[+2 DISMISSAL;Bin 16.02] Sidearms for all (of command)

[Cnaym]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8215

Does what it says. Adds a .45 flasher pistol and a laser pistol to the CMO, CE and RD locker. Those are either light tools of self defense or easy grabs for antags without having to storm the bridge or armory.

The goal is to have more none lethal sidearms around. For antags and command members. You might not kill anyone with a laser pistol, but some carp or a hostage situation are now within your reach. Not the biggest balancing change I suppose, but a feedback thread was requested.

Discuss  

[Bear]

+1 I like it. Lot of different ways this can go, a lot of different applications. Expeditions, a quick emag and grab for an antag, the ever annoying carps, and more. Not exactly a massive imbalance to the game from my perspective.

[KingOfThePing]

I am very much against this. Neither the Chief Engineer, the Research Director nor the Chief Medical Officer have any reason to have have real training to use firearms and/or just having a gun lying around in their offices. 

You might argue that it is "only a pistol" but let me tell you that every weapon someone uses needs proper training to use it effectively. While your intentions to place more non-lethal weapons around the station might be good, giving these roles (potentially) lethal guns is just unrealistic. 

[Cnaym]

There is no reason to bend character and feel forced to use them. They are simply suggested as an option. You can hand them off to an officer during lowpop for example, maybe give it an engineer going out to repair while carps are around and such. I can see the issue with the laser pistol though, since it has been buffed recently. The .45 plus a single rubber magazine would be an option imho. Simple enough as a defensive tool and can be repurposed by antags to be dangerous.

I'll obviously wait for more feedback, thank you two for the posts. ? 

[MattAtlas]

We had a discussion about this in maintainer chat and the consensus is that we don't really want this. It really only enables head of staff frontlining, by virtue of allowing them to get lethals from cargo or science. In addition, the RD and CMO are already powerful as it is. They don't need more, because their dept already has strong shit.

[Meep]

I mean it makes sense I suppose. If the paper pushing HoP gets a gun then it'd make sense the others do. Although I'm not sure if they need them though.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, KingOfThePing said:

I am very much against this. Neither the Chief Engineer, the Research Director nor the Chief Medical Officer have any reason to have have real training to use firearms and/or just having a gun lying around in their offices. 

You might argue that it is "only a pistol" but let me tell you that every weapon someone uses needs proper training to use it effectively. While your intentions to place more non-lethal weapons around the station might be good, giving these roles (potentially) lethal guns is just unrealistic. 

 

54 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

It really only enables head of staff frontlining, by virtue of allowing them to get lethals from cargo or science. In addition, the RD and CMO are already powerful as it is. They don't need more, because their dept already has strong shit.

 

Basically, echoing all of this. The HoP gets it for the same reason the Captain gets it; they have direct and full access to all of the most sensitive aspects of the station at a complete whim. They are given this equipment to protect those interests in a last ditch scenario. They are, presumably, given only the most basic training required to defend themselves with it and utilize it safely- because that may be the absolute last line of defense of the entire station (mostly in the interests of preventing frontlining- which we already have issues with from captains, and, at points in the past, 'hopcurity'- and thus this is already an imperfect situation with weapons given only to those two roles). These reasons are not applicable to any other command staff, and so they have no reason to have these weapons. -1.

[BoryaTheSlayer]

As much as I would love the energy pistol for the CMO so I can kill malpracticioners, I don't really think this is needed, neither is it desired. These heads of staff already have flashes and alternative methods of self-defense, as well.

[Peppermint]

I'd change it from energy weapons and flash pistols to - the name escapes me - extended baton thingy the HoS/Captain gets. 

[Pratepresidenten]

If e-gun is unrealistic, giving them all a telebaton is even more so. If CutieMcCMO cant pull the trigger on a recoil-less pistol, they sure as hell cant apply the large amount of force required to subdue someone with a manual baton.

That being said, I wouldnt mind the egun as an option for the other heads. Whitelistees should be trusted enough not to break character just because "OMG GUN!". But then again, I could be wrong.

[Brayce]

Yes +1.

To break down arguments:

CE, RD, CMO have no reason to have firearms, let alone lethal ones, or training to use them:

Two out of the three roles are EVA capable so they're contending with xenofauna, and losing a head of staff to a migration is bad. While the flash is an absolute joke as a self-defense weapon it is issued to each head of staff and presumably have been trained in it's use. I believe this sets the precedent that all heads of staff do receive SOME training in self-defense, and see no reason why this training couldn't extend to also include firearms training given the dangerous positions these people are being posted to, and are expected to maintain (sometimes alone). 

Capt, and HoP have it because they have access to secure areas/ the ID Computer: 

There are several areas of station that are only accessible from a head of staff, and anyone of these people having their access usurped would be bad for station operations as a whole. The only areas the CE, and RD unique to them they would not be able to access would be the Vault, or SAT. Both of these roles have access to other secure areas most of which are shared with their staff with the exception of the AI core, The bunker, and telecomms. Two of these areas are defend lethally, if the HoP, and Captain are the last line of defense to access to the entire station, the CE, and RD are the last lines of defense for access to these critical areas as well.

