Cheaper Tobacco

[Snakebittenn]

In reference to https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7765

This makes tobacco products actually affordable, having been made more expensive (and then forgotten about) years ago in a lore arc.
I will not be adjusting any other vendor prices until this is done, as doing every vendor price will take a significantly longer amount of time.

[Doc]

why does this need a thread

 

+1

[Pegasus]

The lore reasons for these prices no longer exist and they should be lowered to something more reasonable.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

We had this talk in lore Writers. 

The price change is permanent to reflect the price gouging caused by the monopoly of getmore and nanotrasen on these products. Its always been meant to be analagous to the diamond industry.

I told you in the conversation that we never forgot. Why are you claiming otherwise? Did you forget i told you?

Edited December 21, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The conversation was five days ago. If you disagree with the reasons then do so but dont fib.

Mofo, the loremaster, said in this same conversation he wants the price to stay.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Snakebittenn]

It was forgotten about in the way that nobody ever brought it up again until now. The current human loremaster does not want these prices, which is why this PR was made.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

There is no reason for the price of this to remain so high. One pack can cost an assistant’s whole account. Vaurca food made from phoron is, hilariously, less expensive than cigarettes if I recall right.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, NewOriginalSchwann said:

There is no reason for the price of this to remain so high. One pack can cost an assistant’s whole account. Vaurca food made from phoron is, hilariously, less expensive than cigarettes if I recall right.

This is intentional. The artificial scarcity is being exploited by megacorporations. It was chosen as a method of showcasing the consequences of NTs monopoly in a way that doesn't disrupt game flow.

[Scheveningen]

Don't really care what off-base drama is going on, cigs shouldn't cost half/a third of an assistant's account for gameplay reasons.

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

The artificial scarcity is being exploited by megacorporations. It was chosen as a method of showcasing the consequences of NTs monopoly in a way that doesn't disrupt game flow.

 

Okay. Cool. Who cares?

 

Not because the concept is bad, but because the concept is not communicated in any way. No one has any reason to see 200 credit cigarettes and think, "ah yes, megacorporate price gouging." They see 200 credit cigs and say, "wow, that's ridiculous." This kind of lore representation needs to be backed up with actual ongoing events to give context and explanation for what these things mean, you can't just leave it sitting there and say "this is representative of lore," without actually representing it through lore. That's not how our setting as a game-based RP environment works. At best, someone might ask over radio why the prices are so high- a few people are going to make some random thing up to try and explain it, most people are going to say they have no idea, and maybe someone will know the actual lore reason? But they'll be indistinguishable from the ones who just made up their own reason. That is, unless the player is informed OOCly of why the prices are so high, at which point we have to accept that this has failed as IC lore communication and frankly serves no purpose.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Doc

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Okay. Cool. Who cares?

 

Not because the concept is bad, but because the concept is not communicated in any way. No one has any reason to see 200 credit cigarettes and think, "ah yes, megacorporate price gouging." They see 200 credit cigs and say, "wow, that's ridiculous." This kind of lore representation needs to be backed up with actual ongoing events to give context and explanation for what these things mean, you can't just leave it sitting there and say "this is representative of lore," without actually representing it through lore. That's not how our setting as a game-based RP environment works. At best, someone might ask over radio why the prices are so high- a few people are going to make some random thing up to try and explain it, most people are going to say they have no idea, and maybe someone will know the actual lore reason? But they'll be indistinguishable from the ones who just made up their own reason. That is, unless the player is informed OOCly of why the prices are so high, at which point we have to accept that this has failed as IC lore communication and frankly serves no purpose.

A lot of lore is told ooc because you have to read the wiki for a lot of stuff. This is one of those. That said,

Your criticisms are actually very valid.  Ot wasn't put on the wiki anywhere outside the lore article. Disagreeing with it in your way is fine and i can even agree with it though I'd like it clarified before being removed.

I took issue with paradox lying about the nature of the matter (ie we forgot).

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

22 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Don't really care what off-base drama is going on, cigs shouldn't cost half/a third of an assistant's account for gameplay reasons.

How does it disrupt gameplay?

Diamonds are as common as sand and in a conventional economy would be mundane and cheap but cost exorbitant amounts of money. A diamond ring shouldn't cost my entire paycheck and yet it does.

Because no one cares about rings in game, but we care about cigs, this was chosen as the product to be made analagous to diamonds.

@Mofo1995 do you still agree with this?

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

A lot of lore is told ooc because you have to read the wiki for a lot of stuff. This is one of those.

Yes, definitely, most lore is told OOCly- it has to be, we can't tell all lore ICly, for a variety of reasons. But this instance is trying to, and, I think, fails because of the above reasons (and need not be kept as a result).

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, Doc said:

Yes, definitely, most lore is told OOCly- it has to be, we can't tell all lore ICly, for a variety of reasons. But this instance is trying to, and, I think, fails because of the above reasons (and need not be kept as a result).

How would you communicate a change like this in-character?

