[1 dismissal]Excessive Tasing Could Cause Damage

[Fortport]

In my time of using rubbers, and tasers, rubbers seem to be the only thing that can seriously hurt someone when improperly used or excessively used.

What I'm suggesting is that excessive tasing/batonning should have potentially less-than-lethal or dangerous consequences. If you whack someone with a baton several times, even on help intent, expiring your whole battery on a person should cause severe burns, or heart damage, I'm not talking about the few necessary strokes. I'm talking about the three or four licks when they fall down and are already stunned, and are being excessively punished.

This way their misuse is comparable to that of misusing .45 rubbers, and excessive force is actually excessive.
 

[Nantei]

Batonning yes. I want telebatons instead of stunbatons (Not the HoS one, a modified version for officers). But people don't seem super open to that. Essentially 60 or so agony, 5 or 10 melee damage. Same as the rubber bullets, but more agony to account for the risk of being in melee.

Tasers, however, should stay non-lethal. While a prod would probably cause burns, tasers are quite different, and often only cause injury from people convulsing into objects/dangerous places. Tasers are similarly already fairly weak, so I don't see an issue with them being useful. One of the jobs of HoS/Command players is to fix bad officers using excessive force. Even if a taser is non-lethal, it's still excessive if it was more than was required. Hands>Taser>Baton>Rubbers should be your sequence of force. I don't like changing balance to fix players who rule break.

The main reason I want stunbatons to be replaced by a rubber bullet equivalent is because I don't like security having such a powerful non-lethal tool that can be used against every single threat. If someone is wearing armor, you should have to risk hurting them to detain them unless you are using something like a carbine. Stun batons are easily the most frustrating tool to deal with as an antag.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Nantei

[Fortport]

21 minutes ago, Nantei said:

Batonning yes. I want telebatons instead of stunbatons (Not the HoS one, a modified version for officers). But people don't seem super open to that. Essentially 60 or so agony, 5 or 10 melee damage. Same as the rubber bullets, but more agony to account for the risk of being in melee.

Tasers, however, should stay non-lethal. While a prod would probably cause burns, tasers are quite different, and often only cause injury from people convulsing into objects/dangerous places. Tasers are similarly already fairly weak, so I don't see an issue with them being useful. One of the jobs of HoS/Command players is to fix bad officers using excessive force. Even if a taser is non-lethal, it's still excessive if it was more than was required. Hands>Taser>Baton>Rubbers should be your sequence of force. I don't like changing balance to fix players who rule break.

The main reason I want stunbatons to be replaced by a rubber bullet equivalent is because I don't like security having such a powerful non-lethal tool that can be used against every single threat. If someone is wearing armor, you should have to risk hurting them to detain them unless you are using something like a carbine. Stun batons are easily the most frustrating tool to deal with as an antag.

Tasers, when used in great excess(5+ shots), could cause minor burns. Batons, in great excess, could cause severe ones. I don't think that's too crazy. It's not rule breakers we're having in mind here, just actual repercussions for stunning someone way too much so that the regulation being broken makes more sense.

People falling over and getting hurt is one thing that will probably never happen.

[Nantei]

The issue is excessive tasing should already be punished by an HoS/Warden player. And tasers are fairly weak, which is why I don't want to nerf them more.

[UnknownMurder]

It is to my understanding that an excessive tasing has the strong potential to stop your victim's heart and effectively render them deceased. I never got tased before so... I think this information helps.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/taser-what-happens-body-tasered-12608433

[Skull132]

Clickbait article.

Quote

Tasers and other high-voltage stun devices can cause cardiac arrhythmia in healthy and susceptible subjects, leading to heart attack or death in minutes by ventricular fibrillation, which leads to cardiac arrest and — if not treated immediately — to sudden death.

Followed by,

Quote

 

Put experts say, if you’re perfectly healthy and sober, being tasered will probably hurt a lot for five seconds.

Otherwise, you will be left unscathed.

However, if you aren't healthy - or sober - the effects are unknown.

 

With the summary being,

Quote

Can the recipient expect permanent damage?

It can momentarily stun or render an attacker unconscious, yet the taser's low electrical amperage and short duration of pulsating current, ensures a non-lethal charge.

