Have note/warning appeals into Unban requests instead of Staff Complaints

[BurgerBB]

I probably should just speak for myself here, but I don't like the fact that in order to appeal a decision that isn't a direct ban, I have to make a staff complaint. This is probably snowflakey as shit, but I think that the word "complaint" it way too strong for the message I'm getting across, and I'm not actually complaining about the staff's conduct, just trying to appeal the decision. I think that it also creates unnecessary drama and unwanted tensions as well as a side effect.

But yeah to me it doesn't make sense that appealing decisions by staff is put into the same subform as complaining about poor staff behavior.

[Alberyk]

The thing is;

Unban appeals is for when you agree with whatever the staff said, and wants another chance.

Complaints is for when you don't agree with the staff did.

Putting warning/notes appeal into the unban section will just make this confusing. Staff complaints being the general; "i dont agree with this" works far better in this case.

[SatinsPristOTD]

I've always seen it a bit strange myself that I have to complain about a staff members decision. They're human, just like the rest of us... and sometimes their decisions may be wrong. Maybe they didn't have all the information at the time. Maybe they needed a better discussion about the problem, and it couldn't be done with the stress of having to "restart the round."

It doesn't mean they acted improperly. That they broke server rules or the expected conduct of staff. Or that the decision itself was even bad.

Honestly, it seems really strict on the STAFF to have this system in place.

Maybe making it a staff complaint isn't the answer. I don't think putting it in unban appeals is appropriate either.

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

The thing is;

Unban appeals is for when you agree with whatever the staff said, and wants another chance.

Complaints is for when you don't agree with the staff did.

Putting warning/notes appeal into the unban section will just make this confusing. Staff complaints being the general; "i dont agree with this" works far better in this case.

The issue therein is that calling it/having it be a staff complaint feels like you're arguing against the personal conduct of the staff member, rather than arguing against the note itself. I typically view complaints (and tend to see them used) as a 'this person is terrible' thing.

[BurgerBB]

39 minutes ago, Carver said:

The issue therein is that calling it/having it be a staff complaint feels like you're arguing against the personal conduct of the staff member, rather than arguing against the note itself. I typically view complaints (and tend to see them used) as a 'this person is terrible' thing.

It's exactly this. If moving it to unban requests is too confusing, then maybe make a new section.

[Xelnagahunter]

2 hours ago, Carver said:

The issue therein is that calling it/having it be a staff complaint feels like you're arguing against the personal conduct of the staff member, rather than arguing against the note itself. I typically view complaints (and tend to see them used) as a 'this person is terrible' thing.

 

3 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

It doesn't mean they acted improperly. That they broke server rules or the expected conduct of staff. Or that the decision itself was even bad.

Honestly, it seems really strict on the STAFF to have this system in place.

The thing to remember here, which all trial staff have to learn when their heart races from getting their first one, is that staff complaints aren't the same as a player complaint. If you disagree with a ruling/punishment/other, you make a staff complaint. If I act in bad faith in the round or in OOC you should totally make a player complaint against me, not a staff complaint. Maybe a rename of the catagory would ease this mentality, such as making it a "staff decision complaint" or something of the like. But please don't look at the section and think you are speaking ill of us by posting in it as things there only refer to our decisions and conduct as staff, which can sometimes take a wrong turn on hectic rounds or in times when we feel rushed to get something done.

[Carver]

14 minutes ago, Xelnagahunter said:

 

The thing to remember here, which all trial staff have to learn when their heart races from getting their first one, is that staff complaints aren't the same as a player complaint. If you disagree with a ruling/punishment/other, you make a staff complaint. If I act in bad faith in the round or in OOC you should totally make a player complaint against me, not a staff complaint. Maybe a rename of the catagory would ease this mentality, such as making it a "staff decision complaint" or something of the like. But please don't look at the section and think you are speaking ill of us by posting in it as things there only refer to our decisions and conduct as staff, which can sometimes take a wrong turn on hectic rounds or in times when we feel rushed to get something done.

I wouldn't make a player complaint if you were a shitty admin. I wouldn't make a staff complaint if I personally disagreed with a decision. A complaint I feel is something built-up over time, and I'd see a valid complaint as an admin who makes the wrong decision with malicious intent or is simply unfit for their position. Not someone who made a singular disagreeable judgement that I have a personal argument against (the judgement, not the someone).

Or in short, how I see it:
Player complaint: Argue against the player
Staff complaint: Argue against the staff member's position (That is, whether they deserve their rank)
Note/Warning appeal: Argue against the note/warning
Unban appeal: Argue against the ban

[BurgerBB]

12 hours ago, Xelnagahunter said:

The thing to remember here, which all trial staff have to learn when their heart races from getting their first one, is that staff complaints aren't the same as a player complaint. If you disagree with a ruling/punishment/other, you make a staff complaint. If I act in bad faith in the round or in OOC you should totally make a player complaint against me, not a staff complaint. Maybe a rename of the catagory would ease this mentality, such as making it a "staff decision complaint" or something of the like. But please don't look at the section and think you are speaking ill of us by posting in it as things there only refer to our decisions and conduct as staff, which can sometimes take a wrong turn on hectic rounds or in times when we feel rushed to get something done.

