. Glass would be in the same boat as plastic--never made unless someone requests it (and always given a weird look when someone does), rather than "we always have some extra lying around" as it is now.

[PoZe]

20 hours ago, Skull132 said:

Why do you do this thing.

Sand is a resource you need a good amount of, if you want to produce glass. Mining sand is relatively boring; and glass is a very basic resource. As such, the acquisition of it should be relatively painless and mind-numb free. Additionally, if the price of sand in the mining vendor is an issue, then simply lowering that is an exponentially better idea.

I also do not see what this has to do with the planned automation update? Unless you mean to nerf manual mining in favour of automated mining, buuut that should arguably done at the same time or after, not before. Since doing it before makes the role very undesirable to play in the mean time.

But this is people mine sand not for sand, but for resources. Once you started mining hole, you can dig up any material that is found in rock along with sand. Sand is just a surface. Basically a person with shovel can mine enought materials within first 10-20 minutes of round to supply RND initially with one of each kind. I personally managed to do it. Of course it is later useless if you get AOE KA, then you just go and blast rocks for way more output.

 

9 hours ago, Conspiir said:

Sand is worth 1 point each. Sand and shovels are so very innocent. The only time a miner digs sand is at the very beginning of the shift, because going out to dig with a pick was hell on earth and a lot higher risk if you happen to lag or not notice a hole. This change would make it so early game digging was pointless for how long it would take, but raises up later-game digging. No one does later-game digging. At all. Ever. If there's some guy who has been out on the asteroid for two hours digging holes with diamond drills, please direct them to the rocks. The rocks are where you get points and profit. Not the dirt.

Shovel was meant mainly for digging sand and glass. That is why you can dig buttloads of it in 3x3. Finding resources in sand was meant for Industrial drills. Miner are getting Class E KA instead of pickaxe in Geeves update, so I do not think they will go dig sand for resources are round start now.

 

13 hours ago, ParadoxSpace said:

Why? Please explain why this needed to be done, and what experience you had while mining that led to this.

I explained why. Shovel was never meant to be used for resources digging, mostly for sand. Which is easy to do as you get lots from one turf. This PR brings tiers, increases digging speed for better tools like drills, which makes digging with diamond drill for resources in sand worth buying the drill(or finding it).

[Conspiir]

12 hours ago, PoZe said:

Shovel was meant mainly for digging sand and glass. That is why you can dig buttloads of it in 3x3. Finding resources in sand was meant for Industrial drills. Miner are getting Class E KA instead of pickaxe in Geeves update, so I do not think they will go dig sand for resources are round start now.

So... You're nerfing something you see no one going to do anyway? That doesn't make sense. That sounds like the opposite of balancing. You're pushing something that you see as lesser, even lower, to make the one that's comparatively good, even better. That's just silly, isn't it? If miners can get a little (and I do mean, a little. 6 or less, diamonds usually far fewer. Perhaps two on average.) of each material through digging for a half an hour right now on top of about 500 sheets of glass, I don't see how that's a bad thing. It's not like they're fully supplying the whole station with piles of diamonds. It's glass and a smattering of mats to keep science occupied and get their KA upgrade. … The same as anyone using a Class E KA.

 

To put things into perspective. You can dig 1 turf safely 10 times (on the 11th time you dig down to the next level). During that dig, you have a high chance (but not a guarantee) of getting a pile of sand and/or a piece of material. Yes, there are legitimately times when you dig a turf and you get nothing. There are times when you dig a turf and get only a piece of coal. Digging multiple turfs at a time offsets that chance because it will usually be a net gain of material. It's mindless work, it's slow work, and if you're fast you can even tab out to switch songs while you're digging and not lose time.

 

I know you haven't played much mining, so you don't really know how it all relates together, but that's what I'm trying to get across. Shovels are literally innocent here. No one wants to shovel more than necessary. It's not bad to get a couple diamonds over to research before you get your Epic KA. I'm certain scientists appreciate it. It's just a different way of accomplishing the early game hurdle all miners have to go through.

[Doxxmedearly]

15 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

I'm certain scientists appreciate it. It's just a different way of accomplishing the early game hurdle all miners have to go through.

Even a few sheets of each can kick off a good deal of research, so they're not sitting on their hands too long in RnD.

Honestly I'm with the other miner mains. This is. Totally unnecessary.

Interesting about the slagging penalty, though. I know what happened to cause that part of this rework. I actually never knew it penalized you. 

[PoZe]

1 hour ago, Conspiir said:

I know you haven't played much mining, so you don't really know how it all relates together, but that's what I'm trying to get across. Shovels are literally innocent here. No one wants to shovel more than necessary. It's not bad to get a couple diamonds over to research before you get your Epic KA. I'm certain scientists appreciate it. It's just a different way of accomplishing the early game hurdle all miners have to go through.

Why do you assume I haven't played mining a lot. I played mining on Exodus, I played mining on new Aurora before ore redemption points and vendor was introduced. I played after it was introduced. I played mining after KAs were introduced. I played after mining was remapped. TL:DR I played great deal of mining and have one of favorite characters as miner. True I do not play frequently, but my experience is great. Just because you have not seen me at same time playing as you doesn't mean I do not know what it is.

 

First, mining has improved since Exodus a looot, it used to be most useless job that nobody wanted to do. It was rare. And I support it entirely that mining should be fun and rewarding. That's why mining is a progress based, you start off with shitty stuff and you mine yourself into better equipment. Sorta like a Minecraft.

 

Ability to dig sand 3x3 is silly, makes no sense. Doesn't give any advantage other than making Speedrun RND mains who max research without materials within 10 minutes an whine at mining for when first load comes in.

 

Balancing is not equal to buffing. It includes nerfing too. In my case I am nerfing shovel ability to AOE(by queue), but I am buffing its digging speed per individual tile in half. Plus like I said I am adding tiers and usefulness to drills

[PoZe]

Look, I do not want to make mining more difficult. In fact I wanted to improve it by reducing fine. But 3x3 digging is silly.

I have buffed all of the time. Now it should take you as long to mine it with shovel 3x3 as it would by queuing it. Regular drill is even twice faster, and diamond drill is instant.

 

Shovel: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak8pUCKohmprn9tGleO9kGUiAPXnRw?e=tmzzCM

Drill: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak8pUCKohmprn9tIH_ysy3ivMYh5Xg?e=Ue8Lrq

 

Diamond drill: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak8pUCKohmprn9tKjZUyygg90xGVCA?e=s9KoLZ

Edited July 30, 2019 by PoZe

[MoondancerPony]

I agree with the concerns raised by the rest of the people providing feedback. The main changes in this PR cancel each other out balance-wise, so the only change is making mining more tedious for no real gain.

Additionally, I find it kind of funny that you said this:

Quote

Ability to dig sand 3x3 is silly, makes no sense. Doesn't give any advantage other than making Speedrun RND mains who max research without materials within 10 minutes an whine at mining for when first load comes in.

When I had said previously to you:

Quote

R&D can be done in like, 10 minutes if you have good miners

You asked where the fun in that was, and I answered. Circuits. Chemistry. Guns. Toxins. Xenobiology. Xenobotany. Any part of Research except for R&D.

As I said then, R&D is a hindrance to the actually fun parts of research, and doing this would just increase the tedium for both Mining and R&D no real benefit to anyone. There is absolutely no good reason to implement any of this save for maybe the slag penalty reduction.

[PoZe]

This thread is finished. PR is discarded