Restrict Heads of Staff from several onstation antag roles.

[Doxxmedearly]

PR Here

Please read this thread before posting, on pain of looking like a fool who only reads headlines.

In short, restricts heads of staff from starting as some on-station antags (Traitor, vampire, cultist, and changeling). In my experience, heads of staff rarely use their power well as these antag types, choosing to use their advantages in gear, IC skillset, and department access to powergame instead of doing things that involve entire departments. It's tiring. But I am only one person so I cannot view every round, so I am asking for community feedback.

This does not prevent conversion: Heads can still be converted to cult, thralled, and vamped.

Q: Does this affect Representatives/Consulars or QMs?
A: No, they are not heads

Q: Does this give them loyalty implants/mindshields?
A: No. This also changes nothing about them (So you still cannot cult convert a captain with their implant, for example).

Q: Can you be autotraitor'd later in the round?
A: No. Command will not be able to be traitors in the current state of the PR.

Q: If people are powergaming, can't you just ahelp them?
A: Yes and you always should. However, limiting powergaming through mechanics is something that happens all the time. A major thought behind this PR is that command antags have shown time and time again that they use their advantages to establish dominance in a round rather than facilitating fun and engaging RP for players.

Q: Why did you leave X antagonist in?
A: For rev and loyalist, command is in an extremely good position to push the round's narrative, and an instance where their position is most often used for the good of the round.
Borer is a relatively new mode and kind of in a weird state with the slug being a non-crew and the host being crew. Overall a lot of the actions taken will be by the borer itself, so I'm not touching it for now.
Renegade is like a half-antag thing and, like borer, newish. Not looking to touch it for now.

 

Looking for feedback on this idea, suggestions, and what peoples' experiences overall have been with Head of Staff antags. If anything, I'd like for this thread to create constructive conversation about the topic. Civility on all sides, please. This is far from a sure thing to be added and things about it can always be changed.

Possible negatives:
-Slightly worsens the current issue of not having enough antags for roundstart, which is my main hesitation.
-Affects the few and far between that use their command position to do creative gimmicks. However I ultimately feel like this will make for better rounds.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Doxxmedearly
OP clarifications

[WickedCybs]

I think this is a fine idea, really. I'm reminded of a pretty recent round that had a command antag, security antags and ninjas that essentially put the station into a stranglehold, removed most means of resistance, and then ganked for a bit. Did not do much for the round. The power heads can wield is pretty major, bigger than sec antags.

Command antags aren't actually too common, anyway. So I do not really think it'll affect things overmuch, not like adjusting sec antag ratios. But I'm not too in the know regarding that.

[geeves]

I agree with this. Command players should not be able to get antag. Command can influence rounds enough without needing antag tools. Newbies should be able to trust and be taught by their relevant command members.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

I agree with this. Having been there for the head of staff antagonist round Cybs is referring to, I can safely say it was one of the least fun rounds I have ever had: anything and everything that could be used to fight against the combination of an antagonist RD, two antagonist security officers, and two ninjas was rapidly shut down by the hellish array of antagonist armed with the most frightening equipment science could produce and supported by two ninjas. Any coordination done over the radio was shut down by the RD, our PDAs were cut off, security was either imprisoned or murdered, ERT was unavailable, and even an emergency shuttle call seemed to be out of our reach. My other experiences with antagonist heads of staff have been equally unpleasant, ranging from being called into their office for "a discussion of your projects" then walking out with half of my blood missing, watching a RD vampire turn their entire department into a coven, and seeing a traitor CMO implant people in surgery with explosives for reasons beyond the pale.

Perhaps the worst part of head of staff antagonists is that they absolutely ruin a department's coordination unless a robusto steps up to the plate and puts their foot down to coordinate a department while lacking authority, command channel access, and access. I'd rather lose the possibility of good on-station head of staff antagonist gimmicks than have to suffer through another round like the one Cybs and I experienced. You can't really coordinate a department and teach its new players while also playing a traitor.

[Carver]

There's an argument to be made that changeling and vampire are at their most thematic in a head role. But thematics can't separate that both are rather unenjoyable to deal with in said head roles.

[Doxxmedearly]

Another idea pitched was to give these heads of staff mindshield implants like captain and HoS have. This would make them immune to cult conversion, being revolutionaries, borers, mind control spells, some vampire powers, and psionic influence. 

I personally don't like the idea because I think that having some heads of staff be vulnerable to influence and high-risk high-reward targets is important for antags, especially revs. However I'm curious to hear the community's thoughts.

[Arrow768]

For now I would go without the additional implants.

[geeves]

I agree, no mindshields for the others.

[Doxxmedearly]

That's where I was leaning. We'll nix the idea for now and if it needs to be revisited another time in the future it can be. 

[Wigglesworth Jones]

I like this idea. Head of Staff antagonists don't add much good, in my opinion. 

[Playbahnosh]

On 12/03/2020 at 00:46, Doxxmedearly said:

However, limiting powergaming through mechanics is something that happens all the time.

And that is a huge problem! Powergaming is a player issue, not a mechanics issue. Punish the player, not the game! Good thing there is a system for this: rules and guidelines.
Removing something because it could be abused, or people are not utilizing it as intended, is absolute nonsense. By this logic, you could remove 3/4th of the entire game right now.

On 12/03/2020 at 00:46, Doxxmedearly said:

A major thought behind this PR is that command antags have shown time and time again that they use their advantages to establish dominance in a round rather than facilitating fun and engaging RP for players.

Heads being antags presents a very powerful way of storytelling in the right hands. Also, this is why head positions are whitelisted, right? So you can find the "right hands". Being a head is privilege one gains through a selection process. Therefore, you trust the people you allowed to play these roles to be able to RP in a good way that facilitates a narrative. If this is not the case, or there are issues with heads not willing/able to use the roles and tools at their disposal well enough, that's a HR problem, not a game mechanic problem. Either take a hard look at the whitelist process or friggin bwoink the living daylights out of heads who forgot their place and/or jobban them on the spot.

Removing even the possibility for certain people to RP in certain ways, limiting everyone else's options and freedoms because some people can't seem to follow the rules is asinine. 

[Doxxmedearly]

This thread is 7 months old and has long since been merged. I know you're really excited about your campaign against the suggestions subforum but you don't need to necro a thread. If you wish to revert this go and post a suggestion to do so.

edit: Moving to completed projects and locking.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Doxxmedearly