Enables Front-lining:

Yes the E-pistol will make it more readily available (OUT OF THE GATE) for these roles to 'front-line' . The issue is all three roles have far greater tools at their disposal to be able to do so the addition of the e-pistol doesn't change this with the possible exception of the initial antag encounter. An RD with a e-pistol is a lot less scary if they're convinced it's sufficient then an unarmed RD who decided being unarmed is not so great, and decides to build a combat rig/ hyper Science gun / Acid Chem sprayer. Ultimately I think this is a misplaced fear, and personally haven't really encountered too many scenarios where such armed head of staff actively participate in assault actions rather than either defending themselves, or as is most often retaining the ability to defend themselves. 

 

Most of my reasoning is sorely based around the RD, and CE being weak-points, or having legitimate reason to have to have the ability to defend themselves. It is far harder for me to come up with valid reasoning for the CMO to be such armed. I lean to equalize all the head of staff to be armed, rather than everyone but the CMO who might not really have a reason (Maybe a CMO Main would be able to come up with more legitimate scenarios than I).  That said I don't think it would be valid reasoning to exclude two based off of one.

[KingOfThePing]

31 minutes ago, Brayce said:

Two out of the three roles are EVA capable so they're contending with xenofauna, and losing a head of staff to a migration is bad. While the flash is an absolute joke as a self-defense weapon it is issued to each head of staff and presumably have been trained in it's use. I believe this sets the precedent that all heads of staff do receive SOME training in self-defense, and see no reason why this training couldn't extend to also include firearms training given the dangerous positions these people are being posted to, and are expected to maintain (sometimes alone). 

While you are right that these roles are EVA capable - they do not or rather should not be EVA alone. Normally they have security guards armed with rifles or carbines to protect them. 

Your argument with the flash is also very weak. Sure they got some kind of training but training someone to point a flasher at someone's face is very different from proper (and continued) firearm training with tools that are very deadly if not handled correctly. Your argument stems down the fact that antagonists exist, something that just, canonically almost never happens, due to our premise. I dont think I can find a single chief physician with firearm training, except in a military position maybe, which does not apply for us. Thus, the fact that an engineer or doctor (even if they are the heads) do not need guns lying in their offices. 

 

35 minutes ago, Brayce said:

he issue is all three roles have far greater tools at their disposal to be able to do so the addition of the e-pistol doesn't change this with the possible exception of the initial antag encounter. An RD with a e-pistol is a lot less scary if they're convinced it's sufficient then an unarmed RD who decided being unarmed is not so great, and decides to build a combat rig/ hyper Science gun / Acid Chem sprayer.

Your are entirely right. All these roles have far more dangerous tools at their disposal. Thing is, they now also get a free pistol added to that, too. Implying that an RD would NOT make a combat rig just because he has a pistol in his office now is silly and you know that they will. 

I am not convinced. What is the reasoning behind the idea of this PR anyway? There are enough guns on station. If you want one, it's easy to get one. Who asked for this?

[Cnaym]

16 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

Who asked for this?

I did. The small sidearms are fun to use and harmless as fuck. A tool for RP, a cheap alternative to a 12 TC gun to take someone hostage and so on and so forth.

I also asked for feedback. The points Brayce raised are pretty good, let's see what the rest has to add.  

[KingOfThePing]

Sorry but I dont see how a seven shot 35 damage each laser pistol is "harmless as fuck". Maybe we have just different definitions for that.

[Cnaym]

That is why we are talking over this. We could go stun revolver instead. The sprite is amazing, it is none lethal and fun for everyone ? 

[Arrow768]

I am seconding the vote for dismissal for the following reasons:

• We have issues with heads of staff front-lining already. Further legitimizing that by handing them all a sidearm does not help to resolve that problem.
  • Yes they are heads of staff and yes they should be trusted not to abuse that, it still happens quite regularly.
  • If they go out of their way to build weapons, carry them on them and then front-line with them, it makes it quite a bit easier to strip their whitelist for front-lining compared to them carrying a weapon they are supplied by the corporation and using it to go after antagonists.
• There is a substantial difference in the (continued) training required to safely operate and maintain a firearm compared to carrying a baton or even a flash.
• The HoP and the Captain get their Sidearm to make them a slightly harder target for Antagonists, as they have the capability to hand out all access to the station.
  • This is something the other Heads of Staff do not have and therefore this gameplay consideration does not apply to them.
• Heads of Staff should not put themselves into a situation that might require the usage of a sidearm.
  • A single carp can be taken care of by hitting it a few times with a blunt object.
  • If they want to go EVA during a carp infestation or go out exploring on the asteroid, they are expected to bring someone else along who can ensure their safety.

That said, I would support the addition of a telebaton to the head of staff lockers given that the flash is pretty useless nowadays and that using a telebaton (at a very basic level) does not require any sort of training except for the information on how to extend and collapse it.