Moreover, it does not cause permanent damage or long-term aftereffects to muscles, nerves or other body functions.

Literally garbage.

[Scheveningen]

There aren't any default taser settings on traditional TASER weapons that permit an officer to maim you, it's also counter-intuitive considering most modern-day TASER weapons are "one-and-done" in order to conform with the notoriety of police budgets. Cops IRL have to be trying really hard to give you permanent damage from tasing, and for the most part if they wanted to do that, they'd use slams, nightsticks and other means to rough you up, and that encompasses the large majority of police brutality.

Further, our in-game tasers utilize electroshock energy bolts, which are even more effective and less dangerous to the health of people in-game.

There's no real reason to do this, so no. -1

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The consequences will punish the tazee more than the taser

[Fortport]

On 05/08/2019 at 16:31, Marlon Phoenix said:

The consequences will punish the tazee more than the taser

A few minor burns for excessively tazing someone and them needing ointment because you put it to them might get you in trouble with the higher ups if you were just supposed to stun them two or three times. The point is so that, by causing damage through excessive tasing and stun prodding you leave evidence of excessive force that can be utilized to make a case against you. 

If you stun the heck out of someone over and over, you can just say you didn't actually hurt them and as far as mechanics are concerned you didn't, despite using excessive force. Permanent or severe damage may not be ideal after all for doing that.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Fortport

[Nantei]

As someone who has gotten burned a lot more than she probably should due to R&D experiments, you won't need to ointment and nobody will probably care if they didn't witness it. Natural regeneration is strangely robust. As an HoS, I almost never push for an excessive force charge unless it was obvious or I personally witnessed it. This is really just punishing the victim more than the perpetrator, because if a victim resisted arrest I usually am not very sympathetic to their cries of excessive force.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Nantei

[Fortport]

6 minutes ago, Nantei said:

As someone who has gotten burned a lot more than she probably should due to R&D experiments, you won't need to ointment and nobody will probably care if they didn't witness it. Natural regeneration is strangely robust. As an HoS, I almost never push for an excessive force charge unless it was obvious or I personally witnessed it. This is really just punishing the victim more than the perpetrator, because if a victim resisted arrest I usually am not very sympathetic to their cries of excessive force.

I suggested burns because people can usually recover from them and they aren't so bad. Even getting lit up by a carbine isn't the worst thing in the world.

If a victim resists arrest, being stunned multiple times after being downed is usually just done out of spite. The perpetrator should get in trouble if they actually hurt the person that was not violent, but just trying to escape. If someone was fighting tooth and nail to get away, however, that's another story.

[Nantei]

3 hours ago, Fortport said:

If a victim resists arrest, being stunned multiple times after being downed is usually just done out of spite. The perpetrator should get in trouble if they actually hurt the person that was not violent, but just trying to escape. If someone was fighting tooth and nail to get away, however, that's another story.

I feel I need to clarify. When I am talking about excessive force, it's almost always a case where I didn't see it. If I see it, I will obviously enforce it. But if the victim is saying they did it, and I have good reason to believe the victim was resisting, I am not going to enforce it. Because a lot of people lie through their teeth when they are being processed, and I will believe a Head/AI/Officer over them depending on a large degree of factors that I can't get into here. Everyone sorta has a level of trust I give them based on prior actions and conduct, but it starts higher based on the situation. So in most scenarios I won't believe X Greytider when they say Officer Jobberson hit them too many times with a stun baton. Because it's more likely they are lying than the officer.

[Carver]

I'd be fine with this if the meme of 'running away after being tased and batoned 20 times in a row and repeatedly trying to break out of cuffs' was discouraged. There's a reason people are tased to shit, it's because they insist on trying to constantly run away. Should Security be punished for cracking down on shitters who have yakkety sax playing in their heads? No. I'll simply dislocate their knees if tasing becomes ineffective.

[Nantei]

Technically speaking this is already covered, people just don't often ahelp it. A lot of players ignore the pain rules. Or they think being an antagonist makes pain rules not apply. I have ahelped people who do this before, it's definitely already against the rules. 

[Alberyk]

No, we should not add ways to punish the victim here.

 

-1 dismissal