How do you reflect the consequences of a monopoly if not through artificially high prices?

Should the description of the cigarette packet mention the situation? "its kept expensive by the company"

[Mofo1995]

Firstly I would like to state I'm happy that wolf doge was posted in this thread. I believe it will bring us good omens in the discussion to follow.

Secondly I would like to say that in the current state of our game, money is worthless. The exorbitant price of cigarettes is the only thing someone might want to get money for, other than character backstory considerations. And even then I suppose a nicotine addiction is a character backstory consideration as well. By making something so expensive people struggle to afford it, paradoxically value has now been given to the credit as an on station currency. The reason being it's the only form of currency which can be traded with a vending machine for the expensive habit of smoking. 

I understand that the exceptional pricing experience can be undercut by bringing your own from off station, but I like the idea of them still being quite expensive, more than can be overlooked by frivolous buyers. Possibly we could write lore about anti-smoking campaigns of the future, as already a very significant portion of cigarette prices is due to taxation, supposedly as an incentive to make people quit. Compounded with ideas such as a cigarette monopoly, and I could see how the prices could get very high. Although, not quite as high as they currently are. 

Supposing the prices were halved so that they could be afforded but still reflect the cultural and economic considerations of the future, I'd be fine with that. But the prices this seems to suggest would make credits mechanically useless again.

These are all time buying maneuvers though since we still just need reforms to the economy and everyone's personal financials in general to make player choices on spending more engaging than just a pack of cigarettes, since everything else but laptops can be afforded with great ease. The cargo ordering system is extremely helpful towards this goal, but I'm hoping to work out how to make the transactions on station more engaging. 

[Scheveningen]

Diamond rings cost a lot due to the amount of work (and tools) required to cut diamonds and fit them into jewelry. You're not paying just for the diamond, you're paying for the diamond cutting process, the ring acquisition that'll actually fit the gem, as well as ensuring the ring is composed of robust enough metals to not fall apart upon fitting onto your finger. And then jewelers have to make a profit so that they can spend money later on to expand their business and ensure they can reach more customers. Yeah, rings are not cheap, but consider what they actually cost to make a single engagement ring.

I can roll on down to the gas station right now to get some raw tobacco right now to roll my own budget cigs, and the cost is only slightly less than the actual cigarettes themselves. I'm not a smoker anymore, though - There's a huge difference in expenses between diamond rings and cigs.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Scheveningen

[HighAdmiral]

My question is has this price change been shown in supply and demand in other ways, or has this change only effected the market price of cigs. To state my question another way, can players use this to benefit themselves by growing tobacco and exporting it or was this change just "haha cigs are expensive also fuck you"?

[Scheveningen]

1 hour ago, Mofo1995 said:

Supposing the prices were halved so that they could be afforded but still reflect the cultural and economic considerations of the future, I'd be fine with that. But the prices this seems to suggest would make credits mechanically useless again.

Credits are mechanically useless (apart from buying guns) because the round-by-round economy resets and there's a general constant availability and price range of goods on a round-by-round basis. It means little in the grand scope of things, but reducing the cost of credits would make credits no more or less mechanically useless, they just are useless as they stand.

Considering the inordinate amount of effort required to make internally consistent pricing, I'd rather that gameplay prices be balanced according to gameplay ease, as I don't think persistent economy is coming anytime soon, and we shouldn't model pricing after a persistent economy when one doesn't actually exist from gameplay terms.

[canon35]

Hell yes, finally. The price raising was a dumb meme from the time of the blockade and occupation, I see no reason why it shouldn't be lower now. As everyone has already said, fucking k'oi bars are cheaper than cigarettes. It's time to lower these and just let people afford them easily. They're cigarettes. Cheap, easily produced, easily imported (Besides luxury brands that are in game/coming to the game.). 

Pegasus, the man behind human lore himself, is fully in support of this as well. It's time to restore the cheaper prices. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

9 minutes ago, canon35 said:

Hell yes, finally. The price raising was a dumb meme from the time of the blockade and occupation, I see no reason why it shouldn't be lower now. As everyone has already said, fucking k'oi bars are cheaper than cigarettes. It's time to lower these and just let people afford them easily. They're cigarettes. Cheap, easily produced, easily imported (Besides luxury brands that are in game/coming to the game.). 

Pegasus, the man behind human lore himself, is fully in support of this as well. It's time to restore the cheaper prices. 

Read mofos post.

[AmoryBlaine]

Can we just have different brands, please.

[Scheveningen]

out of scope of the suggestion

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

26 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Can we just have different brands, please.

Monopoly...

[Snakebittenn]

We have four different brands right now, not including the PRA brand or individual brands of rollable shit.

Edited December 22, 2019 by ParadoxSpace

[NewOriginalSchwann]

54 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Monopoly...

If it's meant to be a monopoly where we buy NT-brand^TM cigarettes, why are so many crew members allowed to bring cigarettes from home? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the monopoly mechanically and in-lore?