Even if all the admins tell us this we still feel it.

 

Like just imagine for a second if adminhelp was instead called playercomplaint. 

[Xelnagahunter]

On 20/01/2020 at 12:41, BurgerBB said:

Even if all the admins tell us this we still feel it.

 

Like just imagine for a second if adminhelp was instead called playercomplaint. 

Would "Staff Dispute" or "Ruling Dispute" be more appropriate?

[BurgerBB]

22 minutes ago, Xelnagahunter said:

Would "Staff Dispute" or "Ruling Dispute" be more appropriate?

Ruling Dispute sounds excellent.

[Garnascus]

On 19/01/2020 at 19:56, Alberyk said:

Unban appeals is for when you agree with whatever the staff said, and wants another chance.

Complaints is for when you don't agree with the staff did.

This essentially, and i think the system works fine as it is. I really do not understand the apprehension over the words "Staff complaint". I do not deny that it exists and i suppose i should be empathetic to it. Staff complaints are really not that big of a deal to stress over (usually). They can be over any decision made.

[Xelnagahunter]

5 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

This essentially, and i think the system works fine as it is. I really do not understand the apprehension over the words "Staff complaint". I do not deny that it exists and i suppose i should be empathetic to it. Staff complaints are really not that big of a deal to stress over (usually). They can be over any decision made.

While I understand that we have taken to that mentality, largely because he had to learn to not take them negatively against us, I can also understand the community not liking the use of the term complaint when disputing a staff member's ruling or punishment. They don't feel like they are complaining against the staff but solely this one time instance and don't wanna feel like they are dragging someone's name through the mud. Complaint does imply negative thoughts.

[Carver]

To present my thoughts on it in a vulgar form, I will present an example:

Let's say I'm banned. Let's say I don't care about appealing the ban, but I hold particular issue with the staff member who dealt the ban. I've made a staff complaint, not because I want to argue my ban, but because I truly think this non-existent staff member is a piece of shit and should be demoted.

Had I an issue with the ban (or any sort of punishment) in this example, I would not have gone to a staff complaint, but rather a ban appeal. As, per the wording of it, I'm ultimately complaining about the staff member.

[Kaed]

I can't believe we're having a thread where we're arguing about whether the complaint terminology used on the forum is too harsh or mean. 

We don't need to be splitting complaints off into several other forms just to avoid maybe making someone feel a little bit bad because there was a word complaint attached to a thread with their name. Player complaints and staff complaints both serve perfectly reasonable purposes, though I admit it seems a little weird that the ban and unban requests have their own Forum but whatever. 

 

[Alberyk]

5 hours ago, Carver said:

To present my thoughts on it in a vulgar form, I will present an example:

Let's say I'm banned. Let's say I don't care about appealing the ban, but I hold particular issue with the staff member who dealt the ban. I've made a staff complaint, not because I want to argue my ban, but because I truly think this non-existent staff member is a piece of shit and should be demoted.

Had I an issue with the ban (or any sort of punishment) in this example, I would not have gone to a staff complaint, but rather a ban appeal. As, per the wording of it, I'm ultimately complaining about the staff member.

If you don't agree with the ban at all, you should still make the complaint. That is what the forum tells you, it is written there for anyone to see. You can just complain about the rulling fine, and I see little merit in changing the name because people hold misconceptiosn that can be cleared by reading the sub forum description, this would likely happen if we changed the name to something else.

[SatinsPristOTD]

A ban request just showed up on the forums and one of the things mentioned was how "often" the player made complaints on the forums about rulings. The name brings negativity and it was (and can still be) used as canon fodder for baseless ban requests.

It does look bad on a person when a lot of their forum posts are "Staff Complaints" instead of "Ruling Appeal".

[Skull132]

Ban requests are an old vestige that should probably be removed. They were originally created back in 2013-2014, when we didn't have any persistent messaging system like the game -> discord bridge, and basically served as adminhelps for cases of clear grief when the admins weren't around. With the advent of Discord, this is no longer necessary, and most other ban requests are simply treated as player complaints.

As for complaints vs appeals. There's two components to this, really. The first is that yes, technically speaking, people citing that the phrasing of "complaints" is by default negative are correct. And it does have an effect on mentality. However, this effect is usually skin deep and shouldn't really be an issue for a well balanced adult to overcome. The other thing is. "Appealing" bans is simply lingua franca for SS13. If you look at the forums, then we use the verbage of "Unban requests". There are only two real differences here:

• We have a different procedure for managing unban requests than we have any other appeal against admin action. This is primarily due to the fact that bans are the most severe form of punishment we have, ergo, deserve a fast-path.
• Unban requests are the only place where you can appeal a decision on grounds other than claiming the admin's judgement as erroneous. This is a very key difference, and absolutely should not apply be applied to notes and warnings.

Due to these two points, it would be unwise and messy to have note and warning appeals in the unban requests section. They are not treated the same, ergo, they should not share a forum.